Idealization as a symptom

shanzeek wrote:On your Lingchi topic (I think it was that one) you wrote about your experience with other PDs, and BPD "was not that bad either" ("either" referring to NPD).

The death from a 1000 cuts topic was about the very specific type of abuse necessary to create the dissociative form of ptsd. I dated and cohabited with a person officially diagnosed with BPD for two years while I was in manchester doing my chemistry degree. She didn't give a damn about anyone but herself, no cluster B is going to be able to get a hold on my personality and she wasn't abusive in any serious sense, at least not in a way that could cause psychological trauma. She didn't "burn me" because it was me who ended the relationship, twice, but she was sure as hell no empath.
My mother is a different story, I did actually write a whole thing explaining what she was like, but it was a bit fiery and I didn't see the need to be excessively triggering for julllia and xdude. She's also difficult to talk about because although she chose to be a monster and made sure I lived in pretty much constant terror for the first 16 years, she is still my mum and I'm not going to get another one. Ultimately I have always found denial a good strategy for dealing with her part in my history.

I wasn't about to talk about something as personal as that with the individuals in that thread.

You mean to say I label people I dislike with "NPD" label? You yourself were making a joke about labels, I simply went with it, also you're the one relating to the infamous "we" on NPD forum. I was answering an indirect question you posed. I don't think your case will ever fit any of those 3 labels nor do I see how it would change anything, labels mean nothing to me, in general in life, not just in this place.

Yup, though sometimes it's accurately applied, you're not the only one who does it. The we I usually use is people with personality disorders, it's only in my more self loathing moments I refer to myself as a narc.

Those will likely be the wrong 3 labels in any case, I'm not sure about BPD, but NPD and AsPD are not likely to be me.

The moment you try to label any group of people as all good or all bad, splitting is taking place. If you're struggling with the fact that I have some opinions you like and others you don't, or that sometimes I'm friendly and other times I'm cranky, or that I have both good thoughts and bad thoughts and can't incorporate it into an impression of a complex multi-faceted individual (as most people are) then perhaps you need to look into that.

Did I ever say something that would suggest this? I've read enough coming from you to not be able to ever put you in my "not sure what word to use here - (unworthy of my respect?) - so i'll simple write - bad guys" mental box. You being cranky or us disagreeing about curiosjane or anything else couldn't really influence that, that's not how my mind works. Perhaps if you murdered someone around here it might lol. I actually think you're projecting here when thinking our disagreement on any matter would change my overall picture of you, I find it strange that this would even occur to you, it's very far from the truth. (God, you are cranky a lot. )

I was explaining why I made the comment to xdude, regarding idealising people with BPD.

But if you want the cranky explained this ones a little complicated. *Skip this bit if you want to avoid the off-topic ramble*

Like I said before anyone who has suffered long term trauma develops a relationship with the role of the abuser. As previously pointed out my reaction to which was absolute rejection, and I've been finding new ways to "not be like them" ever since I started working for mencap at 19. But I can still feel the part of me which is like them scratching around (figuratively) inside my head, the part which wants to make the rest of the world understand that kind of pain in a very direct way. I'm extremely paranoid about it ever getting loose and compulsively controlled (in rl) to prevent that. I actively avoid contact with children for fear of contaminating them. It sort of ties into the creeping psychosis which I usually call the taint, if it isn't pushed back down hard the world gets progressively more unpleasant and feral. The stick with which I beat it is a kind of pathological altruism, a mechanism by which by making the world better with me in it, I sort of buy my right to remain. It's not like NS in that it doesn't require admiration,love or attention or whatever, it's about worth which is something I have to justify to myself but it keeps my identity stable though it can become self destructive as it gets pushed to far. I imagine the guy you knew's behaviour worked in a similar, albeit less controlled way. Unfortunately in my current state, where I am only able to work part time, I can't do those things and can't spend all my time in nature or with my friends, which are some of the other things which stabilise it.
Anyway it means firstly that people telling me how abusive or unempathetic I am tends to get on my wick more than just a little bit, it's like a hit to my identity plus being told I am like those I am trying very, very hard to be nothing like. Plus I can't help feeling that if people are going to take a shot at me for the way I am they probably need to take a look at themselves and the things they do first.

Either that or I could just be a bit of a d*ck, I usually think of myself as a sort of well meaning asshole for the sake of brevity.

None for preference, I'd quite like a do over button which involved a life with less physical pain. However since none of us can control the hand we are dealt only the way we play it, I would like an accurate diagnosis so I can learn to manage it and make the person I am a little less disparate from the person I feel I should be.

This is simply not fair. I don't know if the question was offensive in any way (was it?), from my pov the most respectable thing I could do is take a light approach and openly talk about it without having on walk to eggshells despite the fact it's extremely sensitive topic (oh look now I'm walking on eggshells), you're very well aware I'd never disrespect what you've gone through and it's unfair to use this against me and incite guilt. And now I do feel guilty yet I don't see much basis for it from what I wrote earlier. Pf.

Huh?! I think you might be reading into this one, i didn't really understand the question as I don't really want any of them. It wasn't a move to create guilt, going for the sympathy vote is not my way. I am told I am quite dour and abrupt in real life,so I suspect that sometimes I come across as more aggressive than I necessarily intend to be. If you're asking me what I think it's likely to be, OCPD and PPD to create what Millon called the puritanical compulsive or obdurate paranoid, with a BPD core underneath. On the other hand some or all parts of that could be sub clinical. NPD and AsPD are extremely unlikely I would have thought. I get to find out tomorrow afternoon, Faiqs and I are gonna be driving half the length of the country after a 9 month wait to see him, so if all he has to say for himself is "hmmm, it's complicated...." (which seems to be the psychologist's go to phrase), abrupt may very well become curt.

shanzeek wrote:about BPD - I'm not sure if it's because I share a lot of traits, but I enjoy having a BPD in my life. At the beginning of our friendship, it was pure hell, a lot of testing, backstabbing, disloyalty and drama was present, what made me stick around is the realization this person felt genuine guilt and would always attempt to fix what ever's broken and could also understand me better than any of my other friends (we have a very similar life story). Many years passed since and we've both changed and learned to adapt to each other's needs. As long as she feels she's included, lovedand supported she can be a very good friend. We did have some issues with guys at first lol, as it ocassionally felt like she was trying to steal away my boyfriends' attention which made me furious but later I realized it was more about her possessiveness towards me and my attention, not these guys' so I'd make sure she wouldn't feel left out while I was in a relationship and it pretty much solved everything. My previous NPD rl did make it harder as they were both extremely possessive and hated each other's guts but I guess (hope?) that was an exception. BPDs are lovely and fragile creatures if you try your best not to hurt them, and they are easily hurt. Never been in a relationship with one so dunno about that.

oh I'm not saying everyone with BPD is bad any more than i am saying everyone with c-ptsd is bad. I just don't think that SPS (HSP) and BPD are fundamentally linked. Highly sensitive children are more vulnerable across the board in terms of psychosocial problems, personally I would imagine due to the nature of the trait it probably tends more to anxiety than the dramatic, so if hsps do develop BPD I would expect it to tend towards a "quiet" or supressed presentation.

This is what Elaine Aron had to say on the subject
http://www.hsperson.com/pages/2May04.htm

Some misc thoughts -

First, I really enjoyed this thread. So many insightful thoughts.

Yes, definitely agree with 'I've had a bad experience with people X, Y, or Z' does not mean ALL people X, Y, or Z are bad people. Or shouldn't. Some people think in those terms, some not.

Empathy is an interesting word, and it's maybe telling that there is another word, sympathy, that reflects we humans can be aware there is a difference.

I have this thought that many with cluster B personalities are above average aware that empathy and sympathy are in limited supply in others, but suspect that is because we are also aware of on some level of our own primal nature. Sometimes, even often, we put our own interests first. That's not a bad thing or a good thing, it just is. The problem for cluster B types, I think, is that this awareness gets back to a root issue. Some BPD types express this core matter 'I just want unconditional love'. Even if they don't know exactly what that means, it expresses something they missed out on. That sense of I am valuable, just because. It goes back to that implicit self-esteem damage.

The empathy question can lead us down rat holes. I just want to know, was I cared for? It can lead us to test, question, prove it to me behavior, as well as putting our walls up instantly. It can also lead to preemptive strikes, and avoidance, why risk being hurt again? It can lead us to see the worst in others before it happens, because it might (and probably will given the right circumstances), but the truth is nobody can be 100% empathetic (or sympathetic), all the time.

In practical terms, empathy without sympathy is rarely meaningful to others. A kind word costs little, but it's almost ironic how we much mental effort we can expend avoiding it, and then expend it on being angry, or spend hours of time trying to figure out someone else' thoughts, or next move (and ours).

Even when others show us kindness, we will then go on the hunt for something sinister. This may be another difference when it comes to NONs. That ability to take life as it comes, less focus on others motives (maybe less on their own). There is a kind of intelligence in that approach to life. We are the only ones who lose out when we over analyze and miss out on being happy.

Anyway I don't know anyone that is selfless, but it's an impossible (and ridiculous) goal to live up too. Empathy is something we can practice, and improve on. Same with sympathy. Or we can avoid one, or both. I find I'm happier trying to become better at both vs avoiding.

@shazneek
This is so strange that i had a friend that did the same. and it didn't even bother me because i didn't like most of the guys . It was one of my most long lasting friendships and one of the times of my life i had the most fun.
At that time i didn't realize he was hitting to every guy but now thinking about my past i can see it.
One friend guy once told me to be careful of her . i don't think she was borderline because i revolved my life around her. And we were every day together constantly. But when i think of it backwards she was hitting in every guy and she was very very social and i just followed her enjoying her sociality. And when we weren't clingy anymore or i didn't want to revolve my life around her i just left like she was nothing. All these years constantly together and one day nothing.
I had a friend that i thought she was borderline. Not at the time but now. She had cuts/self harm and was one of the prettiest friends i had. a little bi though and attractive.I didn't really like her because i felt she was unstable for some reason and i couldn't trust her. But people thought we were best friends because of how we acted but i was fake to be honest. And that was one of the shorter friendships i ever had .it went from best friends to strangers too fast.
I think the other more lost lasting friendship i had and still talk to her has more narcissistic traits. That bothers me.She is very loving but wants you to revolve your life around her.i used to revolve my life around her too younger.as long as you do what she wants she is clingy. And gets annoyed when people like different things but she can be very giving too and codependent.but now i am thinking she can control you this way

Sorry for that ramble but it is strange,i related with what you said because now i wonder why she was hitting in everyguy.and back then i didn't realize it .when i try to think about my relationships with people. Or how i revolved my life and i thought it was normal,or wasn't it

She's also difficult to talk about because although she chose to be a monster and made sure I lived in pretty much constant terror for the first 16 years, she is still my mum and I'm not going to get another one. Ultimately I have always found denial a good strategy for dealing with her part in my history.

I never actually got that it was your mother you were talking about when saying "primary abuser"..
I understand the denial part, most of the time I picture my father in my head as a decent parent who wanted only best but whenever I try digging through my childhood I find that I've supressed a great part of it and I have a strong urge to distance myself from him today. He mostly keeps contact with my sister.

I wasn't about to talk about something as personal as that with the individuals in that thread.

Yeah, this wouldn't have been the wisest choice in that place.

I was explaining why I made the comment to xdude, regarding idealising people with BPD.

Huh?! I think you might be reading into this one, i didn't really understand the question as I don't really want any of them. It wasn't a move to create guilt, going for the sympathy vote is not my way.

Erm..I have to apologize here. I have some troubles sleeping and the first time I read it I was very cranky myself and it sounded like it had a very passive-aggresive undertone and as if pointed towards me personally. Sorry..

I imagine the guy you knew's behaviour worked in a similar, albeit less controlled way.

Yeah, your explanation both now and few pages ago made perfect sense in relation to this guy and his behaviour, that and using hard drugs 24/7 is what kept him going. Until he decided to leave it all behind.
Btw, my first impression with this guy - I genuinely thought he was a psychopath but it didn't take long before I realized I couldn't have been more wrong.

But I can still feel the part of me which is like them scratching around (figuratively) inside my head, the part which wants to make the rest of the world understand that kind of pain in a very direct way. I'm extremely paranoid about it ever getting loose and compulsively controlled (in rl) to prevent that.

This seems perfectly understandable after everything that has happened, that Cherokee Indian proverb about two wolves very much reminds me of your case and you seem to be feeding the right one.

Anyway it means firstly that people telling me how abusive or unempathetic I am tends to get on my wick more than just a little bit, it's like a hit to my identity plus being told I am like those I am trying very, very hard to be nothing like.

If you didn't share your story previously, I have to admit I'd be very confused to what's going on, you explaining things made a lot of difference in how I (and few others probably) perceive your behaviour. It easily gets misinterpreted.

well meaning asshole

..couldn't phrase it better myself.

I get to find out tomorrow afternoon, Faiqs and I are gonna be driving half the length of the country after a 9 month wait to see him, so if all he has to say for himself is "hmmm, it's complicated...." (which seems to be the psychologist's go to phrase), abrupt may very well become curt.

And? (feel not obliged to answer this if you think if you think it's too private to share)

julllia wrote:I had a friend that i thought she was borderline. Not at the time but now. She had cuts/self harm and was one of the prettiest friends i had. a little bi though and attractive..

All the borderlines I know irl are very attractive, and I often read that's the first thing people mention about their BPD exes - attractiveness - I wonder where the scientific connection between the two lies.

My friend's clingy as well, and I often have (had) the need to simply run away as it's too much for me, when we first met she was definitely love-bombing me in a platonic friendly way , but with time I learned to deal with it, and I made it clear I prefer her having other close friends so I wouldn't feel so "cornered" at times.

I didn't mind the clingy.i like it. I mind that somehow i can see they don't have stable id (intuitive maybe) and the fear that they are going to leave me or change their mind is bigger ,so i feel more intensely a threat and i keep getting triggered and triggering them.but the clingy is actually what i like ,i get reassurance and is addictive.
I don't know why they were so attractive to me.
You can say is because they try to adjust to you and become your dream person. But i don't have something stable that i like .maybe they are as vain as narcissists too.or is psychological. I don't know but they were hot. I don't know so many but the very few i found them very very attractive to what i like.too annoyingly vain maybe though. I don't know that much to actually make a conclusion lol. Is very possible that i would react more stable with a narcissist .
They have a feeling like they are a trophy wife who needs a narcissist but am not narcissistic enough for them to want it. And i am not codependent enough for a narcissist to not get bothered by his control at some point

julllia wrote:I didn't mind the clingy.i like it. I mind that somehow i can see they don't have stable id (intuitive maybe) and the fear that they are going to leave me or change their mind is bigger ,so i feel more intensely a threat and i keep getting triggered and triggering them.but the clingy is actually what i like ,i get reassurance and is addictive.
I don't know why they were so attractive to me.
You can say is because they try to adjust to you and become your dream person. But i don't have something stable that i like .maybe they are as vain as narcissists too.or is psychological. I don't know but they were hot. I don't know so many but the very few i found them very very attractive to what i like.too annoyingly vain maybe though.

I also like clingy and can be clingy myself but then I have some dark depressive phases where I need to disappear and be left alone and I very much resent anyone who tries to inferfere with it then. This sounds so emo. Or maybe it's just being ambivert (half-introvert half- extr)

I like to be alone. This is why also i think i am not borderline. I am introverted. I love it. But i hate to feel lonely. And i can feel lonely even with people. I love when people are clingy but other times i do have freaked out and said back off.
If you disappear on me i am going to devalue you. Younger I would burn bridges. But i can disappear too from others when i am depressed.i had disappeared in the past.
I am so whatever and confusing. Like i am clingy but i am the opposite of clingy too.
I need a lot of reassurance and clinginess to be attracted,but also lack of intimacy attracts me because i feel safer.. On the other hand i remember i freaked out when guys were clingy and run but i remember i devalued guys that weren't clingy enough.omg.OMG.
With friendships i am way better.

-- Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:19 pm --

I don't chase people though who push me away i don't want them. I will most probably devalue them. While a lot of borderlines feel like they chase them.

-- Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:21 pm --

But i do chase people who like me obviously they said it clearly but are not available easier

Wait i have more clear image. Borderlines when they see the threat of abandonment either they chase or devalue you/hate /revenge. They do both.and the first a lot.the first i like. Who wouldn't like a person chase them lol.
The first is very rare for me to do. I do it only with people that have done it for me before and i am very infatuated with them and with difficulty. I look like a narcissist.lol
I do the second more easy.
I do find myself chasing unavailable people . But the smallest threat turn me off to devaluation easier.