Idealization as a symptom

Well not completely whatever i am still a mess . but not being in toxic environment is the only happiness i have.
But why does she have to stay in the room?

julllia wrote:But why does she have to stay in the room?

Because she's not aware I have any serious issues so she probably doesn't even know that I'd want her out of the room, and if I asked her to do wait outside, I think she'd find out about it afterwards anyways.
I hope to find a way to go incognito soon (to a therapist, not psychiatrist). I'm aware there won't be any meaningful progress until I do and I'm getting tired of same things in my life repeating, it's like that Bill Murray film where he keeps re-living the same day over and over again.

xdude wrote:

shanzeek wrote:Do you think it's a consious of subconscious process? I don't walk around with a list of criteria I have for people , I simply like to look back in the past, analyze and find patterns in things and people if there are any.

Well honestly from your posts, you come across as well balanced and introspective. Now I've known people who go off the deep-end idealizing and devaluing, but they also tend to shift perspectives rapidly (where rapidly could be as small as hours, or even every few days). Some black and white think is normal, it's really the extreme and frequency that stands out.

Plus, just my experience, they are either a.) typically not aware they think in extremes that go far beyond the norm, and/or b.) are aware, but cannot fathom why it's a problem, or strongly believe it's a positive personality trait (and so to whatever degree it affects their own happiness and their relationships, it's because of someone else who can't see/embrace 'the extreme truth' as clearly as they do).

That written, grey thinking is not necessarily something that comes naturally. Some grow into it as they mature, and have more experiences, and we can have grey think in some areas of life, black and white in others. Like I wrote early, from what you wrote, it seems like reasonable admiration vs what I think of when I use the word 'idealization' (an extreme)

Thank you , I do use Psychforums to question and test absolutely everything about myself, I'm very much open to identifying any kind of "deviation", it's why I'm here.

shanzeek wrote:If I understood correctly, codependency is not in DSM, it doesn't fall in any category of disorders yet it seems to share various traits with BPD/NPD (hence my months-long confusion)?

it was a term initially used to describe the unusual identity related behaviours of spouses and other family members of people with substance abuse disorders who enabled the addicts.

Typically it is regarded as sub-clinical as it is situation dependent however for those with whom it is a pervasive pattern of interpersonal behaviour, dependent personality disorder (cluster C) or BPD are likely.

I have a close BPD friend and I'm pretty good at spotting various manipulation techniques her past boyfriends used on her, yet when it comes to my own relationship I was completely blind to it for a long time, same goes for my BPD friend and her own relationships - blindness.

this is partially why self testing doesn't work, we're far to close to see clearly. That said I'm not surprised about your friend, certain personalities, including all of cluster B find introspective analysis especially difficult.

The way he treated those people is what made me stay and ocassionally visit what otherwise looked like the 9th gate of hell (his house, I mean, and its other often disordered, sometimes dangerous guests) , it was a pleasant surprise to see there are people out there willing not to give up on others. But then the stealing-and-turning-the other-cheek-thing kept repeating and it started to seem more and more like exploatation of this guy's genuine belief and it did make me angry and disappointed in human nature in general.

Well there are also those who find religion, there is a kind of "spiritual" aspect to trauma especially at the extreme end. I certainly have always felt like I learned some innate "truths" from my experience. That said they entirely come from the long term endurance of extreme physical pain, actually being abused was just unpleasant.

How people experience trauma disorders is very tightly hinged to the traumatic experience itself, many people suffer from intense guilt often due to their own lack of resistance which I guess may have driven this behaviour. Fundamentally everyone who experiences long-term abuse will take on traits of their abuser in one form or another, those who do not form some kind of psychological relationship are the exception not the rule.

In practice I feel more myself with them than anywhere else, though I will concede that if altruism isn't a substantial part of your make up it may prove difficult. It probably isn't "healthy" and as it did last time I tried describing emotional connections my description sounds batshit crazy.

Do you act altruistically in return?
A bit crazy , but very real.

I do, actually I find it easier to do things for others than I do for myself a lot of the time, though it does depend on the context. I find the action / self-sacrificing / thinking of others aspect comes very easily but displays of affection, kindness or sympathy are much, much harder.

I can understand this perfectly, and relate, my long-time childhood group of friends very much remind me of your description, I know the feeling of home, when with them, however the ones I met afterwards, by entering these "artistic" social circles (where my ex belongs as well)...they're very different and pretty amoral (or better, imoral) people and it took me a while to learn to adapt and appreciate them for their own positive traits instead of expecting them to be and act as my (trustworthy) childhood friends.
I asked about mutual core values because in my case, it would be impossible to ever gather around all my friends, they're way too different and a lot of them would dislike each other. I somehow feel this uniqueness you've managed to achieve somehow demonstrates a stable sense of identity/values you seek in others, in your case..and lack of it, in mine.

i have a similar experience, I split from the group for about 2 years when I went to uni, following issues with Lu. I got myself heavily involved in the extreme metal scene, particularly its ideological side . it's my own most dark and Narcissistic period, though frankly everyone there was pretty narcissistic and given the subject matter it's hardly surprising. your trailer about 80's West Berlin was strangely reminiscent of that period for me.

but I think all of us are asking the same question: will you love us as we love you?.Which is generally what everybody asks for in a relationship, it can be a big ask.

Big ask, but I'm guessing stronger bond, as well.

That's the aim at least. Though it does have some obvious drawbacks in terms of external group relationships. For everything there is a price.

In my own experience I have found that while I respect their various skill sets, it is their idiosyncrasies and frailties for which I feel the most affection.

This actually sounds like a definition of love, as it should be, and this whole discussion is becoming very disturbing as I feel I used to be a completely different person than I am now. I could never genuinely say this for my ex, I think that is why I'm so much focusing on his "skill sets", because loving some (ones directed towards harming or exploiting others) of his frailties would (and did) make me choose between him and everything I believe in. Now I feel like a hypocrite when even daring to discuss "right and wrong" with someone.

I think this is generally the case for psychological disorders of any stripe. I can remember a time when I didn't think and operate the same way I do now. Even following abusive experiences I was less internally dark than I am now. I spent quite a lot of time feeling puzzled as to how I got here.

I don't disagree here, but "what" might have a bigger significance to me than to an average person because my interests, my professional and personal life are tightly (and I mean tightly ) intertwined and it genuinely makes me sad and unfulfilled not being able to share it with the person that means that much to me. If the person is not from "my world" or they don't have a high percentage of similar interests, I start feeling misunderstood and like I'm forced to choose between the person and other things I love and that is making it harder for me to connect. I realize how unhealthy this sounds.

I understand this one too. I spent a large part of my life becoming a scientist and longer still becoming a doctor. Such pursuits are inevitably an all encompassing affair. Thing I found was that often I was more concerned with becoming "An Academic" or "A Doctor" than I was about the research or the practice of medicine. I also know what it is to pour your heart into something and have others treat it as an irrelevance. It's a case of different worlds, although I suspect that much of the use I encountered how to do with how threatening others found those worlds.

There is an undercurrent of a need to belong in your posts. Like you have an idea of what an artist looks like which you are aggressively pursuing on all fronts. Although perhaps I am simply projecting my own experience here. "Artist" becomes your identity as "scientist" was once mine. Through my own experience I found that there simply was no other option than to find out how to do this on my own terms, not those of the ideal. Although it should be noted I made two serious mistakes in this process and wasted years of education because of it.

Quoth wrote:Typically it is regarded as sub-clinical as it is situation dependent however for those with whom it is a pervasive pattern of interpersonal behaviour, dependent personality disorder (cluster C) or BPD are likely.

I checked DPD, I can't relate at all, I don't think this "dependency" of mine stretches into other areas of my life. I hope not at least.

That said I'm not surprised about your friend, certain personalities, including all of cluster B find introspective analysis especially difficult.

In theory, perhaps, but we (both me, my BPD friend and ex) spent a lot of our free time analyzing ourselves and each other, our reactions, triggers, past, etc. They were far more interested in "knowing thyself" than most nons.

Well there are also those who find religion, there is a kind of "spiritual" aspect to trauma especially at the extreme end. I certainly have always felt like I learned some innate "truths" from my experience.

This makes perfect sense actually, after an experience like that. Did they make you changes things in your life after learning it?

How people experience trauma disorders is very tightly hinged to the traumatic experience itself, many people suffer from intense guilt often due to their own lack of resistance which I guess may have driven this behaviour.

I regret not knowing more about PTSD while this guy was still around, I did hear him mention it but unfortunately I knew almost nothing about it at the time and all of us took it for granted, many things about him would make more sense..

I do, actually I find it easier to do things for others than I do for myself a lot of the time, though it does depend on the context. I find the action / self-sacrificing / thinking of others aspect comes very easily but displays of affection, kindness or sympathy are much, much harder.

I agree here with what you previously said somewhere around here, kindness and goodness are not the same thing.

i have a similar experience, I split from the group for about 2 years when I went to uni, following issues with Lu. I got myself heavily involved in the extreme metal scene, particularly its ideological side . it's my own most dark and Narcissistic period, though frankly everyone there was pretty narcissistic and given the subject matter it's hardly surprising. your trailer about 80's West Berlin was strangely reminiscent of that period for me.

I did not see this coming. Seriously? I remember you saying you're HSP. Wouldn't metal music, neon lights 'n places like the ones in West Berlin trailer affect you in a negative way? :still very surprised to learn this about you:

Even following abusive experiences I was less internally dark than I am now. I spent quite a lot of time feeling puzzled as to how I got here.

What type of darkness? (I always divide "darkness" in few sub-types in my head )

I understand this one too. I spent a large part of my life becoming a scientist and longer still becoming a doctor. Such pursuits are inevitably an all encompassing affair. Thing I found was that often I was more concerned with becoming "An Academic" or "A Doctor" than I was about the research or the practice of medicine.

I'm not 100% certain (due to translation) that we mean the same thing by "a doctor", but one of my parents is one (Doctor of medicine), yet I went in completely other direction. I think you actually mentioned a similar contradiction in ASPD "eyes" topic (when you politely explained why you feel contempt for most artists ), I guess it's not that uncommon.

I also know what it is to pour your heart into something and have others treat it as an irrelevance.

Not a very pleasant feeling.

There is an undercurrent of a need to belong in your posts. Like you have an idea of what an artist looks like which you are aggressively pursuing on all fronts. Although perhaps I am simply projecting my own experience here. "Artist" becomes your identity as "scientist" was once mine.

You're not projecting, or you are, but you're also right, it's exactly what I'm doing. And I do feel like I finally found my place, so I suppose that is why my views on relationships and people in general are "painted" by it.

Through my own experience I found that there simply was no other option than to find out how to do this on my own terms, not those of the ideal.

What do you mean by "doing it on your terms"?

Although it should be noted I made two serious mistakes in this process and wasted years of education because of it.

What kind of mistakes?
I have a similar experience, I was studying something completely unrelated to what I'm finishing now and (in my parent's eyes) I wasted couple of years on the wrong choices. At the time, I was only looking to get away from home. Still, I don't see it as waste of anything.

Quoth wrote:I understand this one too. I spent a large part of my life becoming a scientist and longer still becoming a doctor. Such pursuits are inevitably an all encompassing affair. Thing I found was that often I was more concerned with becoming "An Academic" or "A Doctor" than I was about the research or the practice of medicine. I also know what it is to pour your heart into something and have others treat it as an irrelevance. It's a case of different worlds, although I suspect that much of the use I encountered how to do with how threatening others found those worlds.

There is an undercurrent of a need to belong in your posts. Like you have an idea of what an artist looks like which you are aggressively pursuing on all fronts. Although perhaps I am simply projecting my own experience here. "Artist" becomes your identity as "scientist" was once mine. Through my own experience I found that there simply was no other option than to find out how to do this on my own terms, not those of the ideal. Although it should be noted I made two serious mistakes in this process and wasted years of education because of it.

Very cool Quoth. Explains why you have such depth of introspection.

Your last final point is key...

We don't learn by standing on the side lines and admiring, we learn by jumping in, and then after doing so, odds are the idealization of how it was going to be doesn't change a thing. It's still just us, and for those of us who are BPD males, no amount of success on the job (or whatever pursuit), is going to fix that. The only difference between me and a NPD male is the later still believes their own persona is them.

We can, at times, and temporarily, paint an ideal picture, but idealization is just imagery. The real us, and all other humans, isn't some ideal.

shanzeek wrote:

That said I'm not surprised about your friend, certain personalities, including all of cluster B find introspective analysis especially difficult.

In theory, perhaps, but we (both me, my BPD friend and ex) spent a lot of our free time analyzing ourselves and each other, our reactions, triggers, past, etc. They were far more interested in "knowing thyself" than most nons.

hmm that is not quite how it works. The egosyntonic nature of many personality disorders means that people with them often see their symptoms at strengths or just not a problem.Equally many personality disorders enjoy discussing themselves but that is not the same as trying to acquire self-knowledge

Take the paranoid for example, his eternal vigilance is in his own eyes a virtue in a hostile world. Likewise a narcissist may interpret their grandiosity as ambition. Dependents do not see themselves as dependents, obsessive-compulsives think themselves ordered not disordered in comparison to other people.

BPD is something of an exception due to the sensation of emptiness it creates

Well there are also those who find religion, there is a kind of "spiritual" aspect to trauma especially at the extreme end. I certainly have always felt like I learned some innate "truths" from my experience.

This makes perfect sense actually, after an experience like that. Did they make you changes things in your life after learning it?

Difficult to say really, my experience occurred as an adolescent and had many facets to it. Also much of my memory in relation to my early childhood is severely fragmented. It is somewhat difficult to know what changes the experience made, without a clear idea of what would have been had it not happened.

I did not see this coming. Seriously? I remember you saying you're HSP. Wouldn't metal music, neon lights 'n places like the ones in West Berlin trailer affect you in a negative way? :still very surprised to learn this about you:

Yes, I think we are perhaps falling into the common trap of assuming that a personality trait finds the person as a whole. I was clearly a very sensitive child, and I still score extremely highly (23/24) on tests of sensory processing sensitivity. However that the only really tells you that I score highly on that particular test's metric.

Metal itself is not a problem, that's not how sensory processing sensitivity works. If you listened to in a safe environment it's fine, most of its more violent aspects only existing in the abstract.

However going out to the clubs and bars was more difficult and did cause significant overload. I used to heavily self medicate with alcohol. It is also worth pointing out that I have some highly impulsive characteristics that cause me to "act out" doing overstimulating things. It hurts, but in some ways that's the point. Anything to make myself feel human.

Even following abusive experiences I was less internally dark than I am now. I spent quite a lot of time feeling puzzled as to how I got here.

What type of darkness? (I always divide "darkness" in few sub-types in my head )

There are varieties? I mean rage, sensations of emptiness, anxiety and a kind of creeping misanthropic psychosis.

I'm not 100% certain (due to translation) that we mean the same thing by "a doctor", but one of my parents is one (Doctor of medicine), yet I went in completely other direction. I think you actually mentioned a similar contradiction in ASPD "eyes" topic (when you politely explained why you feel contempt for most artists ), I guess it's not that uncommon.

yes, as in physician.

As for artists, I don't really hate them all per se. Two of my closest friends make their living through artistic means (three really, if you count design).
The issue stems from those who sacrifice people and life itself for the sake of "Art", if you get my meaning. This does indeed stem from my relationship with my parents, but that's quite complex issue.

Although it should be noted I made two serious mistakes in this process and wasted years of education because of it.

What kind of mistakes?
I have a similar experience, I was studying something completely unrelated to what I'm finishing now and (in my parent's eyes) I wasted couple of years on the wrong choices. At the time, I was only looking to get away from home. Still, I don't see it as waste of anything.

What do you mean by "doing it on your terms"?

Well I started University doing mechanical engineering, then rapidly transferred to chemistry, thankfully without losing any time. I finished that course but graduated early with a BSc as I'd managed to secure a place in a D.Phil course, specifically in radiation chemistry. My entire time doing chemistry I had been plagued by doubts that I should actually be doing physics, so I chose a field that bought me as far into the hinterland between the two subjects as it was possible to get. However I fell seriously ill during the first year of course. I remember my mum telling me that I was not cut out for it and curtly responding that I was who I wanted to be. As it turned out, I wasn't. The time away made me realise how deeply unhappy I was and that I wanted a career where I would be able to see the beneficial consequences of my actions. So I took graduate entry into medicine, which obviously pissed my parents off no end but they were slightly placated by the fact that my degree allowed me the choice any medical school I wanted. Graduate entry turned a six-year course into a four-year. Following graduation I was a junior doctor for a couple of years, after which my own ego and competitiveness made me choose cardiothoracic as my specialty, however 2 years in a nervous breakdown meant I was unable to continue. So I changed again to O&G which I finally completed. So about 4 years wasted, give or take.

By doing on my terms, I mean being the kind of doctor that my personality requires me to be, rather than being or trying to be the ideal that I think I should be.

Purely for curiosity what did you change from? Or to, for that matter? 'Artist' is a very broad category.

xdude wrote:We don't learn by standing on the side lines and admiring, we learn by jumping in, and then after doing so, odds are the idealization of how it was going to be doesn't change a thing. It's still just us, and for those of us who are BPD males, no amount of success on the job (or whatever pursuit), is going to fix that. The only difference between me and a NPD male is the later still believes their own persona is them.

That's absolutely right.

I will say that in the years I spent in one form of education or training, the primary thing I learned was that peace and identity have to come from within. Things I did, I did mostly to try to make myself feel better. However at the end of the day I was no less angry, empty and alienated, the discovery of which is how I ended up looking to psychology for answers.

Yes, I think we are perhaps falling into the common trap of assuming that a personality trait finds the person as a whole.

This sounds a bit patronizing..
Seemed like a very interesting fact in your biography, but one you'd never expect to be there. Mental note - should stop jumping to conclusions about people.

As for artists, I don't really hate them all per se.

I'm pretty sure you know I didn't actually think you do.

Purely for curiosity what did you change from? Or to, for that matter? 'Artist' is a very broad category.

My father had very high expectations of me, so he sent me abroad to (first learn the language) and then study law. I always knew what I really wanted to study (and it wasn't law), but I went with it. Due to money spent to offer me this opportunity, to his high expectations, attempts to handle it all in foreign language, I have never in my life felt more stuck or isolated. I eventually "cracked" from all the pressure. Long story short, I spent months (completely isolated myself from the outside world) preparing for the entrance exam at academy of the performing arts (they only accept 3-5 people per department), and (to my parents' surprise) got in. Not sure about the correct translation, but it's drama/playwrighting/screenwriting department.
I'm fighting the urge to delete all this, for some reason I don't feel as comfortable as you seem to be when talking about it.

I will say that in the years I spent in one form of education or training, the primary thing I learned was that peace and identity have to come from within. Things I did, I did mostly to try to make myself feel better.

I have a need to highlight this and leave it as another mental note to myself.

Why .don't delete. I want to learn more. I like reading others like quoth's story.
I have major paranoia though to write anything online.
I would hate if anyone from real life knew . especially about disorders or suicidal things. Do you ever feel they would fire you if they knew or stop trusting you.

Being in awe of someone is quit normal for me! Im thinking about them all the time! and for women; its normal to put a mans status through the roof! thats normal!
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When I have a crush on someone, I have a crush! its normal!
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My feelings are OK! its just a bit weird at first when you start feeling things for people!