Do HPD's really love?

BreakingSad wrote:

Randomnosity wrote:GHIGGS, just letting you know you are spot on. HPDs (and several other PDs) can be very damaging to others who fall into their traps.

They can, of course.

But like has been said we aren't here to bash anyone but rather understand, learn and hopefully grow as nons and HPD sufferers alike.


Maybe I'm a sap but holding onto anger for anything your HPD put you through will only construe to hurt yourself. Let go.

Don't make assumptions about me that are just wrong. Who's my HPD?

-- Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:19 am --

And yes, you are a sap and a suck up.

-- Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:25 am --

GHIGGS wrote:We can all appreciate it for what it is and how magnificent tigers are; but we must never lose sight of the fact it can be very dangerous to us if we do not respect the realities of what they are capable of! Despite the tigers beauty and magnificence, we are all advised to stay away from them for the reality that they cause us serious harm or death. This is called RESPECT!

I agree. And this is not just applicable to HPD only. This applies to several other PDs as well. NPD, ASPD, BPD, etc.

I'm not saying this because I'm hurt by some HPD. I don't have that experience thankfully. I'm saying it because that's reality. Welcome to the harshness and unfairness of life.

Randomnosity wrote:Don't make assumptions about me that are just wrong. Who's my HPD?

-- Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:19 am --

I quoted you but was talking in a general sense. As you've pointed out, how could I know your exact circumstance?

Randomnosity wrote:And yes, you are a sap and a suck up.

-- Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:25 am --

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Sorry for being a d*ck.

I'm not good at reading between the lines, and so I took what you said literally and personally.

Either way, it is true I've been hurt ... but not by any HPD. My story is similar but still different from the stories HPD victims share.

GHIGGS wrote

For all those recovering PD's, I applaud your courage and dedication to living a more balanced and healthy life for your own sake as well as those you now sincerely care about. You are truly a rare and wonderful exception to the rule. I commend you for your recovery. More should follow your example.

Right, I agree with you, and to encourage this, one has to first start with reality, because everyone respects reality...

- All HPD's aren't the same. The Appeasing subtype by their very nature seems to be more open to concepts like empathy and love than the Disingenuous subtype. Saying that all HPD's are the same (calculating, vindicive, etc.), just obfuscates the empirically observed variety (a la Millon) among HPD's, which might be interpreted as disrespectful, and therefore alienates and creates impediments to recovery, self-awareness, or any movement of progress. In other words, every HPD affected person is an individual human being with a unique set of characteristics, whether those problems are being too appeasing, or too predatory. Either HPD or Non-HPD, we respectfully let them come to their own awareness of who they are and what their issues are.
-The assumption that all HPD's are like tigers is an example of a stereotype, and although all stereotypes have a basis in truth (some HPD's are indeed like tigresses), it obscures the others. And in terms of determinism and pre-destiny...a closely related assumption might be that all HPD's are wholly products of biology...if so then why try to communicate with them? Then we should just avoid them, or admire them from afar or behind bars, like we do tigers.
But by it's very nature Psych Forums isn't a genetics lab or a zoo, it's a place designed for people to come together to communicate, and the further assumption is that they can support each other in making at least some beneficial changes to their lives.

And: Psych Forums is for Disordered people, as well as Non-Disordered People

So for the HPD-affected person, this might mean being encouraged to relate how they view love, or to be encouraged to enter into CBT with a professional (which we always encourage - formal therapy isn't allowed on the forum for obvious reasons related to risk).
And for the Non-HPD person who has been involved in a love affair gone wrong with someone who appears to be HPD, the encouragement often takes the form of reccomendations to end the relationship and it's associated addiction (we call it no contact).

In between there is a lot of information and education, and occaisionally even agreement and a little camaraderie...sometimes, when things come together, the HPD's and Nons teach each other a little something or two - I know I have learned from the HPD people here.

GHIGGS, you express some very strong opinions, which of course you are entitled to hold, bearing in mind that the Board requests respect to other members at all times, and I am sure that you are a respectful person who can appreciate the reasons for this.

I wonder if you would like to start another thread in which you specifically talk about your own personal experiences with HPD, either from a personal or professional perspective, since you said that you are a medical professional. Your opinions have obviously originated from somewhere specific, and we'd be interested to hear more.

One thing puzzles me. On the one hand you say

I also called attention to the fact the posts seemed to minimize the liabilities one faces when they become involved with an HPDI. Everyone is free to express their opinions and experiences and perceptions from both points of view. However, I'm not trying to sugarcoat the realities of what one faces with HPDI's. As a medical professional myself, I cannot afford to. The reality is what must be confronted.

I wonder what your experiences were specifically, whilst meeting those with HPD in a professional capacity, and whether these experiences have affected your opinions of those with the disorder.

This seems to be at odds with what you say here

The partner forgets the reality of who and what they are dealing with. This is denial! Malignant Optimism!

We all know what will happen again after the HPDI has reacquired their former partner again...the exact same thing if not worse of what took place previously.

UNLESS THE HPDI HAS HAD PRODUCTIVE TREATMENT FROM A MENTAL HEALTH/MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL!

I'm not trying to bash anybody. I am just restating that HPD is a serious mental illness and one must always remember that. I feel that is a very important contribution to all.

For all those recovering PD's, I applaud your courage and dedication to living a more balanced and healthy life for your own sake as well as those you now sincerely care about. You are truly a rare and wonderful exception to the rule. I commend you for your recovery. More should follow your example.

You seem to be saying here that with effective treatment, there can be hope for a person with HPD. Surely, in order for treatment to be effective and reach its full potential, a person with HPD would need to be treated by a non judgemental professional, who perhaps does not see the stereotype, but respects the fact that the patient is an individual, and treats the patient with kindness, firmness, with no presupposed judgements, which might be counterproductive in the treatment of the person. After all, we need to bear in mind that preconceieved ideas and prejudice might create something of a self fulfilling prophecy? Those who have been SUCCESSFULLY treated, have often been treated by professionals who borrowed from Carl Rogers, using the Three Core Conditions.
http://garethmartin.hubpages.com/hub/Th ... ounselling
The Three Core Conditions are
Unconditional Positive Regard
Congruence
Empathy
and the therapist uses these with the client as a platfrom for the therapy. This method, which can be used in combination with other therapies such as a psychodynamic approach, CBT or DBT has been proven to be successful in providing a basis for therapeutic changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-centered_therapy

Carl Rogers advocated that the INDIVIDUALITY of the client should always be respected, having no preconceptions or assumptions about them. When a person has preconceptions and assumptions about a person, they can have no empathy towards them because their opinions are based more upon the assumptions and less about the person as an individual. Therefore making assumptions based upon labels and stereo types can be dangerous. Empathy can be a two way process, and
in order for it to be effective, a person needs to respect the individuality of a person, and think less about the label.

I sense a great deal of hurt lurking under the surface, that has affected your assumptions about a large group of people, and in order not to derail this thread and go off topic, I encourage you to talk and elaborate in another thread. We will, of course, respect you, hear you, and empathise with you - as long as you also keep a respectful tone, which I am sure you will.

masquerade wrote:

Carl Rogers advocated that the INDIVIDUALITY of the client should always be respected, having no preconceptions or assumptions about them. When a person has preconceptions and assumptions about a person, they can have no empathy towards them because their opinions are based more upon the assumptions and less about the person as an individual. Therefore making assumptions based upon labels and stereo types[/b] can be dangerous. Empathy can be a two way process, and in order for it to be effective, a person needs to respect the individuality of a person, and think less about the label.

Has Carl Rogers said anything about the client being a patient... ?
(I'm not just the President, I'm also a client.)
A patient... an individual who has been diagnosed (labeled)... an individual who meets diagnostic criteria... in this particular case... for debilitating mental disorder... ?
Has Carl Rogers said anything about COMMONALITY along with INDIVIDUALITY ?

The World Health Organization's ICD-10 lists histrionic personality disorder as personality disorder characterized by:
shallow and labile affectivity,
self-dramatization,
theatricality,
exaggerated expression of emotions,
suggestibility,
egocentricity,
self-indulgence,
lack of consideration for others,
easily hurt feelings, and
continuous seeking for appreciation, excitement and attention.

here they are..., masquerade, ASSUMPTIONS... about a large group of people...
COMMONALITY... diagnosis...

One of Carl Rogers's propositions is:
" Most of the ways of behaving that are adopted by the organism are those that are consistent with the concept of self. "

and in order not to derail this thread and go off topic...
Do we have any-f---ing-body here... a NON or HPD... who can say...
"1) My mother (father/bf/gf/spouse/child) is a person with HPD (or another Cluster B). 2) What he/she gives me is love. 3) What I feel is loved by him/her. "
Anybody ? One person ?

People with HPD may love but you cant trust them. They will always send out signals to others they are available. This is key to their sense of self esteem. They can never get behind anyone person so destroy their own relationships because they must and its easy to do.

Hello All and Welcome Ghiggs...

I have been off the boards a while but have tried to catch up on some posts and this one is one that I really have to comment on because I think Ghiggs is "right on" on a number of things being pointed out, but not so much on others.

Loving another person I agree is difficult for HPDs because love involves trust and we do not trust another to not hurt us as our parents did. Yes, I realize you pointed out Ghiggs that WE, HPDIs are the UNTRUSTWORTHY ones, but you have to understand we did not receive the adequate TRUST role models growing up. If you will go back to the first couple of pages where I posted HOW we love, you will see that I said we love CONDITIONALLY. But I feel everyone does on some level. A NORMAL person doesn't come to fall in love with another NORMAL person without getting something in return. Everyone gets those "warm fuzzies" in the beginning don't they? It isn't just HPD or PD marriages that fall apart after 20 years of marriage is it??

Don't most people after so many years of marriage that get a divorce say...it just wasn't what it was in the beginning? He/She stopped showing me they loved me? They stopped doing X or Y and so we fell out of love?? This Is the biggest reason that people turn to affairs is because the person they are having the affair with fills the void of what their spouse no longer gives them. Not just in HPD or PDs. So remember that. A Normal person loves conditionally too or otherwise they would love that spouse no matter if they are giving them what they need and never turn to an affair to fill the void. No one can really argue with this point because ALL of us know of SOMEONE in our lives that seemed like they had the perfect lives and then it all comes out once a divorce occurs that they just grew apart. Loving someone UNCONDITIONALLY means that no matter what they do or give us or don't give us, we love them and stick by them forever, correct??

NOW that being said... Ghiggs you hit the nail on the head about a lot. HPDs often DO think childlike, selfishly, conditionally, passive aggressive, etc. I will fully agree I have done some of these although I'm not the extreme full blown HPD, but I understand the nature of whats and whys of the HPDs behavior. it doesn't mean we CAN'T love though. What you are saying is that we are incapable of loving. You say we imitate love. And while some of the statement may be true, it is not entirely true.

When it comes to my children, there is no greater love that that of a mother. I was pregnant with my first very young, but she changed me. I might have been well on my way to Hollywood had I not become pregnant. My goal... surprisingly not for an HPD...was to become and actress and a singer. I married my husband when I was pregnant because I knew she needed a stable family. One that I never had. She became my priority and my focus to be better. My husband even said he saw my potential that I was different and wanted to be better even with the hurt I already put him through when we dated. So he still wanted to marry me in spite of that. I have loved all my babies (3 girls) since they were in my belly, and nothing would or could ever change that. I have taught them to be good, and sweet, and loving, and they are not disordered in any way. I love seeing what they have become. There is no fairytale imaginary anything when it comes to me and my girls. I have never used them or abused them to gain anything of satisfaction for my own self.

I have always made sure they have what they need, emotionally, physically, etc. They are beautiful inside and out. They do not show any of the signs that I did when I was a teen. My husband and I, together, have done this.

And one thing that hit me hard you said that I believe to be untrue is that love connection when someone you love dies across the world, not everyone will get that. You don't just instantly know that they are dead, some may, but not everyone does. I have known many people that loved someone dearly, and they did not know their loved one died until the phone call came. Having that "sixth sense" or whatever it is, is not just lacking in HPDs.

You say we lack empathy, but that is not true for all of us. And perhaps I'm just not full blown HPD, but I will tell you I am extremely empathetic. I am actually attending a funeral this afternoon of a girl that was killed over the holiday in a wreck. I wasn't close with the girl, but her parents I know well and my heart has been hurting for the mother, more than anyone else. The love of a mother for her child is something that cannot be explained. Not that fathers can't love in the same way, but for a mother to carry her child for months, loving her, nourishing her, and caring for her, and protecting her, then to go through labor to get her here, there is no bond stronger than that of a mother. It's on my mind, it hurts me, it bothers me, it makes me grateful my girls are healthy and alive, and makes me thank God extra for the blessings he has bestowed on me and others.

So before you put a blanket statement, that HPDs ARE THIS or AREN'T THAT, or that we CAN'T LOVE, etc.... remember you have a biased view because you as in your words....have lived some of it... you are going by text books, internet, etc. You can't get inside the mind of an HPD. We are victims too. We don't mean to hurt you; we just do what it takes to protect ourselves.

Can we control hurting others???... YES, I fully agree it is a choice. HPDs I'm not defending our hurtful actions, but I think you will agree with me that Ghiggs is wrong on the part that we can't love at all except by imitation.

Sorry for the length, but thought I needed to share.

Scarlett

Scarlett1939 wrote:...If you will go back to the first couple of pages where I posted HOW we love, you will see that I said we love CONDITIONALLY. But I feel everyone does on some level. A NORMAL person doesn't come to fall in love with another NORMAL person without getting something in return. Everyone gets those "warm fuzzies" in the beginning don't they? It isn't just HPD or PD marriages that fall apart after 20 years of marriage is it?? ...

Wanted to add to this -

'Unconditional love' has become a popular phrase, and sometimes presented as truth in our religions though you don't have to read long before you go, but oh, wait! There are always conditions listed. If there wasn't there'd be no need for a book. A one liner would cover it - "You are all loved unconditionally. The End."

Unconditional love appeals to black/white thinking, but it's simply not true. We do all put conditions on our love, even parents who spend much of their life socially training their children, because the reality is neither parents nor others in society could live with someone who just did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted.

It's really more about having realistic and reasonable conditions than it is about having no conditions. Where PD relationships are likely to fail is that, as you wrote, because the person with the PD has often experienced a twisted version of love at best growing up, or perceived it that way, their expectations about what to expect from others and themselves ends up damaged too.

I suppose the short version is that because people with some PDs are deep down expecting to be hurt again, they may use preemptive strikes to prevent being hurt again. Preemptive strikes can come in various forms, from having backup lovers to fall back on, to suicidal attempts, to blowing up (pushing), to cruel games to test, and more. What is not necessarily obvious is that these preemptive strikes are win-win on some level. If the other person stays, it's real proof of 'unconditional' love (no matter how badly I behave, they still love me). If they leave, it is proof of what the person with the PD deep down knew already, at least though it happened under their control, something to cling too.

What is missing though from their lives is something that some parents can give their children. That sense of, "I still love you, but it's not okay to do x, y, or z" And you know, as children it's entirely reasonable that our parents have realistic expectations too. To realize that we're just children. We are not adults. We're not emotionally or intellectually prepared to handle adult problems. That our parents should love us, it's natural, normal, and not expect perfection from us. To teach us, because as kids the reality is we are going to screw up, but to still love us. That's an 'unconditional' love that is realistic and attainable, and that can be passed on to our own children and hopefully other trusted adults in our lives.

Hi All,
I have just joined this forum so maybe this is an "old" topic but I really just want to affirm what has been said. I am 48 years old and live in East London, South Africa. I am the daughter of a predominantly Histrionic but also Narcissistic PDI who has increasingly manifested somatoform disorder as time goes by. My mom is now 71 and my parents have been married 51 years. My dad has stuck with her through infidelity, and all the other extreme behaviours that these HPD's typically display. 4 years ago I was going through a divorce after 20 years of marriage to an alcoholic. My parents came to visit for Christmas as usual. A small incident was blown up into a major histrionic event as usual, and my mother put herself on a bus back to their hometown 1000 kms away. I haven't seen her since although we talk on the phone, mostly quite amicably providing I steer the conversation away from any discussion about her health. It was only at that time that I discovered the info about PD's on the internet and realised that she had a disorder and was not just plain evil. I googled attention addiction and sat gobsmacked at what I read. Knowing that she is disordered has helped me cope with the disconnect and all the guilt associated with that. I am a committed Christian as are both my parents so walking away from another human being goes against everything I stand for. I wish I could reassure others trying to live with an NPD but in our case it has just got worse over time and both my brother and I can no longer be physically around her. He moved to Ireland about 10 years ago and hasn't been back. My parents have visited there twice but it is such an ordeal that my brother is not prepared to have her there again. He hasn't told her this for fear of the repercussions on my dad. Before she left 4 years ago I laid down some boundaries:
1. I could not be in relationship with her unless she went for a psych analysis, but of course we are all needing help not her. She still hasn't gone but goes to the doctor repeatedly for physical complaints which never have any medical foundation.
2. I would never have her disrespect my father in front of me or my children again.

The tragic outcome of all this has been that we have effectively lost our father as well. He is a wonderful, loving, principled man. All these years we have all swallowed her behaviour out of fear for the repurcussions on each other. We have all walked on eggshells around her. I am increasingly concerned for my father and believe he should see a psychiatrist so that he can get some support and know what he is in for. I don't believe she is capable of love the way non's think of it. Love does not constantly and manipulatedly harm their significant others to a greater and greater extent. Her behaviour has got more public over time and the extended family have finally realised that there is a serious problem. She can be very vivacious but is increasingly "on a stage". The attention seeking has got so extreme it's hard to believe she is being serious and not "having us on" eg. groaning while sitting in front of the TV, hobbling around etc. I must say at this point that she has always been an extremely fit and healthy person. She does belly dancing (I kid you not) , instructs at a ladies gym and ran the Comrades marathon(90kms) four times in her 40's.

I don't know if this helps except that it is OK to let go and walk away. My heart breaks for my dad and we have assured him that we will support him completely if he ever feels he can't take it any more. I just wish that we had been aware of the true problem years ago when setting boundaries and coping strategies could have made a difference. I have had years of trying to deal with the harm caused in my life especially the bad choices I have made in relationships. I would encourage all non's to admit the problem head on and find out all you can about it. If anyone has a betr experience of the problem improving after such a long period of time I would love to hear about it.