Idealization as a symptom

shanzeek wrote:I have a lot of my father's traits, I catch myself being unintentionally cold or rude to my mother, or selfish, or even machiavellistic if I really want something, but I always side with an underdog and I would never intentionally hurt another being, I despise lies, manipulation and envy that I've so often seen in both my father and ex, I think it's one of the reasons I find this admiration that we mentioned here as a positive trait, my father was never in his entire life able to admit to another person being good at something and genuinely mean it. He'd always compare me to all my friends even though I was happy for my friends' success, yet he only ever saw them as my opponents. I find that pathetic and unlike him/them I enjoy seeing other people excell at things.

Thanks for sharing your story!

Interesting. That competitive nature, and seeing threats in everyone else's successes is a definite red-flag that makes me think the person is covering up self-esteem issues with over compensation. A common NPD trait for sure.

On the flip side, if that is how someone reacts, it ends up being a no-win to challenge them on it. Even if you are right, and see the red-flag clearly, we can really only adjust our sense of what is healthy admiration.

For the cluster B types who are hyper-reactive to this ego threat, they can misread others, but they also can be surprisingly in-tune with subtleties. A sincere admiration of anyone else can still be perceived as a threat (often more so if it's someone of the same sex), but if there is any whiff of 'and I am telling you this to get a rise out of you, or to get even, or to see how you'll react', odds are they will perceive that too

shanzeek wrote:

I'm a little jealous actually, although that's probably just my distorted view on the matter.

Because..?

Well because it gave the impression he actually gave a damn, although I can see that may not have been the case.
My father would brag about my academic stuff to his cronies, since retiring he's got himself involved in local government (at a very low level) and it's all about presenting himself in the best light. However he never displayed any pride or encouragement to me. When I actually did do well and graduated he reacted jealously, tried to do another degree of his own but failed and there were several years of bitching about the uselessness of academic pursuits.
Mum on the other hand viewed the whole thing as some sort of unpleasant duty and would ring me up regularly to berate me for not working hard enough and would fly off the handle if I even suggested that I did anything else other than work 9 to 9. When I graduated and pointed out that I couldn't put in any more work because I couldn't do any better than I did, she took the position that the degree was somehow the result of her hard work, and still continually berates me to this day for the amount of time she "had" to spend on the phone berating me while I was doing the degree. Although this is also the same woman who used to yell at me for not being happy enough, so what the logic was here is beyond me.

shanzeek wrote:This is what my ex is doing, obsessively exploring philosophy, Lacan and Nietzsche only to find new ways to gain power. I do it too, but out of curiosity, not because I want to conquer the world lol.

Ah the existentialist phase, for me it was about 17 when I got a whole load of old books from an uncle which contained a battered dual copy of twilight of the idols/the antichrist and other stuff of a similar nature. Has he had a poke round national socialism and it's left wing or esoteric kin yet? Or is it only politically correct sources of "power"?

TBH when i did it I was looking for a way of living that might make me feel better about myself, which obviously wasn't possible.

I have a lot of my father's traits, I catch myself being unintentionally cold or rude to my mother, or selfish, or even machiavellistic if I really want something, but I always side with an underdog and I would never intentionally hurt another being, I despise lies, manipulation and envy that I've so often seen in both my father and ex, I think it's one of the reasons I find this admiration that we mentioned here as a positive trait, my father was never in his entire life able to admit to another person being good at something and genuinely mean it. He'd always compare me to all my friends even though I was happy for my friends' success, yet he only ever saw them as my opponents. I find that pathetic and unlike him/them I enjoy seeing other people excell at things.

this sounds familiar, although In my case the mother/father positions are reversed. My dad's no barrel of fun but he's an absolute picnic compared to my mother in full swing and does tend to get the $#%^ end of the stick.

The admiration aspect I don't recognise, I have found that my own narcissism tends to be reactionary rather than a static trait. Narcissistic or histrionic behaviour is a bit like a red flag to a bull when it comes to making me annoyed. I usually feel compelled to inflict some reality on them, fighting fire with fire if I have to. The same goes for my more ruthless behaviours, if I feel others are playing fair with me they don't tend to come up. The only time I use them offensively is if the harm of not acting is substantially worse, otherwise I tend to be honest, often brutally so. I respect ability but admire virtue, or less romantically put, I think abilities are only as good as the use they are put to. Obviously in practice this does mean I can come across as a bit grim and puritanical or even nihilistic.

^when i often read stories about mean parents ,i wonder why my dad didn't give a ###$ what i was doing in general and never competed. i did listen to him talk constantly about how great he is and admirable and grandiose delusional fantasies,that could convince you at first that were real. but knowing him and his lack of hard work and responsibility and wanting easy gain,it was delusional.
all he wanted was me to admire him and believe how important he was. if he had that, he wasn't mean at all nor cared what i was doing. what is that? is it aspd traits? or he was just more kind.
he would get mad if i didn't believe his lies and his blame shifting. as long as i kept away from intimacy he didn't give a ###$. and i could have very charming intelligent conversations with him.
@shazneek i think this is the trap that you think they are emotional. they talk about art and philosophy etc but no intimacy.
also i must have surpressed memories because i was afraid of him and wanted to avoid him constantly and had no clue why. my mother said it was my problem and she didn't understand why i felt like this.
but i really enjoyed conversations with him. he was the educated so i found him more interesting.
but i loved my mother way more ,even if she didn't have enough knowledge but she was more there for me emotionally. and i would choose her over him any time. although he was more interesting intellectually. i felt more comfortable with my mother like i could be myself.
i wish i could tell that to therapy lol.
(i bet my mother had complex and i can see it that she is not smart enough.)
and that emotional connection i had with her felt better than all the intelligence and admiration didn't mean a thing.but my mother sucks for other reasons ,too codependent
maybe he did try to influence me what to become and the university but he didn't care enough to push me too much nor compete. he was so irresponsible all he cared about was superficial gain and looking admirable. i think he found me more clever than my mother because of university.

xdude wrote:

shanzeek wrote:I have a lot of my father's traits, I catch myself being unintentionally cold or rude to my mother, or selfish, or even machiavellistic if I really want something, but I always side with an underdog and I would never intentionally hurt another being, I despise lies, manipulation and envy that I've so often seen in both my father and ex, I think it's one of the reasons I find this admiration that we mentioned here as a positive trait, my father was never in his entire life able to admit to another person being good at something and genuinely mean it. He'd always compare me to all my friends even though I was happy for my friends' success, yet he only ever saw them as my opponents. I find that pathetic and unlike him/them I enjoy seeing other people excell at things.

Thanks for sharing your story!

Interesting. That competitive nature, and seeing threats in everyone else's successes is a definite red-flag that makes me think the person is covering up self-esteem issues with over compensation. A common NPD trait for sure.

On the flip side, if that is how someone reacts, it ends up being a no-win to challenge them on it. Even if you are right, and see the red-flag clearly, we can really only adjust our sense of what is healthy admiration.

For the cluster B types who are hyper-reactive to this ego threat, they can misread others, but they also can be surprisingly in-tune with subtleties. A sincere admiration of anyone else can still be perceived as a threat (often more so if it's someone of the same sex), but if there is any whiff of 'and I am telling you this to get a rise out of you, or to get even, or to see how you'll react', odds are they will perceive that too

exactly this. i feel there is a thin line between sanity and insanity. how do you know if is real or not.
for example i triggered someone on purpose or i was honestly upset but it was subtle and he was the only one who reacted in comparison with nons. he did the same to me. but the threat wasn't imaginary. i was upset indeed and he was the only one who reacted and vise versa.and that was so alluring believe it or not. i wanted only him badly .although he didn't honestly care. but the trap was huge.

between all the nutcases in my family. i had 4 who kind of raised me. i only wanted my mom.if they battled who i would want more,the narcissist wouldn't won at all,nor the intelligence.maybe the money would won. but without money the one who had more empathy in comparison. but she was too passive and completely and annoyingly codependent.
she had no personality on her own. she gives silent treatments all the time. and goes from to clingy to never speak to me again. so i do have resentment for her too.but if i had to choose from all the nutcases,i would pick her. i wonder if there is a connection in how i chose people in my life with how i was raised,obviously i choose so wrong and i am afraid of intimacy

*out of the 4 i hated the non most of all so much bleh. probably he wasn't the most empathetic either,probably codependent

julllia wrote:exactly this. i feel there is a thin line between sanity and insanity. how do you know if is real or not.
for example i triggered someone on purpose or i was honestly upset but it was subtle and he was the only one who reacted in comparison with nons. he did the same to me. but the threat wasn't imaginary. i was upset indeed and he was the only one who reacted and vise versa.and that was so alluring believe it or not. i wanted only him badly .although he didn't honestly care. but the trap was huge.

It's real in that our reactions are what they are, and the same for others, but of course, what you likely really mean is how do we know if our reactions (and others), are valid/normal, or over reacting?

I use a mental analogy personally (sorry it's kind of cruel sounding)...

Dogs enjoy playing outdoors. If someone beats their pet at a young age for playing outdoors, nothing can entirely fix that. Even if a new owner comes along and is sweet and kind, an abused dog is always going to feel a deep seated sense of fear and cower when going outdoors.

We really cannot entirely undo implicit self-esteem damage either. We can cover it up to a degree with explicit self-esteem accomplishments and other builders, but the implicit self-esteem has been programmed, and that cannot be fixed/changed. It got wired in at an early age, and it's going to be that way, in the background, for an entire life.

What we can do is acknowledge it vs running from it, or trying forever to change what cannot be changed. It's also potentially possible to turn it into a kind of positive. In particular, to learn from it and use it to grow empathy for others. It could also be a foundation for becoming very good at something else in life, such as a creative pursuit, or communicating with others.

There is a potential truth in the idea that some of the most potent people in life are so because it comes from a place of personal hardship.

Just my personal belief, but when a painful core foundation is embraced, idealization has a way of dissipating too. The simplified ideals, that once seemed so appealing, have a way of becoming 'blah', boring, and the richer (and sometimes painful), depth of personality eventually has greater appeal.

I am thinking that i am afraid of intimacy probably this is why i could go along with abusive situations.or i am fine with idealization but then i can't go on.but i can't deal without intimacy for long either. While pds are ok with that maybe i wonder. But it is very very painful to realize that it was never care nor love but low self-esteem.
I mean for me to be subtle ,nons don't give a ###$ and a borderline for example would lose it. Felt like someone cared. The irony when my aunt or mother did the same i resented them so much i wanted to escape but when someone is attractive is easy to act stupid.
I hope to learn from my mistakes.like never follow a narcissist again.that only cares about himself.
The intimacy would be difficult without therapy so i am ###$

Hey jullia,

BPD types are sometimes abused, and sometimes hyper sensitive people, and more likely a combination of both, and we spiral down into our tormented hell, nobody loves me. This is what we do.

If you can put that aside, what would make you happy? This is where most of us with BPD fail. We know how to embrace what makes us unhappy, but have no clue what we want to be happy.

I have no clue. Probably is rhetorical question but i am going to answer.

Most people know how to be happy? I think i am depressed.
With that question i got myself depressed, like is impossible to be happy. I want to be in love with someone who loves me back. Seems impossible lol.to be synchronized.
Or to have passion about something ,so a reason to be happy.but i don't know how to do that.
To feel safe economically. With this economy we are screwed.
But don't most people want all these. Are they more specific. Because around me i feel everyone is lost.
Maybe they know how to find passion for something and do it but i don't know how. I doubt all these people around me know though. But they do seem more happy or not depressed

@julllia,

Yes, well a therapist asked me the same question and I admit, I was stumped. The T basically said it's a habit, always looking for something to go wrong, and it's hard to change though they had some good suggestions of how, it's still a hard habit to break.

I'm wondering, does idealization make people feel better? I rarely idealized in the past, can't recall when I last did, so not sure how that feels.

I don't know if it was the idealization. I just felt better to feel someone needs me as much as i need him. Like there was a reason to exist. I think it was the codependency and not the idealization that makes you feel better. But also worse.i wasn't happy.

It is not a habit is reality.is not imaginary.
Something bad just happened now. Life sucks i hate it.i can't find peace.I have actual trauma from my family and i feel always something bad is going to happen. I can't explain in the forum but living in an unstable environment that always something bad happened for real.That is general though.
Are you talking specific about relationships. I have specific trauma i can remember there but i am not sure if it is only from that.when i was teenager. But probably is general from all my relationships.

-- Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:23 pm --

But also when you are infatuated you have something to pass time with. You think that and is less boring. Lately it is getting very difficult to feel it too

-- Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:26 pm --

I imagine the therapist asking what makes you happy and then try to get it.
Nothing makes me happy and even if it did i couldn't get it anyway ,i don't see how.