Objectification

The object-subject relation, where one or more is objectified and the other subjectified creates "merged people" where there is only one subject(controlee) and the rest are objects(controlled). They form a single "whole person".

Let us dissect how this happens. The person is initially abused to obey commands by aggression. This is standard fear learning. The person learns to fear the subject, more so it learns that disobeying the subject leads to the stressful situation.

In order to adapt to this fear the person learns to desire succesful command completion. And in the face of succesful command completion the person becomes elated, happy.

At this point it stopped resisting aggression and made peace with its object status - because it learned a way to cope and accepted the rules of its new reality. It has succesfully become an object. And it wants to become a better, perfect object and even finds it rewarding.

What this really means is that the object adopts desires of the subject(as commands) and DEPENDS on the subject for succesfull completion cue. It can not stop desiring the completion cue because of the threat of the fear of punishment underneath. Once it is near completion the object will get elated(as there is more chance of success than failure), but will be unable to resolve completion without removing the fear underneath by submitting the results to his subject for review. Only when the subject cues he is pleased, the underlying fear is removed and the object can finally stop desiring(and fearing).

We can see that the object surrendered its ability determine success for itself to its subject and from this stems that if the original subject is removed, the person embodying the object can not function. It can not stop desiring because it can not remove the fears underneath until someone external(embodying the subject) removes the fear that caused desiring. This should sound familiar.


Coverts and Madonna/Whore

The madonna/whore complex is thought to be a consequence of not resolving the oedipal complex resulting in the famous fear of castration. It is thought that the father figure should have facilitated the resolving of oedipal complex.

IMO, the fear of castration is created out of emphasized object-subject relations of the mother and son.

When adult, the covert NPDer with madonna/whore complex fears women as they embody the original subject(mother). The adult person does not want to be an object, to be objectified. So it fears women because of threat of objectification that happened from the original mother. But the adult person also wants to be normal and have a relationship which forces it to go after women he fears. The result is quite interesting.

The person has an fear of being objectified by women. In the covert NPDer this fear is quite untolerable for an adult male as it is infact fear of being dominated solely by assertive words of the woman.
The fear causes the paranoid schizoid state which in turn causes the person to desire a situation where the fear is not existant, to deny it, reduce it. This situation is madonna/whore. Both sides of the coins purpose is to reduce fear of objectification/castration.

Desiring the woman to be the perfect subject or perfect object.

The result of this desire is the person finds itself to worthless compared to such a madonna. The cartoonish nature of the desired situation makes the person seem like a toad next to a princess.

This in turn results in the person thinking that the reward(the princess) is unattainable for a "toad" - which, in the mind of the person, justifies the immobilizing fear. The person thinks it's not afraid - it's just smart - it knows when it's gonna fail, and the underlying feeling of fear is felt to be an emotion that proves the person is smart more so than just scared. So it feels right to be immobilized in the given situation of toad vs. princess but infact the true reason is denied, muddled, deluded.

The covert wants to play the perfect object for the madonna. The angel girl is imagined the girl that is happy to have the covert do *anything* for her. She is imagined as a perfect subject that gives completion cues for anything the covert does.

The covert can consciously again reverse this superficialy, by consciously forcing themselves to insult women as whores because of inability vs. peer pressure(this is akin to covert false superiority). This on the other hand is just superficial and they are easily scared by a self-asserting woman.
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Re: Dissecting NPD thought process
by addx » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:35 am
Subjectification

Subjectification is a process of overgratifying, overcatering to a person - made to be a subject. The serving objects increase reward expectancy of the subject and also cause the subject to atrophy their own object role. The subject becomes increasingly unable to perform the object role for himself, he DEPENDS the other objects.

This generates a fear of losing the serving objects and becoming helpless. This fear is intolerable for the subject so it must be denied. It is denied by a desire that the subject is deserving of the objects, that he owns them. This is the cartoonish situation in the mind of the subject where he is king and they are servants.

This situation creates a paranoid mindset of overfocusing on cues of object "unloyalty" fueled by the fear and aggresively correcting the object behavior through the effects of following the desire that they are his.

Detection of very possible object loss reflexively increases the fear causing an increased reaction of denying the fear. The fear of very possible object loss is denied by desiring that the object is worthless and thus the object loss is irrelevant. The result of such a desire is intense devaluing of the object.


Overts and Madonna/Whore

Unlike coverts, overts have been subjectified by their original subject(mother). The above described mind state of subjectified people makes the subject think all objects, including women belong to him(they just don't know it yet).

This makes the overt operate under the fear of loss in relation to women. This fear must be denied and it is denied as it described above - by devaluing the object. So, the overt tends to "cast" the whore more so than the madonna.

The overt can consciously force to treat a woman like a madonna just to get her. He may do it temporarily and really believe it, cast it, in order to fulfill a possible desire for a perfect relationship(which requires a madonna, not a whore) but he will consider her a whore underneath and it will be revealed once the the desire has ran its course.
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Re: Dissecting NPD thought process
by addx » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:10 pm
Summing it up

We can see how subject-object relations inevitably result in increased subjectification(deobjectification) of one person and objectification(desubjectification) of the other.

Neither of the two people are independent of each other. Together they form a whole person.

The object is basicly a covert narcissist. As Sam Vankin already wrote, the covert narcissist depends on the overt narcissist. The covert narcissist can not receive praise without the overt narcissist giving the completion cue, he is suspicious of it even. It needs the overt narcissist to filter the praise to him as has already been noticed, but not explained, by Sam Vankin. The overt narcissist in turn needs his object and is helpless without it.

Both the subject and the object become paranoid-schizoid where one considers himself dominant, alpha and the other a servant, beta.

Since both employ the paranoid-schizoid mind state they are both narcissistic in their effort to become the perfect subject or perfect object to escape from dependency on the other half.

The perfect subject as imagined by the overt narcissist does not worry about losing his objects - he is perfect.

The perfect object as imagined by the covert narcissist does not worry about losing his subject(who is necessary for completion cues) - he is perfect.

The relationship of subject-object can function on many levels.

Obviously if the subject and object are perfect the relationship will function.

However if the subject is in crisis(losing objects) he will increase the grip on the objects remaining. Increasing grip means increasing fear will cause the mentioned desire that the objects are worthless. This will in turn cause the subject to become increasingly sadistic as the low worth objects that he own don't deserve anything better.

We can see how object and subject status causes increased madonna/whore problems and how they are symmetrical between the overt and the covert. Both employ the madonna/whore but are flip sides. Both believe in one side but consciously compensate. Both can be caused to believe the flip side by synergizing with the temporary desire.

Anyway, does anyone see some sense it this or is it just me?

I have gone here beyond narcissism. The object-subject relations are typical of all humans as is hiding fears with desires. These issues are just overly exaggerated in more obvious narcissists. The object-subject relations, objectification-subjectification are the basis for all human abuse and all PDs. NPD as such seems to be pure, while other PDs seem to have extra traumas causing symptom focal points when comparing to NPD which seems to feature quite evenly spread symptoms of narcissism.

The object-subject relations depend on the brain mechanism of social hierarchical order/self-esteem which is an age old mechanism in evolutionary sense which is why it can take over the more "fragile"/"finer" newer social mechanisms of mammals and more so humans and great apes.

This is the mechanism that supports taming animals. Taming a horse for example consists on objectifying the horse by forcing him to submit. Once the horse realises there's no point in fighting he becomes the object, he hides the fear of being owned by the desire to serve, same as our objectified covert narcissist. Non-mammal animals can not be tamed, they don't seem to have the ability to hide their fears with desires - this is akin to psychopaths which also can not be tamed.

Humans overly emphasize object-subject relations as part of the civilization heritage which is causing increased narcissism. Which is why many of you here, who do not relate that much to NPD have found yourselves in my texts. I am describing both the human condition and narcissism as an exaggerated form of the human condition.

We can also see how narcissism is a devious beast and that narcissist automatically without conscious decision simply position their mind set into the best possible delusional position. It makes them seem calculated but infact their subconscious/inner child is calculated, they can't really detect this, they are manipulated by their own inner child and lack of awareness. Which is why they are so believable.
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