Do HPD's really love?

X I think I told you about this interesting book I read: "Character Disturbance: the phenomenon of our age" [George K. Simon Ph.D.] The author makes the case that classical Freudian psychology is often wrong when it comes to personality disorders. That is, it is often a mistake to believe, as classical psychologists do, that most people with PDs have some internal conflict. Specifically, the internal conflicts that result in neurotic activity are often absent in PD's, especially those PDs characterized by narcissism. We often hear of the narcissistic personality that has such low self esteem and internal conflict that they compensate with huge ego and self-centeredness. But Simon says it's more often the case that (especially with narcissists and antisocials) many PD people are pretty much what they seem: their shallow surface features are pretty much all their features. So instead of a compensatory narcissist, compensating for poor self esteem due to childhood abuse, besides whatever biological features the more common straight narcissist was overindulged and pampered, raised like a miniature king or queen, led to believe that all things... are naturally theirs.
Simon goes on to say that many people with an abundance of such narcissistic traits don't change because they don't want to - they enjoy the lifestyle, i.e., all the deception and manipulations. Perhaps as you seem to be saying... (?)

It's another thing to help someone who wants help but wouldn't need it if they chose to get better.

An exception to this idea would be those who are diametric opposites from the narcissistic: the dissociative. Namely that the chaos, intolerable stress, and self-destruction literally pushes them into therapy. Climb up and over the cliff, or fall off it. BPDs seem like they live more hellish lives, maybe why they are pushed into successful therapy to a greater rate.

Since HPD seems to be a kind of Cluster B crossroads, with dimensions of both dissociation and narcissism, (1) the desire to recover from the dissociation often seems to alternate with (2), a pernicious narcissistic delight in sabotaging getting better.

Two split extremes connected continuously by being the center of attention.

orion -

That is very insightful. He wouldn't be the first author either to suggest that for some people the issues don't revolve around a shattered childhood ego, but an entitlement minded ego that is constantly challenged by the real world once the child leaves the nest. Of course there is no motivation for such a person to change, not when every change has them coming down off the pedestal they really believe they are entitled to.

This is an interesting question I wrestled with regarding my previous relationship with someone who told me he was HPD (all the symptoms fit). I am really thankful he told me that, because it's provided the path I've needed to make sense of that relationship and move on.

I'm not making a statement for all HPDs, but my conclusion regarding him was that he did not truly love me, no matter how much he claimed to. The "shock" that made me realize that was when he decided he needed to end the relationship, despite still "loving" me, due to an irreconcilable difference between us. Not even two weeks later he was dating someone else, with pictures of him and her, boastful statuses about his relationship, and snarky statuses clearly aimed at me about not being upset about former relationships and why was he ever in love, all over Facebook. It was extremely traumatic, but not very long before that, a friend had asked me if he truly loved me and I was not able to honestly answer yes. He was extremely self-centred throughout the whole relationship, with little ability to empathize with me or focus on me and meet my needs. He and his latest drama were always centre stage, all the time, and as a codependent, I kept on giving to him, loving him, and trying to meet his needs, hoping he'd in turn come around and meet mine.

The best conclusion I have been able to come to, based on my experience with him and my research, is that when he used the word "love", he meant something very different from what I consider true love. He meant infatuation, obsession, attraction, and desire. He was "in love" with me in a romantic sense. However, his "love" was like a child's love, which is better expressed as "need". He needed someone to meet his needs, and he wanted me to meet those needs. It really was like being in a relationship with a child. He wanted someone to love him as a mother loves, perfectly and endlessly, giving to him and nurturing him constantly, while expecting nothing back from him. He did not perceive me as a person separate from himself, similarly as an infant does not perceive the mother as separate from himself. He did not see me as an equal adult, with feelings, needs, goals, thoughts, and a life apart from him. I truly believe he was unable to perceive that, and when he was confronted with evidence of it, he was very threatened by it.

He saw me as an extension of himself, someone there to provide him with good feelings, attention, affection, and the stroking of his ego. He rarely reciprocated in any meaningful way, and he rarely if ever showed any meaningful interest in me or my life or my thoughts or feelings. He was addicted to me, and when he'd had enough, he broke the addiction and went on to repeat the same pattern by attaching himself to someone else right away. I meant nothing to him after that, because he'd used me up; I could no longer meet his needs, he was no longer addicted to me, I did not have a separate existence as someone he cared about in any meaningful way.

I can't claim to have a perfect understanding of real love, but I believe real love to be basically defined by self-sacrifice on behalf of the other person. The capability for mutual giving, mutual respect, mutual caring. Putting the other person before yourself. Valuing them as highly as you do yourself, or more so (in a healthy way). Choosing to love the person and remain committed to them even when it's difficult, rather than seducing and attaching yourself to someone out of infantile need. It's an adult process, rather than a child process. You don't need the other person, and you don't discard them when you become bored or see someone "better". At least that's how I think about it, but I had to come to the conclusion that when it came to this guy and my relationship with him, he didn't love me, though he swore he did. I don't think he knows the true meaning of love, and nor do I think he's capable of loving anyone truly, except perhaps himself. It's actually really sad to me that he is that way and cannot see it, and barring something drastic is likely to keep repeating the same pattern and re-victimizing more women (he's had more relationships than I could count).

On the positive side a self-aware person with HPD can have insights into the conflicts they feel. Thanks to yyyyy for making this honest post in another thread -

histrionic-personality/topic105066.html#p1026929

On the negative side, the posting does tell us something which is hard to get one's head around. A person with HPD can 'love' someone, but at the same time be thinking 'until I find a better replacement', which ends up being something like thinking of other people as 'shoes'; you find a good pair, enjoy it for a while, but eventually want a new pair. I.e., others are more then objects, but on some level still objects.

So cryptical I think your point about he doesn't exactly see you as a person is very possible. Yes it hurts to realize someone you care about, who seems to care about you, might really not, or at least not so much that he/she isn't thinking about who out there might be a better replacement. Of course whoever that is will eventually become the worn out pair of shoes too. Not sure if that should leave us feeling better or worse hmm.

Thanks for that link.

Yeah, it was really a huge shock to me that he was capable of replacing me so quickly and completely. Never imagined that in a million years. I thought (or at least was blind to any contradicting evidence) that he loved me and would always do so.

I don't want to paint myself as the innocent victim. That relationship taught me that I had some pretty severe codependency issues and unresolved issues from my dysfunctional upbringing that needed to be resolved. I know I hurt this guy too. However, I guess it's the issue where you expect other people to think or behave like you--I would never have just given up on the relationship, much less been able to replace him with someone so quickly like that. Also, at risk of sounding self-righteous, I've done some pretty hard work on my issues in the hopes of preventing another relationship disaster or picking someone like him (or past guys as well). He on the other hand thinks he is fine and doesn't need any introspection or change (as he told me more than once during our relationship). I don't hate him, I've forgiven him and don't hold a grudge, but it makes me really sad. I think you are right he's almost certain to do the same thing to this girl eventually, I feel sorry for her. Without some significant change, that seems to have been the pattern of his whole life, so I can't see this lasting either.

quoting XDude

On the positive side a self-aware person with HPD can have insights into the conflicts they feel. Thanks to yyyyy for making this honest post in another thread -

histrionic-personality/topic105066.html#p1026929

On the negative side, the posting does tell us something which is hard to get one's head around. A person with HPD can 'love' someone, but at the same time be thinking 'until I find a better replacement', which ends up being something like thinking of other people as 'shoes'; you find a good pair, enjoy it for a while, but eventually want a new pair. I.e., others are more then objects, but on some level still objects.

More anecdotal evidence that HPD is a Cluster B crossroads, with different sub-types spanning both the dissociative (dependent) and narcissitic (aloof and disingenuous) dimensions.

Also suggests why relationships with some HPDs are described as roller-coaster rides, in which the HPD alternately "loves" (in order to get intimate attention and validation), but then paradoxically retreats, due to a fear of intimacy or a desire to manipulate, or even sabotage the relationship.

And when the relationship begins to fail, they can sometimes quickly and coldly move on to the next infatuation:
“A wise girl kisses but doesn't love, listens but doesn't believe, and leaves before she is left.”
-Marilyn Monroe

Thank you, orion, xdude, crypitcal, and all else who have posted here. I don't see enough gratitude extended to all of you who give of your time to analyze situations and share their thoughts in writing. Your analyses and thoughts give me, at least, strength to be civil and compassionate, yet ensure that I stop short of providing whatever my ex-HPD "needs" from me during this breakup period such that he can hopefully further his movement away from me and venture farther into his online dating life. Yes, he still contacts me, fortunately via email. That mode allows me to step back, digest, categorize the latest disparagement, consider possible motivations for them, and respond as "flatline" as possible without being rude. I think he deserves respect, at the very least, as he grapples with his own emotions. And if none of his online dates take him out for his birthday later this month, I've offered to take him to dinner. I think I can do this, I think I can, I think I can...anyway, I have a couple of weeks to continue to rebuild my self-esteem before that to ensure my well-being, ha ha.

cryptical wrote:I believe real love to be basically defined by self-sacrifice on behalf of the other person. The capability for mutual giving, mutual respect, mutual caring. Putting the other person before yourself. Valuing them as highly as you do yourself, or more so (in a healthy way). Choosing to love the person and remain committed to them even when it's difficult, rather than seducing and attaching yourself to someone out of infantile need. It's an adult process, rather than a child process.

cryptical, are you a Christian? Your idea of love sounds very much like I Corinthians 13:4, et seq. I'd forgotten about that description of love. Thank you. The hard part is reminding myself that the "love" I feel isn't really love at all, but rather, a mere fantasy in which I had one of two starring roles, and while it feels real to me, it didn't really exist. I tell myself it's like one of my daydreams...fantastic while I'm daydreaming, but completely out of touch with reality...and therefore, not to be acted upon or relied upon...

@lookingtoheal: Very perceptive. I am indeed a Christian. And I believe 1 Corinthians 13 to be the definitive definition of love, if that makes sense Along with something Jesus said: "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) I believe again, love isn't want, it isn't need, it isn't desire, it isn't strong attraction, it isn't an attempt to heal yourself or gratify yourself or fulfill yourself through another person. I believe in essence it's the ability to give yourself to another person, to put them first, and to meet their needs even at cost to yourself. It requires maturity, stability, and a certain amount of healing of your own issues. I've been guilty both of "loving" in a way which was really need and dependence, and confusing that kind of attachment for love in the guys I've dated. Including the HPD guy.

Good on you being strong enough to resist this guy's communication and maybe attempts to reconnect. I really wish I'd been strong enough to do that, I repeatedly broke things off with this guy only to allow my own neediness and addictive attachment to drive me back again. I think, in the end, if he hadn't dropped me and taken up with someone else, that dance might be still going on. It did provide me the wake-up call I needed to seek some serious personal change, and for that I'm thankful.

One last note: this is the best description I've come across of what it's like to be in a relationship with someone with a personality disorder. Absolute gold. Including a great analogy about why they can "drop" relationships so quickly and take up with someone new right away: http://counsellingresource.com/lib/ther ... rstanding/

hpd's can love. i have witnessed it firsthand. but they cannot love for very long in my opinion. one may say that when they fall in love that they soon fall right out of it. i don't think it is intentional but they do continue with choosing to no longer love intentionally.

Cryptical, thanks for the link. Very helpful. I never thought of myself as a cheap, used car, but there you go. Maybe that will put the last year in perspective. Cheap car, easily expendable, and not always getting him where he wants to be. But Sometimes says that while he loved his cheap car, he really did love that car. That's soothing. Again, I can't relate, perhaps because I love and drive my cars until they die. But there you go again. It is what it is. But thanks again.

Here's my latest mind game--when I feel really low about this, like right now, I "tell" myself that it's better to feel something, anything, even lousy, than feel little or nothing at all. It's what makes us extraordinary. And the amount of effort we expend to better ourselves, no matter what our affliction, determines how much stronger we come out of the tunnel on the other side...mind game. Sometimes telling myself that works, other times, I just continue to feel lousy.

Another mind game--(lemons/lemonade, silver lining, etc. adage) the last year exposed my vulnerability to me, without which I would have continued on in ignorance, through who-knows-how-long until something truly evil snagged me. Thank goodness my injury was a heartbreak. Now I can find the self-motivation to work on eliminating the weaknesses that derive from that vulnerability and better myself, and hopefully be more compassionate to others, having experienced this kind of heartbreak myself...oh bother....thanks all.