Do HPD's really love?

I feel like I am much more capable of love than normal people.
Seriously.
Serious.

Scarlett1939 wrote:Hello All and Welcome Ghiggs...

I have been off the boards a while but have tried to catch up on some posts and this one is one that I really have to comment on because I think Ghiggs is "right on" on a number of things being pointed out, but not so much on others. ...


Scarlett

Hello Scarlett,

Thank you for your contribution and response. I appreciate your interest and contribution. I would like to ask if you have first been diagnosed as an HPDI. Also, The pantheon of Cluster-B is a bit complicated in that they often overlap one another. If you think you have some maladaptive disorder, there may be another diagnosis presenting. Diagnosticians often misdiagnose the Cluster-B. So it's important to try and be as accurate as possible with diagnosis. The fact you say you have a deep abiding love of your children suggests to me you are NOT an HPDI.

As a medical professional myself and having had exceptional interpersonal experience with Cluster-B's; I feel I have the benefit of experience and education to respond to your posts.

Firstly, let me say up front, I am not attacking you or trying to tear you down. I am as objective as possible when I write. However, I am also honest in my summations and viewpoints. Please keep this in mind. I have no motive to cause emotional injury to you or anyone else.

You say love is "Conditional." I disagree. When a person allows themselves to risk and express this deep human emotion, they are sharing their emotional core with another. This is from one person to the other. That doesn't necessarily mean the other person will respond in kind. This is why when one bonds emotionally with an HPDI or Cluster-B, there is a lot of emotional pain involved on part of the loving partner. The Cluster-B is NOT capable of true love as we know it (In my opinion). This is why they are able to disengage with others almost spontaneously when they see another person for whom they surmise will give them more or fresh attention/narcissistic supply. True love is an intimate connection between humans! It is not easily turned off! True love has it's own energy and inertia. Love is ALIVE!

Cluster-B's are disconnected from themselves on a personal level of SELF. Hence, they cannot form a true healthy connection with others. It's similar to the rare condition called Congenital Analgesia or Pain Indifference. The person cannot feel physical pain; so they cannot appreciate when others feel pain because they have no point of self-reference (i.e. empathy) With regard to the Cluster-B personality Disorders, we are focusing on the human emotional spectrum.

Humans RELATE to one another. We are social creatures. If we share ourselves with others, we have a natural expectation that those others will do the same with us. This is relating to another. If the other refuses or is incapable of relating to us; the relationship will degenerate to failure because the loving partner is not getting their own emotional needs met. This is not a true relationship so much as it is an "Interaction".

When you meet strangers, you are not emotionally connected with them in a deep way. You interact with them. This is what a Cluster-B does. They interact with you like you would a stranger only they have the benefit of additional familiarity and so they present the appearance of a truly engaged person when in fact, they are not engaged with you at all on any deep interpersonal level. Their connection with you is superficial at best.

As the non-disordered individual continually expends more of themselves and personal energy into gravitating closer towards and connecting with the Cluster-B; the Cluster-B does not do the same. They are stationary and immobile. They do not try to get closer to you. The non-disordered person is relating with the HPDI. However, the HPDI is only "Interacting" with the NON. This begins the "One-Way" dynamic of the relationship with a Cluster-B.

The problem is a Cluster-B will "Perform" and "Act" the appropriate love behaviors with a non-disordered individual and deceive that individual into believing they truly and genuinely love them back. It's a deception. The non-disordered individual will "sense" something is wrong or "Amiss" because their subconscious is not feeling a true connection to the Cluster-B because the Cluster-B is not connected to them! They are simply not there! The Cluster-B individual is indeed "Missing" from the relationship. Their body is present, but there is no true persona animating it behind the physical aspect. You are "Interacting" with a "Construct" facsimile of a person; the true individual is not present.

However, it is important to remember, the Cluster-B is suffering themselves! They know intuitively deep down, something is missing inside them. They know they are altered! Much of their behaviors are desperate attempts to find some sort of normalcy and relief from their internal emptiness and disquiet. They want to feel what a non-disordered person feels (Except maybe an Anti-Social Personality Disorder- AsPD) Cluster-B's try to act normal with a belief that if they behave normally, they will become normal as others. This is another reason why HPDI's seek out constant newness from others. By affiliating with other personalities they find appealing through some inner quality that other individual possesses; the HPDI will engage that individual seeking to co-opt those same qualities for themselves! Sort of like a "Personal development by Proxy" or "Personal growth by Association"

A good visual reference is a scene in the movie "Ordinary People". The mother is cold and distant to a surviving son from a terrible boating accident where she lost another son she had particular affinity for. The mother resented the surviving son and the surviving son sensed this on an intuitive level within himself. There was a scene when the mother and son were asked by the father to join and/embrace in a photo. The mother gave polite refusals and balked repeatedly to this. It was a very painful and difficult scene to observe. This is similar to the Cluster-B.

True intimacy is terrifying to the Cluster-B because they will be found out they are flawed and something is inhumanly wrong with them. So they will do everything they can to prevent true intimacy from occurring in interpersonal relationships. When the non-disordered individual increases their natural gravitation towards the central orbit of the Cluster-B, the Cluster-B will exhibit anxiety and engage in avoidance behaviors to sabotage or deflect the non-disordered partner. This in turn increases frustration and anxiety in the non-disordered partner and thus begins the conflict dynamics of the Cluster-B dysfunctional relationship.

HPDI's have difficulty relating to others because they have a difficulty understanding others. But most importantly; the Cluster-B doesn't want others to truly see and understand them because they fear they will be found out that they are not genuine or sincere in their participation in the relationship.

The Cluster-B is a taker, not a contributor in the relationship! Cluster-B's do not enter relationships for the reasons a non-disordered person enters a relationship.

It's difficult for Cluster-B's to understand others because they have deficits understanding themselves. This is not to say Cluster-B's cannot have relationships with others; it's to say they have profound difficulty doing so, hence the roiling turmoil in the relationship.

There is growing consensus Cluster-B's have genetic predispositional components in their origins and that the human brain develops strong connectivity between the decision-making portions of the brain with the emotional portions of the brain. Which would explain the impulsivity and difficulty in cognitive reasoning and reflection with the HPDI. Non-Disordered persons have been shown to have stronger connectivity between the decision-making portions of the brain with the rational centers of the brain; and so are more cognitively functioning and aware in their thought processes and how they manage interpersonal relationships.

Also, with growing research on neuroplasticity and redefintions of Cluster-B (DSM-V 2013); Cluster-B is being reinterpreted and so alternative treatment protocols should result. That said, HPDI is a defensive maladaption from a narcissistic injury most likely experienced in childhood. As humans, we are products of our experiences. Our experiences define us and change us as we journey through life.

Depending on the severity of the injury and your own emotional resilience and interpersonal resources; you may have developed healthier ways to manage your maladaption and formulated better coping skills and ways to interpersonally relate to others. No doubt your experience with becoming a parent has contributed to this ability.

Parenthood, forces the mother to see to the needs of her offspring. This is conditioning in itself. You are also imbued with bonding chemical compounds to help facilitate this (I.e. Oxytocin...). That being said, I would disagree you are a true HPDI. You express true empathy for a personal friend who has lost someone to death. "Your heart has been hurting for her..." tells me you are not a Cluster-B.

I say this because HPD is a variation of narcissism. A narcissist cannot relate to others on a truly healthy emotive level. They lack this capacity because they lack empathy. A constant denominator with all Cluster-B Maladaptions is the deficit of empathy or extreme empathic suppression. These individuals have grown up observing human emotive behavior and have learned to imitate them so they can integrate themselves within society. You say you feel genuine, appropriate emotions of sorrow, empathy and grief for another at a funeral. A true HPDI would not be able to do this because they are too egocentric to do so.

A True HPDI would be more focused on what she was going to wear to the funeral and her own appearance rather than the reason for the social occasion. A TRUE HPDI would be looking to see who else will attend the funeral and how she could attract attention from that person. And finally, a TRUE HPDI would find a reason to make the occasion all about her. So I would say you are NOT an HPDI.

As for people's capacity to love one another; this is not to say relationships are everlasting and those that fail are due to no love or personality disorders. We all know there are many different reasons why relationships fail.

As for persons who have experienced a deep personal empathic connection with another individual and known intuitively that other person had come to harm or death; not every person has experienced this through like circumstances. One could assume that persons capacity for empathy was not sufficient to experience this. I can personally say this phenomenon exists through personal experience. However, if you have never experienced this phenomenon; it doesn't mean there is something "wrong" with you.

There is also the reality that you have matured and found a way to transcend your maladaption and limitations. Humans are capable of tremendous growth and transcend their limitations in many ways. Even persons with Cluster-B disorders have been known to transcend their limitations and have reached a level of normality and function. Cluster-B isn't necessarily a "Terminal" diagnosis. It's just that they are usually highly resistant to change or the perception they are flawed and need treatment. By virtue of these dynamics, Cluster-B's more often than not doom themselves to the permanence of their disorder.

If you are convinced you are a Cluster-B, then you have certainly made great progress in your own personal development. You also mentioned how your husband was committed to you and wanted to marry you despite your impairment. This is true love, Scarlett. Loving a Cluster-B is loving a person with a handicap. They cannot separate the two. It's a package deal.

If I fell in love with a woman who was deaf; I couldn't very well take the woman with all her qualities and leave her deafness out of it. I would have to find a way to relate to her despite her disability. I would have to learn sign language and other ways than vocal speech to express myself to her and how to interpret her expressions as well. I would have to be CONNECTED to her. This is called intimacy.

You mention your interaction with your own children as an indication of your own growth and ability to be an emotive individual. This is good, however, I would look to see how you interact and engage with your husband and others as a baseline to see if you are indeed an HPDI.

That being said; it seems you and your husband have found a way to relate to one another on a mature and intimate level. This is a loving and cohesive relationship. I suggest you rent the film/read the book "Children of a Lesser God" to see how 2 people transcend the limitations of a disability and found a strong and lasting intimate love relationship between the two.

Again, I doubt you are a Cluster-B. Perhaps you have some difficulties with personal feelings or expressions of your own thoughts or some difficulty relating to others. That's okay! This might be termed a neurosis. It's not necessarily a diagnosis.

You have an ability to commit to a genuine mature love relationship. This is a hallmark of a healthy emotional capacity for interpersonal relationships. Cluster- B's are generally not capable of this. It is the major reason why many professionals try to help the non-disordered individual to come to the point of deciding to relinquish their involvement and save their own emotional selves before they are engulfed into the roiling whirlpool of the Cluster-B maelstrom. It is incredibly difficult treating the Cluster-B. They are too rigid and static in their psycho-dynamics to effect positive change.

Likewise, it is also very taxing on the non-disordered individual to remain in the relationship with the Cluster-B. Cluster-B's are not concerned with the needs of others. Their egocentricity limits their ability to interpret and genuinely desire to fulfill the needs of others. It's too threatening for them to deeply and unreservedly emotionally invest in interpersonal relationships. You don't fit this paradigm. So Again, I would doubt your being an HPDI.

However, if you are convinced you are an HPDI, I would suggest you seek therapy and explore how you have developed such beneficial capabilities and work to expand your personal development! You are on the road to a happier and healthier future! The best of life is ahead of you and I want to personally and sincerely wish you every success in your accomplishments and further growth!

With much love and warmth, I wish you and your family much happiness!

Just to find out what Histrionics experience; I would like for persons diagnosed as True Cluster-B Histrionic Personality Disordered Individuals (HPDI's) to describe your emotions and thoughts with respect to "True Love". I've heard many say, "They (HPDI's) love differently...!" or "We (HPDI's) love in a Special Way...!"

I'm very curious to learn how HPDI's experience emotions. And please expound on other emotions as well (Jealousy, Anger, Fear, Power...)

Take us into your universe so we can learn more about how you experience emotions and life itself.

GHIGGS

GHIGGS -

You've written a very well thought out and well spoken post. Clearly you're familiar with cluster B disorders.

I guess the tight-rope we walk, sort of the white elephant in the room, is the matter of how to help those with cluster B disorders make progress. On the one hand there is knowledge about the disorder. On the other is that the knowledge alone is not enough to help someone move forward.

On the positive side most of those with HPD on this forum have already taken the hardest step of at least considering the possibility there is something wrong, help is needed. For everyone else the hard part, from my personal experience, is that it doesn't work to be too hard on people with cluster B disorders, but nor does it work to simply be supportive at any cost. The later fails because if someone is simply supportive, there is no motivation to change. The former fails because if someone is not supportive enough, the person with a cluster B disorder already has a lifetime of self-protection mechanisms to fall back on and protect themselves from further damage to their already damaged self-esteem.

I am coming to believe though that it is near impossible for someone in a relationship with someone with a cluster B disorder to provide a healthy balance of support/boundaries. That when in a relationship one is too close to the problem, and it's unhealthy to have to live with ones defenses always up. Fortunately this forum is not the kind of environment. We're all mostly anonymous, and can remain somewhat supportive, but also reasonably emotionally uninvolved. That's also why the patient/therapist relationship stands some chance of succeeding, because the therapist can maintain a strong degree of emotional detachment while the person with the cluster B disorder works through their issues. That makes it harder on the person with the cluster B disorder to make progress, but it is necessary because someone with a cluster B disorder can so easily (not necessarily intentionally) drown others in their issues. Not dissimilar to what they tell life guards, you just can't save drowning people by jumping in with them and being pulled under too.

To add to all of that, as you touched on, yes, it is very true that even people who'd never be labeled as cluster B personality types often end up in relationships that over the long term end up in failure or emotionally dead. I think for many cluster B types, the thought of being in an emotionally dead relationship seems worse than one that is at least just over. Unfortunately the role models for successful loving relationships seem to be few, or more likely, they just don't make the news or aren't dramatized the way the failing relationships are.

Thank you, all, for your posts. Having just terminated a 14-month relationship with a wonderful HPD, I need to know that he loved me. While we ended it mutually on Saturday, and he was emotionally able to go on a second date with someone else on Sunday, I anticipate it will take me a bit longer to heal. I think I will have an easier time healing, and remembering my love for him, if I can believe that he loved me as much as he said he did while it lasted.

GHIGGS wrote:Just to find out what Histrionics experience; I would like for persons diagnosed as True Cluster-B Histrionic Personality Disordered Individuals (HPDI's) to describe your emotions and thoughts with respect to "True Love". I've heard many say, "They (HPDI's) love differently...!" or "We (HPDI's) love in a Special Way...!"

I'm very curious to learn how HPDI's experience emotions. And please expound on other emotions as well (Jealousy, Anger, Fear, Power...)

Take us into your universe so we can learn more about how you experience emotions and life itself.

GHIGGS

I love in average way, it just lacks empathy.
For example let's say I am hegehog and I love you I want to hug you, but you bleed bc of the stings,
but i don't give a s*it but keep hugs you bc I love you.
I think that is love.
i love my bf, his heart bleeds bc of my behaviors that violate loyalty,
but i f*ckin love him. i do my BEST, the best i can, for him, isn't that enough?
even though you can't see someone's mind or personality,
our personality is obviously disfigured as if we have a disfigured body part.
requring pds to love you in the exact same as normals do is like
requiring legless people to run fast for you or someone blind to see you
:we just can't, we are disordered, our mind is broken and disfigured,

there are peopl who'd marry a blind person out of love etc,
so i guess there would be ppl who'd marry PDs out of love, just the same way.
I mean, I love the best I can. I am loyal the best I can be. I really don't understand all the blames:you are wrong, you should be blamed, you are mean
bc in my mind, I really love my bf. really truly, really truly, no matter how I treat him.

Thanks, yYyYy. I don't see him as malicious or mean-spirited. So if all the verbal abuse that was hurled at me during the weekly down moments of the cycles were the results of his inability to control his anger (probably because I could never quite convince him that I wouldn't leave him, which I ended doing) and not an attempt to manipulate my emotions, I'd feel better.

Do you know what he might be thinking, or even better, what he might be "feeling" when he spends hours poring through the thousands of pictures he took of me (usually clothed, sometimes sleeping nude, oy), I assume during those moments when he's not on his internet online dating sites, scheduling to hook up with other women?

-- Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:31 pm --

I also don't understand how he could be out on 6 to 8 online dating dates in December, and still manage to impulsively buy an engagement ring and propose marriage. I don't understand the psyche. Do I fulfill one need, and everyone else fulfills those needs that I can't fulfill? Aren't I going to outgrow my usefulness someday as well?

lookingtoheal wrote:... I don't understand the psyche. Do I fulfill one need, and everyone else fulfills those needs that I can't fulfill? Aren't I going to outgrow my usefulness someday as well?

You actually do understand.

People with HPD have had their spirits broken and want a special set of rules to apply to them. Whether it's because they had harder childhoods then others, or more easily gave up (the nature aspect), nobody can know.

I grew up with a BPD mother. It has affected me but I fight it. Disordered is like falling off a cliff, though it can happen slowly. Once someone goes over the edge though, it's a long fall, and a painful long haul back up.

our personality is obviously disfigured as if we have a disfigured body part.
requring pds to love you in the exact same as normals do is like
requiring legless people to run fast for you or someone blind to see you
:we just can't, we are disordered, our mind is broken and disfigured,

Truth, the only problem is that many HPD's aren't nearly so honest in the midst of a relationship as yyyyy is above, because, unfortunately most of the world doesn't want to take on such a burden...more truth. So HPDs beguile, mirror, and flat out lie, manipulating to conceal their "broken and disfigured minds." And many also realize they can't run that race in a regular relationship, and so beating the brake up to the punch they move on - or they simply just get bored and move on. For many, it seems that their many relationships are short 3-6 month exercises, seductions and infatuations only.

If both parties know what they're getting into- then it's "you got what you asked for," or alternately, I guess no problem. But it doesn't sound too healthy - for anyone involved.

orion -

I have to agree, it's not so simple as love in-spite of the disorder. I know I've read posts here from some who have tried, and still eventually couldn't cope with it. I'm also not sure it's quite the same as loving someone who is say missing a leg, or blind, etc. If you have those kind of disabilities there is really nothing much can do about it but live with it. Those kind of disabilities have an effect on others too, but as long as everyone is rational, adult minded, both people can work together and around the disability.

When it comes to personality disorders though it's much harder to live with because often the two people involved are not working on it together. First, because in most cases a disordered person doesn't even know they are disordered. Second, because sometimes the disorder has psychological aspects that means rather then cooperation, the person with the disorder (consciously or unconsciously) doesn't want the relationship to go smoothly. Push-pull dynamics, covert aggressive behavior, creating drama and stress where none is needed, etc.

Finally I think most of us want to believe that personality disorders can be 'cured' while it's understood that say someone who is blind cannot be. Still, imagine if someone was blind, and there was a cure, and they refused to accept they are blind, refused treatment, but expected others to assist them frequently. Well most of us would go hmm to that. It's one thing to help someone who needs help. It's another thing to help someone who wants help but wouldn't need it if they chose to get better.