Idealization as a symptom

shanzeek wrote:

Yes, I think we are perhaps falling into the common trap of assuming that a personality trait finds the person as a whole.

This sounds a bit patronizing..
Seemed like a very interesting fact in your biography, but one you'd never expect to be there. Mental note - should stop jumping to conclusions about people.

lol, it does a bit. Sorry about that I was dictating rather than typing that time (hence why defines became finds) and that first line was a kind of mental preamble while I arranged my thoughts.

I meant to say that "hsp" is just a term to describe someone who fulfils greater than 50% of the criteria on the SPS test. It's an innate sensory trait, to do with the way brain processes data, which occurs in 20% of the population to a greater or lesser degree.
If you've not read Elaine Aron's book already, it's worth a look as it's one of those terms which tends to be warped in mainstream usage.

In me it's obvious enough that my boss has commented on it, but it's not what you'd expect based on short term contact.

My father had very high expectations of me, so he sent me abroad to (first learn the language) and then study law. I always knew what I really wanted to study (and it wasn't law), but I went with it. Due to money spent to offer me this opportunity, to his high expectations, attempts to handle it all in foreign language, I have never in my life felt more stuck or isolated. I eventually "cracked" from all the pressure. Long story short, I spent months (completely isolated myself from the outside world) preparing for the entrance exam at academy of the performing arts (they only accept 3-5 people per department), and (to my parents' surprise) got in. Not sure about the correct translation, but it's drama/playwrighting/screenwriting department.
I'm fighting the urge to delete all this, for some reason I don't feel as comfortable as you seem to be when talking about it.

it's longer ago for me which probably changes things, I've had more time to make peace with it. Also I avoided getting into the emotional aspect quite as much.
I can't say I identify much as my parents were less financially and emotionally involved being more the "we don't care what you do but we'll punish you if you fail" variety but I certainly understand the pressure. I'm a little jealous actually, although that's probably just my distorted view on the matter.

In me it's obvious enough that my boss has commented on it, but it's not what you'd expect based on short term contact.

I was surprised by you getting involved in extreme metal scene, not HSP. (:
I didn't read the book yet but I have it on to-read-list, somebody already mentioned it around here so I downloaded the scale from EA's website as a lot of it seemed relatable. I did read "Revisiting Jung’s concept of innate sensitiveness" by the same author though - https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachments/36190/japaronjune04sensitiveness.pdf

(btw, I'm fully aware some of my (pop) psychology-related questions around here were begging to be "patronized", still I'm grateful you avoided doing so, despite the temptation .)

Also I avoided getting into the emotional aspect quite as much.

Always a good idea..

I can't say I identify much as my parents were less financially and emotionally involved being more the "we don't care what you do but we'll punish you if you fail" variety but I certainly understand the pressure.

Well my father could be described as becoming financially and emotionally detached after all this. And I perfectly understand it, as he only wanted best for me, hence all the guilt and discomfort when talking about this.

Pretty cool that you've managed it all without their financial and emotional involvement.

I'm a little jealous actually, although that's probably just my distorted view on the matter.

Because..?

julllia wrote:Why .don't delete. I want to learn more. I like reading others like quoth's story.
I have major paranoia though to write anything online.
I would hate if anyone from real life knew . especially about disorders or suicidal things. Do you ever feel they would fire you if they knew or stop trusting you.

Well I don't have the habit of opening up to too many people irl, so I guess lot of them would be surprised to read some of the things I wrote around here. But this was more about experiencing negative emotions when reminiscing this period.

What about you, do you have a story to share?

and for women; its normal to put a mans status through the roof! thats normal!

Is it? It might make them (us..) lose sight of things. Still, liking the optimism in your tone.

When I have a crush on someone, I have a crush! its normal!
My feelings are OK! its just a bit weird at first when you start feeling things for people!

shanzeek wrote:

julllia wrote:Why .don't delete. I want to learn more. I like reading others like quoth's story.
I have major paranoia though to write anything online.
I would hate if anyone from real life knew . especially about disorders or suicidal things. Do you ever feel they would fire you if they knew or stop trusting you.

Well I don't have the habit of opening up to too many people irl, so I guess lot of them would be surprised to read some of the things I wrote around here. But this was more about experiencing negative emotions when reminiscing this period.

What about you, do you have a story to share?

love an opportunity to ramble lol. since you both told about your parents.
one thing i did was i hated status so much that i started appreciating the shock value.i went there in the opposite direction.i was failling to be shocking myself but i dangerously chased that idea in others and generally.and it didn't even bothered my father. i openly talked to him and discussed it .imagine discussing the political system and anarchism but never having real intimacy .although he loved power and status. my aunt was just annoying and insecure and close minded. i guess my father had status growing up and education but she had violence and was poor and no education.like my mother

i will not be completely straight forward with details because paranoia.
and sorry for my ramble.
i don't have anything interesting, my job is a nice environment and subject in comparison with other jobs.still not something i am passionate about so is depressing. i do feel lucky although i don't feel safe for future.and not enough money. but my life was so unstable that in comparison is a bless. but i still don't feel safe nor passionate about it
i think my dad delusionally wanted me to be a diplomat or like him to con.like always he had the big fantasy and charm , without no real basis and hard work that requires to get there and responsibility and i have no self direction. but he definitely had the superficial charm to convince most people at first for anything until he hurt you after a while.
my self direction is problematic and self sabotaging.he didn't help me there but made it worse.
the interesting thing is i read the overt narcissist value their kids more than their wives(coverts are more mean and jealous)and he did value me more than his wife ,because he saw me more like his extension.
now that i read psychology i can see he used psychological manipulation and he was Machiavellian .growing up i swear he even openly admitted he wants to manipulate others and read about it.in philosophy etc.he gained money from this illegally apparently at some point and i never knew what he was doing exactly he was hiding and gaslighting until i was very old. i see growing up with him i have same train of thoughts but nomatter how much he wanted me to be like him maybe,i don't want to hurt others.nor take advantage of the weakest.i find it upsetting.
maybe you could learn to be manipulative (the whole mentality of this: https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/MACH-IV/
i would score high because i see people as enemy but to put aside morals i can't do this. i don't trust anyone and i see others as enemy but i have no desire to hurt them to gain money. i couldn't live like him. i have feelings that he didn't have like i want to feel safe.he couldn't feel unsafe.
maybe he wasn't that bad because he hurt me deeply and screw me up and i am angry at him.but i still don't want to hurt others,so he must have done something right.the mind ###$ of always saying how empathetic he is and supported that while doing the opposite i can't explain sufficiently.
i felt he was kind to me while he screwed me up

sorry for being out of subject a little but i guess i can found a match with idealization too. what i found very interesting ,who are the weakest and most gullible who will idealize someone that will prey on them.
reading about psychology a simple example anyone can find

dependent - dependent people need to be loved and are therefore gullible and liable to say yes to something to which they should say no.
immature - has impaired judgment and so tends to believe exaggerated advertising claims.
naïve - cannot believe there are dishonest people in the world, or takes it for granted that if there are any, they will not be allowed to prey on others.
impressionable - overly seduced by charmers. For example, they might vote for the seemingly charming politician who kisses babies.
trusting - people who are honest often assume that everyone else is honest. They are more likely to commit themselves to people they hardly know without checking credentials, etc., and less likely to question so-called experts.
lonely - lonely people may accept any offer of human contact. A psychopathic stranger may offer human companionship for a price.
narcissistic - narcissists are prone to falling for unmerited flattery.
impulsive - make snap decisions about, for example, what to buy or whom to marry without consulting others.
altruistic - the opposite of psychopathic: too honest, too fair, too empathetic.
frugal - cannot say no to a bargain even if they know the reason it is so cheap.
materialistic - easy prey for loan sharks or get-rich-quick schemes.
greedy - the greedy and dishonest may fall prey to a psychopath who can easily entice them to act in an immoral way.
masochistic - lack self-respect and so unconsciously let psychopaths take advantage of them. They think they deserve it out of a sense of guilt.
the elderly - the elderly can become fatigued and less capable of multi-tasking. When hearing a sales pitch they are less likely to consider that it could be a con. They are prone to giving money to someone with a hard-luck story. See elder abuse.

Quoth wrote:hmm that is not quite how it works. The egosyntonic nature of many personality disorders means that people with them often see their symptoms at strengths or just not a problem.Equally many personality disorders enjoy discussing themselves but that is not the same as trying to acquire self-knowledge

Take the paranoid for example, his eternal vigilance is in his own eyes a virtue in a hostile world. Likewise a narcissist may interpret their grandiosity as ambition. Dependents do not see themselves as dependents, obsessive-compulsives think themselves ordered not disordered in comparison to other people.

BPD is something of an exception due to the sensation of emptiness it creates

I don't know the experience others have, but yea, it does appear that some extreme personality types perceive their extremes as positives. Wanting to see ourselves in a positive light does seem to be a human norm.

I agree too that BPD may be somewhat of an exception. Our introspection has a way of leading us down the rabbit hole of self-loathing, or at least emptiness. Of all the cluster B types, I think of BPD as those who have the least self-protective armor (i.e., a persona to hide behind). Of course that doesn't mean that is immediately apparent to others, and at times we can even appear as an ideal, until we cannot anymore.

For whatever it's worth, being someone who is on the highly sensitive person side of the scale can be a downer too. It can leave one isolated in a crowd of the norm. On the plus side, it is at least an explanation for something I didn't understand for much of my life. While I had a sense that I was different, it really wasn't clear to me that the reason others enjoy loud, large groups, extroversion, etc., was because they aren't experiencing life like I do. For me that rapidly turns into a painful (literally) overload. I liken it to what I am hearing as volume 10 (an image to use), they are hearing maybe a 1 through 3. Still it is impossible to explain to most others that the overload of sensation (yes physical too), really does reach the point of being painful. They cannot conceive that my experience is different than theirs.

No particular point other than being a self-aware BPD type doesn't change our fundamental personality. We don't suddenly turn into extroverts if we are introverts. We aren't going to suddenly just feel good about ourselves. About the only positive is we may not beat ourselves up as much for being different, and we may learn to warn others to back off before we reach our point of spiraling down. That is the problem with acting like an 'ideal'. Others come to expect far too much and then are shocked/hurt to find we can't be an ideal 24/7.

exactly because for them it feels like protection.is the defense they have (over previous abuse maybe).
but the worse is that even if you know logically that it's ok to not be ideal,you can't stop yourself from acting strange and have a defense response.
you can't stop the devaluation for example because is too painful if you do.
the most problematic i feel is that pds perceive kindness etc as weakness and is very difficult to trust again.
the bpd chameleon manipulation ,charm and being oversensitive so that you can read others and know what they want ,that is perceived as talent ,they don't want to loose it but is also very repressing to not know how to be yourself and self sabotaging

-- Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:33 pm --

lol dependents say that they are very empathetic and are hitting on my nerves. because they are empathetic only to the narcissist and noone else. they leave everyone else suffering and then claim that they are too empathetic

julllia wrote:the bpd chameleon manipulation ,charm and being oversensitive so that you can read others and know what they want ,that is perceived as talent ,they don't want to loose it but is also very repressing to not know how to be yourself and self sabotaging

I agree. We can be extremely aware of what others want, and can become an ideal, but only temporarily. We don't have much in the way of a mask to behind, but for the same reason, we can see through other's masks to what is behind.

We really aren't doing ourselves, or others, any real favor by morphing into their ideal. It's not really good for us, and will leave them hurt when the ideal comes crashing down (and it must, because it is not sustainable forever).

Idealization is a setup for disappointment.

julllia wrote:i openly talked to him and discussed it .imagine discussing the political system and anarchism but never having real intimacy

Same here.

i don't have anything interesting, my job is a nice environment and subject in comparison with other jobs.still not something i am passionate about so is depressing. i do feel lucky although i don't feel safe for future.and not enough money. but my life was so unstable that in comparison is a bless.

Do you have some hobbies, sports or anything like that, it doesn't have to necessarily be your profession that you're passionate about?

i think my dad delusionally wanted me to be a diplomat or like him to con.like always he had the big fantasy and charm , without no real basis and hard work that requires to get there and responsibility and i have no self direction.but he definitely had the superficial charm to convince most people at first for anything until he hurt you after a while.

Haha how familiar this sounds, my father always charmed his way through life.

the interesting thing is i read the overt narcissist value their kids more than their wives(coverts are more mean and jealous)and he did value me more than his wife ,because he saw me more like his extension.

This is how I felt while I was growing up, I genuinely think my father cared/s about me, so it's hard for me to perceive him in terms of only black or white.

now that i read psychology i can see he used psychological manipulation and he was Machiavellian .growing up i swear he even openly admitted he wants to manipulate others and read about it.in philosophy etc.

This is what my ex is doing, obsessively exploring philosophy, Lacan and Nietzsche only to find new ways to gain power. I do it too, but out of curiosity, not because I want to conquer the world lol.

he gained money from this illegally apparently at some point and i never knew what he was doing exactly he was hiding and gaslighting until i was very old. i see growing up with him i have same train of thoughts but nomatter how much he wanted me to be like him maybe,i don't want to hurt others.nor take advantage of the weakest.

I have a lot of my father's traits, I catch myself being unintentionally cold or rude to my mother, or selfish, or even machiavellistic if I really want something, but I always side with an underdog and I would never intentionally hurt another being, I despise lies, manipulation and envy that I've so often seen in both my father and ex, I think it's one of the reasons I find this admiration that we mentioned here as a positive trait, my father was never in his entire life able to admit to another person being good at something and genuinely mean it. He'd always compare me to all my friends even though I was happy for my friends' success, yet he only ever saw them as my opponents. I find that pathetic and unlike him/them I enjoy seeing other people excell at things.

Thanks for sharing your story!