Do HPD's really love?

by **orion13213** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:13 am

Hi Ghiggs

Thanks for your reply. However, in my opinion HPD is different in some ways from narcissism/NPD, and moreover it also varies continuously, which predicts that some HPD's will experience more empathy than others.

I asked

Do you think it is different for the 'softer', less severe subtypes (Appeasing, infantile, etc.)

You answered

To answer your question, I would have to say no because the Histrionic Personality Disordered Individual (HPDI) is a variant of narcissist.

...when you say "HPDI's love in a different way" I would have to disagree. I disagree because the HPDI like all other Personality Disordered perceives others as primarily adversarial. "Me against Them" The HPDI is a variant of narcissist and so is primarily self-serving.

Interesting, although I am aware of Cluster B combinations and behavioral overlaps (i.e. Vivacious HPD= HPD x NPD, a la Millon), I have never heard of HPD as a variety (subtype?) of NPD. If you are correct, how to explain the long history of the Hysterical Personality [Freud and Reich] /HPD [Millon and Kernberg] classification, as distinct from narcissism/NPD?...which continues right down thru though the latest DSM (V), in which

the current model, "Histrionism" (now a trait cluster, no longer HPD, which formerly would be considered a type)...Histrionism is now a confluence of three dimensions:

1. Emotional lability (shared with BPD)
2. Attention seeking (shared with NPD), and
3. Manipulativeness (shared with AsPD).

and the last I heard was that NPD had been resurrected as a full type, thus more robust than the lesser Histrionism trait cluster.

You are probably aware that some formerly thought HPD's were simply female AsPD's (female psychopaths), who reside on the narcissistic dimension with NPD's, which you seem to suggest as well:

They access your emotions and attempt to manipulate you with passive-aggressive manipulation in order to get what they want. This is done at YOUR expense. They have no difficulty applying this methodology despite its exploitative means and effect it has on their target.

You must remember, regardless of the manner in which they engage you, the pathology is still the same as they are feeding off you and manipulating you. You are NOT a true person to them so much as a representation of supply for them. (Sort of like a human Cornucopia Horn of Plenty filled with supply.) Basically, they are role-players and will adapt to whomever they interact with in the manner works which best with that particular target individual.

Try to imagine you yourself as a whole person, the HPDI will come along and hijack your body while striking off your head or mentally/emotionally lobotomizing you; while installing their own mind in your head and you then become a body with their mind inside it. This is the control they seek.

This exploitative agenda as you have described above seems similar to that of the AsPD, or NPD with one important difference - supply type:

-HPD's want attention (always positive like NPD's?, or does negative ever suffice?), whereas

whereas NPD's always want admiration, especially derived from accomplishments, politics, etc., and Malignant Narcissists and AsPD's want some form of power, variously derived through taking material possessions from others, humiliation, homicide and obliteration, etc.

Then there is the issue of male HPD's - a few years ago many would have been DX'd NPD's. I wonder how male HPD's would describe themselves, as different from NPD's?

Here you wrote

Additionally, the HPDI is distorted and mercurial in their nature.

Reminded me of Millon's Tempestuous HPD (HPD X BPD - emotional lability, aversive tension, maybe even explosive "blame storms")

If you resist them and don't surrender yourself to their manipulations and emotional tyranny, they will punish you by devaluing you as being "Too Much Trouble" and move on.

To me sounded like NPD abandonment...very aloof.

If you do abdicate your Self and willingly become the slave/sycophant they wish to to be so they can use/abuse they will eventually lose respect for you and view you with contempt and then devalue you and discard you anyway.

But what if they do this for a while, but then come back periodically, to re-establish the relationship? To me this return (sometimes apologetic, guilty) suggests the dependent dimension within many HPD's: indicating a lack of resolve to move on as a conquerer, due to an erosion of their own confidence as a conquerer - a shaky mental state, explained by the dependent child within. As you yourself stated:

However, the HPDI is also a dependent personality. They seek to stay in the protective safety and security of childhood.

Although I don't doubt your own experience (like you perhaps, I have also encountered NPD or Disingenuous HPD women), I have come to agree with X dude

So I do think (at least some) people with HPD are capable of both wanting love, and being empathetic even. The problem is more with reliability of empathy, a key expectation that the person with HPD both wants, but is often unable to give back themselves.

One fundamental and important reason for this: I believe that the genetics underneath Personality Disorders are many and complex, like those underlying height - whether one is a tall, medium, or short person, or an intermediate height between tall, medium, and short. That is, there are probably many genes predicting a PD, incl. HPD, and if this is true, this predicts continuous variation, just like height... a big bell curve made up of many step-like gene classes, made apparently smooth by the effects of development and childhood.

Which tends to support Masquerade's statement

To both nons and HPDs here, nothing is black and white, and there are no textbook cases.

Finally, I think it is rightfully left to any HPD members to respectfully answer your request:

I would be very interested to hear a Histrionic describe what they perceive as "True Love" since most HPDI's are not very cognitive to begin with.

If by "love", you mean able to care for certain others and see their needs and find and implement ways to satisfy those needs and desires because it feels good to do so, and be able to do it consistently and not for show or whatever, then no, HPDs aren't able to love.

I had to provide some small definition for "love" just to make things clear to HPDs on what we traditionally mean we talk about "love".

by **orion13213** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:45 am

I couldn't resist pulling these replies by an HPD out of the front of the thread, so they could be considered here, in order to reply to GHIGG'S request.

Both by goodbyenormajean (self-described as HPD).
While revealing a vague uncertainty, and a lack of conciseness often associated to varying degrees with HPD thought, Jean paradoxically demonstrates sensitivity and intelligence, maybe even a certain amount of empathy:

1. from Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:08 pm

I believe so. If I had not fell in love I would have never began to know myself/dislikes/likes and personality traits which in turn led to me finding out about HPD. It could take me years to love/trust someone. That is where the problem occurs. I've never maintained a serious relationship for more than a year and a half. The person that I loved it was on and off over half of my life so I do truly love that person. But most won't put up with the behaviors. Even if she had stayed you would have eventually left her anyways (most likely). I believe my mother to have HPD as well and though she was unhappy with my father she seems to be in a loving relationship now, someone to bicker with and someone that stands up to her better than dad did. She seems happy with it. That is the main phrase in everything I have read so far about the disorder that makes me so sad "may never be able to have a lasting and meaningful relationship" especially since its the one thing I've always wanted. My brother pointed mom out to me when I was talking about how much that upset me. He also asked if I've found happiness and if I believe my life has been worth living. I believe it has. I've been many places around the world and studied about lots of things and helped lots of people. One of the things past lovers have told me is that I need to learn how to love myself. That is what I am working toward. Getting in a good place where I can be comfortable with myself. I have always judged myself ten times harsher than anyone else will ever be able to. Also, they say that I need to learn the difference from sex and love. I have never learned to be intimate. I've realized that I am able to open up better now. I never really opened up to anyone before him, not even my best friend that I have known for 18 years. I never spoke of my family issues or anything like that before now. No intimacy. I have always cared for the men in my life though. I don't believe I'm NPD though exept those traits which overlap. Anyways, yes I believe so.

2. from Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:55 am

I've never cheated on anyone I have been in a serious relationship with. I think it's because I saw so much of it when I was young and how much pain that brought on to all involved. Children, spouse ect. My mother cheated on my father three times in the 20 years they were married, at least the ones I figured out. My best friend as a small child, her mother cheated on her father with a Deccan. I was told not to tell with them all. So I didn't. I also have never wanted anyone that didn't want me or anyone in a relationship. No attraction to my friends husbands ect. I read about a lot of cheating but I think that where I saw so much of it as a child that I have blockers up against this. Granted I haven't been in many serious relationships. I've been proposed to twice but all I could say was "I'm not ready" I say the same thing when they ask me to be saved, but now I am ready for that. The first man cheated on me and I knew I just never said anything to him or questioned him about it, I guess because it kept me from having to be serious, or because I thought it was the best I could do or a mixture of both. The second man I believe him now to have BPD. His dad beat his mother and he had broke his ex wife's back and was married another time and never told me for the first year we were together. I had a feeling he would have beat me if we were to have gotten married. After that relationship ended I didn’t try anymore. I dated a few men. One told me he thought I would be too much to keep up with, yet now that he is in a serious relationship with someone keeps trying to go out with me. We never made it to sex and I think that bothers him. I felt very uncomfortable when he used to IM and text me all of the time. I had to end the friendship, inadvertently. I quit logging onto anywhere he could IM me. I felt horrible like I was doing something really bad by talking to him because he kept being sexual and he had a girlfriend. Another I caught having sex with his brothers girlfriend in the bathroom, he showed sym ptoms of Antisocial personality and we got along great but he lied and I could always read when he was lying. After that I just kind of gave up for awhile and started seeing the same men over and over until this year. I think because they already know and accept me. And I really screwed up that new relationship by my behaviors to where I’m sure he is wishing to have never met me. I didn’t want to but with all that has been going on with me he was kind of caught in the middle. Well and finally, here is an answer to your question. When I am in a serious relationship I only desire that man. It is my own insecurities, obsessive behaviors, pulling drama out of my dysfunctional brain, comparing to past relationships, pushing away and pulling back in and dwelling on each situation that drives men away. No, I don’t want them to leave me. I’ve always wanted to be saved/protected. I’ve always chosen to date men much larger than me with deep voices. There is that incest undertone, I suppose. I was always afraid of my father’s deep voice and now that I am older I find a man with a deep voice very appealing. I guess with me I’ve always wanted to be with just one man. Get married have babies and settle down. I don’t know that that will ever happen with me. I honestly don’t think that any of the men I have dated or been with would say that everything is my fault. When my exes run into each other they say that I am a good person and tell the other to treat me well. I have been told that anyways. They always know each other because I have always kept contact. It was not unusual for a boyfriend to come over while an ex was visiting. The sad thing I never once thought how the other would feel by this. I know that they wonder about me often, and I have contact with all that I have ever dated except the one I thought would beat me. They call and email to ask if I am doing ok. Some have told me that they weren’t good enough for me and I always thought that it meant they just didn’t care about me or as a way to kindly get rid of me. I realize that as an Adult Child of Alcoholics that I put on an air of perfection. I want everything to be perfect and when it’s not I can’t take it, I work and work and work until whatever is wrong is fixed. When I run into men I went to high school with they look at me in awe the fact that I’m not married. They say they can’t believe I’m not yet. My thinking is so faulty. I always think everything is because of me, that I wasn’t attractive enough or that I was there to answer every phone call and didn’t let them chase enough, but it turns out it’s my behavior and my actions.
I have dated one guy that was able to stop my behaviors. He had no problems telling me how I was acting and telling me to stop it. I had no problems listening to him. He was so kind to me. He answered every text. He didn’t judge me. He was firm with me and kind. He was extremely honest about how I made him feel when I acted the way I did. But he is a few years younger than me and I believe he still hasn’t explored all that is out there and that the grass is always greener. He never wanted anything serious.
Anyways, I hoped this helped? I don’t think I will ever learn to be concise. I wish to concentrate more on my actions and my way of thinking than being concise. The people in my life love me and most have known me for five years or longer. They have accepted my personality. Because of this they will not tell me the truth of my actions/behaviors. They are either afraid of my reaction or they don’t want to hurt me. I know a lot of Non HPD on here does not want anything to do with those with HPD or believe that they have HPD but I hope that some would tell me of anything I do that is bothersome or show me truthfully that which I do that is not the norm. Hopefully without being mean, just honest and open as I try to be with you. Well, I had better stop here knowing me I would just keep writing and miss Christmas altogether.
Merry Christmas
Jean

by **xdude** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:53 pm

GHIGGS -

I think where we perceive this disorder differently is that I believe people with HPD swing in their emotional/mental state. There can be windows of time where they are empathetic, love, and see clearly. Those moments just don't last though, whether it's out of boredom, old wounds, defense mechanisms, those moments don't last. It's a different picture than one of a constant, cold-calculating personality type. It also differs from NPD types that are propped up mostly by their accomplishments, or a persistent belief of entitlement. Different than ASPD types that have built such walls that they are near entirely safe from human emotional entanglements.

I guess the way to say it is that I perceive HPD types as being somewhere between the emotionally unstable (and easily hurt) BPD personality type, and more stable personality types of NPD or ASPD.

p.s. Just from my limited experience, but when those with HPD are feeling loved? What does/should energizes most of us, what should leave us feeling ego strong? is all too easily used by those with HPD to seek out yet MORE from others. One shot of a drug feels good, but for an addict, more more more MORE! at any cost. We others though are not drugs. We don't exist just to provide emotional supply. We have feelings too and need reciprocal propping up. So the relationships ultimately fail.

by **GHIGGS** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:37 pm

I think we're getting off track here about the liabilities of Histrionic personality disordered individuals (HPDI's). HPDI's are not a "benign" eccentric personality. They are in fact dangerous to the physical and mental health of others.

Let's not forget the manipulation, lying scheming and duplicity HPDI's tend to engage in! HPDI's are NOT benign personalities! They can be terribly harmful and damaging! They can be malicious and vindictive. They can be calculating and ruthless (I.e. manipulation, lying, infidelity...) HPDI's can have shockingly damaging effects to the psyche's of Non-Disordered personalities. Coach Sandusky of Penn State was officially diagnosed as being a Histrionic Personality Disorder! Look at the tragic damage he has caused to numerous children and their lives! He also hid behind a veneer of benign harmlessness. He was very manipulative in managing his atrocities.

HPDI"s are dangerous, disordered personalities! They are harmful! Let's try not be defensive or sink into denial or minimize this disorder! Just because their dynamics vary from some of the more extreme personality disorders doesn't mean they aren't harmful themselves or capable of doing terrible damage to other people!

The HPDI will go out and have extra-marital affairs and contract STD's and bring it home and infect her husband! An HPDI will walk out of their house and family to meet a man across country she met on the Internet that she's never even seen before without care of her own children or husband!

An HPDI will profess her love to her husbands best friend or brother! An HPDI will leave her husband 3 months after marriage and move in with another man she's only just met a week ago.

An HPDI will engage in sexual intercourse with another man across town on her wedding anniversary while her husband is at work planning a romantic evening of dinner at a 5 star restaurant, Broadway play or dancing and presenting her a fabulous piece of jewelry at evenings end after making love with his wife.

An HPDI will say she loves you and then marry someone else two days later without your knowledge!

An HPDI will have sex with her husband and then call police an hour later on an innocent husband and start screaming when they arrive and accuse him of rape and abuse to have him arrested and removed from his own home and then move her extra-marital boyfriend into the same house the next day! :shock:

An HPDI will lie and manipulate so incessantly you will have a major anxiety episode or breakdown as a result. An HPDI will engage in all of these activities with no conscience at all or concern for the consequences to those around her.

I've seen these experiences happen! I've lived some of them! :!:

Histrionic Personality Disorder is a SERIOUS and DANGEROUS mental illness! They ARE harmful and they ARE dangerous! They are pathologically disordered! Let's not forget that!

by **masquerade** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:09 pm

Hi GHIGGS. It sounds as if you have a lot of anger towards people who have HPD in general, due to your own experiences, which from the sound of it have affected your opinions of all those who have the disorder. I wonder if it would help you to share your own specific experiences that have caused so much anger, in a separate thread specifically for nons? It sounds as if you have a lot to share, that would comprise a thread in its own right.

by **orion13213** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:24 pm

GHIGGS
First of all, a review seems to be in order:
The main purpose of Psych Forums is to
(1)help people suffering with HPD, and/or
(2)those Non-HPD's (ex's, family members, etc.) who have had harmful experiences with HPD's, and who are trying to understand the disorder, either for their own mental health, and/or that of their loved one.
So, according to the Forum Rules (see above, in red), those persons who cannot interact respectfully with either HPD's or Non-HPD's, or who otherwise don't agree with Psych Forum's goals, are respectfully advised to observe only. The management team can always enforce the forum rules in stronger ways, when forced to.

Anyhow, we aren't just here to bash HPD's, blame them for what are Non-HPD faulty judgements, lock them up, and throw away the key, and, we are also here to listen to Non-HPD's who have been hurt in such relationships, and neither do we allow any HPD's who might want to dump on them do so, either.
Hopefully, fair is fair enough for all.

Keeping everyone together in harmony is a never-ending challenge, but the fundamental assumption (faith?) is that there is some important and peaceful place where the HPD and the the Non HPD experience intersect.
For example, I believe that as a Non-HPD, I have already been to this place with Masquerade, who describes herself as a recovering HPD. Both her and I want to share this place with anyone else who would like to come on in and relax.

In order to reach this junction, a road map of sorts is required, a road map which describes what we are all experiencing. Since I am not a professional psychologist or a psychiatrist, I have leaned from the work of others, professionals who have made understanding HPD and other PD's their career. I don't know if this is absolute truth, but I do accept the general reliability that is required of a professional reputation...so to me it is a starting place made by someone who knows more than I do about the subject.

According to Theodore Millon, a recognized authority on personality disorders, HPD is fundamentally different from NPD or AsPD in that HPD's are not 'self' oriented, but rather 'other' oriented...that is, they look outwardly to others for approval.

Beyond that fundamental difference, like all things human being it gets complex:

From "Millon's Histrionic Personality Subtypes" (see http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm)
1. Appeasing HPD (Dependent Features)
Seeks to mend, placate, patch-up. smooth over troubles; knack for settling differences, moderating tempers by yielding, compromising, conceding; sacrifices self for commendation, fruitlessly placates the unplacatable.
2. Vivacious HPD (narcissisitic features)
Vigorous, charming, bubbly, brisk, impulsive; seeks momentary cheerfulness and playful adventures, animated, energetic, ebullient.
3. Tempestuous HPD (negativistic features)
Impulsive, out of control; moody complaints, sulking; precipitous emotion, stormy, impassioned, easily wrought-up, periodically inflamed; turbulent.
4.Disingenuous HPD (antisocial features)
Underhanded, double-dealing, scheming, contriving, plotting, crafty, false-hearted, egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating, guileful.
5.Theatrical HPD (variant of "pure" pattern)
Affected, mannered, put-on, postures are striking, eye-catching, graphic, markets self-appearance, is synthesized, stagy, simulates desirable/dramatic poses.
6.Infantile HPD (borderline features)
Labile, high-strung, volatile emotions, childlike hysteria and nascent pouting, demanding, overwrought; fastens and clutches to others; is overly attached, hangs on, stays fused to and is clinging.

So with regard to your experiences/description, yes, some HPDs are like that (the Vivacious, Tempestuous and Disingenuous would seem to fit your description, and they seem to be the ones that hurt others the most) but other HPD's are not like that. From what I have seen my speculation is it depends on a combination of
(1) inherited temperment, and
(2) particularly bad developmental episodes they experienced, such as abuse.

In any case, you are free to express what you went thru with someone who may have been HPD, but please do so in a respectful way, one that doesn't paint any other HPD participants here with a broad brush. As Masquerade said, you might want to start a seperate thread, because this one is more abut the question of love, and as a general rule derailing threads is not allowed.

We don't want to trigger HPD's - PF is here to help them recover or become self-aware, too.

Thanx

Orion 8591
Moderator

by **Randomnosity** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:35 pm

GHIGGS, just letting you know you are spot on. HPDs (and several other PDs) can be very damaging to others who fall into their traps.

[edited]

by **BreakingSad** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:29 pm

Randomnosity wrote:GHIGGS, just letting you know you are spot on. HPDs (and several other PDs) can be very damaging to others who fall into their traps.

They can, of course.

But like has been said we aren't here to bash anyone but rather understand, learn and hopefully grow as nons and HPD sufferers alike.

Maybe I'm a sap but holding onto anger for anything your HPD put you through will only construe to hurt yourself. Let go.

by **GHIGGS** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:06 pm

To all concerned,

I am NOT BASHING HPDI's!!! What I am doing is reiterating the REALITY of dealing with this personality disorder! As for my own experiences, I am not feeling anger so much as respect for a dangerous individual! This is the same as admiring a tiger in the wild.

We can all appreciate it for what it is and how magnificent tigers are; but we must never lose sight of the fact it can be very dangerous to us if we do not respect the realities of what they are capable of! Despite the tigers beauty and magnificence, we are all advised to stay away from them for the reality that they cause us serious harm or death. This is called RESPECT!

As for trying to promote "Togetherness" I remind you, all therapists advise it is healthier and better for Non-Disordered individuals to stay away from persons with personality disorders! The literature is replete with this advisement. They all advise we disconnect and terminate relationships with the personality disordered whenever possible.

Treatment of PD's is terribly difficult, complicated, extensive and arduous for patient and professional alike. The prognosis is likewise not encouraging. This is not to say there are no exceptions to person's who have accomplished relative progress and success with their diagnosis. We all know there are exceptions to the rule. However, the rule still stands about those with personality disorders.

For those with PD's in their families or being married to them, we are given strategies to help us manage these PD's and how to help maintain boundaries and our own psychological health. Ultimately, we are all advised we may reach a point where we must sever contact with a PD despite the relationship connection. These are established realities. I didn't establish them.

HPDI's tend to be very attractive and sexualized. They draw us in. And then when we engage them, their pathology presents and we are suddenly locked in a dysfunctional dynamic that only gets worse over time.

I wrote what I wrote to reaffirm to everyone that the Histrionic Personality Disordered Individual can be a serious threat and danger to one's mental and physical health. This has already been established throughout the literature.

I also called attention to the fact the posts seemed to minimize the liabilities one faces when they become involved with an HPDI. Everyone is free to express their opinions and experiences and perceptions from both points of view. However, I'm not trying to sugarcoat the realities of what one faces with HPDI's. As a medical professional myself, I cannot afford to. The reality is what must be confronted.

As a matter of fact, that is exactly one of the dynamics one faces when involved with an HPDI; the Non-disordered individual minimizes, rationalizes and finds all other sorts of excuses to avoid facing the hard reality of who and what they are involved with.

For those who've experienced this, you know what I'm talking about! Anger has nothing to do with it. I was not angry when I wrote my post. I am focusing on the behavior of HPDI's and what they are capable of and the damage they do to others. We need to be reminded of this!

HPDI's say many things; however, we must watch their behavior rather than trust their words as these can be totally divergent at times.

This is similar to the HIV/AIDS problem we face today. Today, many people minimize the seriousness of AIDS/HIV because of the "Cocktail" medications and advances in medical treatment which have effectively helped to manage the disease. However, this does not MINIMIZE the reality that AIDS/HIV is still a very serious and deadly disease and still a major threat to one's health!

HPDI is a serious mental illness. That is reality. Many people have been terribly injured, affected, impacted or even killed because of this serious personality disorder. I just wanted to reacquaint everyone with that reality. I'm not bashing anyone. I'm reminding everyone of what HPDI is and how dangerous it can be.

The HPDI is not truly capable of true love (as we define and understand "Love")of others. The literature states this. The HPDI is a chameleon of human behavior. They mimic whatever behavior they think you will be most receptive and malleable to and then they engage you. They are not in it to contribute to you and your life. They engage you to see what they can take from you and your life.

Say what you will about "How differently you (HPDI's) love...!" I don't believe it.
The behavior HPDI's display is not genuine loving behavior. The duplicity and lying manipulations are not loving behaviors. The infidelity is not loving behavior. And the effects they have on others does not feel like love.

Most relationships with HPDI's end as disasters. This is reality. And after time has passed, the HPDI will call back their former husband or partner and try to convince them to reconcile and get back together again with them. The Non-disordered partner feels all warm and tingly inside and says to themselves, "Maybe they've changed! Maybe we can still work things out and be happy again like when we first met!"

The partner forgets the reality of who and what they are dealing with. This is denial! Malignant Optimism!

We all know what will happen again after the HPDI has reacquired their former partner again...the exact same thing if not worse of what took place previously.

UNLESS THE HPDI HAS HAD PRODUCTIVE TREATMENT FROM A MENTAL HEALTH/MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL! :!:

I'm not trying to bash anybody. I am just restating that HPD is a serious mental illness and one must always remember that. I feel that is a very important contribution to all.

For all those recovering PD's, I applaud your courage and dedication to living a more balanced and healthy life for your own sake as well as those you now sincerely care about. You are truly a rare and wonderful exception to the rule. I commend you for your recovery. More should follow your example.

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