How can I tell if it's grandiosity or self confidence?

I’ve noticed since my epiphany that I’m more grandiose than ever. Or maybe, with the outer mask of worthlessness and inferiority nearly gone (or so it seems since I became self aware), my grandiosity is no longer hidden so it’s more noticeable to myself (and probably to others), though I try to curb those tendencies.

I realized today just how grandiose some my thoughts really are. I’m not always sure what’s healthy self confidence and what’s grandiosity. What’s realistic and what’s BS insane. I’m not used to consciously experiencing either grandiosity or confidence so it’s hard to tell the difference.

I have these big ideas. They seem doable. I never had big ideas (or even little ideas) a year and a half ago, because I thought I was $#%^. But I still feel like I have to get reassurance from others that these big ideas I’m having are actually realistic and that I don’t sound insane. I actually asked someone today, “do I sound crazy to you?”

The DSM-V definition for NPD says of grandiosity:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is this me? I don’t know. I know I’m good at a few things, but do I expect to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements? What constitutes commensurate achievements? I haven’t actually achieved anything much in this life so far, but I have a goal now. I never did before. Isn’t having a goal to achieve something sort of narcissistic? Or is it self confidence? Have I become more confident? Or more grandiose? I really have no idea.

I will say this. I think true self confidence is something narcissists lack. Most narcissists hate themselves and overcompensate by having a grandiose false self that thinks it’s all that but is dependent on supply from others to remain viable. Without supply, the false self deflates like a balloon with a hole in it and the narcissist is forced to face their true self, atrophied and stunted due to years of neglect.

Can the true self ever really grow up and become a functioning adult, or has it passed its “critical period” — a timeframe where proper care and enough loving attention is essential for a child (or young animal) to grow and thrive?

Healthy self confidence seems different to me. It’s not arrogant, entitled, and doesn’t suffer narcissistic injury or fly into a narcissistic rage when not validated. Self confidence doesn’t come off as grandiosity, but just a conviction that one is capable of achieving a goal.

I know what the difference is between grandiosity and confidence in an intellectual way. I’m just not sure whether what I’m experiencing is self confidence or grandiosity. I feel like such a babe in the woods.

I don't think you sound grandiose at all, it does sound like you may be over analysing yourself maybe a bit too much, kind of overthinking things trying to work it out and going round in circles? Maybe I am wrong but I used to do that to myself all the time for years, not that I am so sure of myself that I don't question myself now but you can become a bit obsessed and end up analysing everything you say and do trying to find reasons in everything when sometimes there is no real reason and it becomes a bit of an addiction with your thought process! Of course its good to be aware of yourself and understand why you do or say things you do and to contemplate things.

I think you were grandiose you wouldn't even question whether you actually were or not, you would probably already assume that you weren't grandiose even though you are!?

If that makes any sense?

Ladywith3cats wrote:I actually asked someone today, “do I sound crazy to you?”

The DSM-V definition for NPD says of grandiosity:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is this me? I don’t know.

Depends on the ideas. I remember when I was about 6-7 I had the idea I could build a boat. I declared it so to my dad and his girlfriend, and then proceeded to the garage. A few minutes later they heard the sound of a circular saw cutting through plywood. I was quite confident as I explained to my dad we could do it. "It's simple. We'll cut this back piece.. and use 2x4s for the floor, and..." He talked me down. (I'm sure his girlfriend was mortified to hear a 7-year-old operating a power saw.).

I've been that way for as long as I remember. I have many unfinished big ideas.

I think it's the unfinished nature of those ideas. That's when it starts to be grandiose. I appear to overestimate my abilities. As my dad said once: "You're just an idea guy." I may have the ideas, or consider them more realistic than they really are, to soothe my boredom. To imagine being "that person."

I used to be very careful at work because I had a couple ideas that nearly killed me. Ideas involving a Fortune 50 company and millions of dollars a day of commerce with hundreds of trading partners. Working 18 hour days, 7 days a week for four solid months. I even remember commenting to my boss's boss: "I'm never sending another email again." He said "good!" (I pulled that one off, but it could have been a massive disaster.).

I would never ask someone if my ideas were too big. I would get them into it, then punish them for my ideas not working out as I thought. (I was pretty bad to my team members.).

Ladywith3cats wrote:I know I’m good at a few things, but do I expect to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements? What constitutes commensurate achievements? I haven’t actually achieved anything much in this life so far, but I have a goal now. I never did before. Isn’t having a goal to achieve something sort of narcissistic? Or is it self confidence? Have I become more confident? Or more grandiose? I really have no idea.

I wouldn't say a goal is narcissistic. Grandiosity and entitlement as you're asking about would be lying on your resume. Not just embellishing some details, like that you led a project when you weren't designated the leader, or your proficiency with a computer language. It would be something like lying about having a degree. Or, being very private at work so people will think you're someone you're not. In similar manner, you wouldn't have friendships outside of work because you'd want people at work to imagine you live a more glamorous, ornamental lifestyle.

It might involve being angry that a department at work hired someone off the street instead of considering you for the job. You might not have even applied for it, just made a couple inquiries, and felt your desirability would make that enough without formal "application."

Ladywith3cats wrote:I will say this. I think true self confidence is something narcissists lack.

Absolutely. Confidence is entirely false-self. Like @akuma's example of arguing with the baker. I can argue like crazy, but when it's personal in some way (really feeling wronged) I can't stand up for myself. If you knew how impentrable I am, you'd think it's amazing.

An example: a few years ago I witnessed a guy riding his bike against traffic, and he was hit by a car making a right turn, because the driver was looking left, not right. I stopped to be a witness. The rider was yelling at the driver, a little woman who I don't think spoke English. I got between them. He was 1" from my face yelling at me. I didn't take it personally because I understood he was shaken up. But, I told him the city law is that cyclists must ride with the flow of traffic *precisely* because of what happened. He got even more abusive that I said it was hist fault.

I think a normal person would have engaged in a ugly shouting match, sinking to his level. But, I couldn't do that. I felt anger and fear at the same time. Like @akuma's example, I didn't know who I should be made at. I didn't know him from me. My emotions were mixed. I literally wanted to harm him, but I was afraid of those emotions. I felt a conflict. So, I feigned calmness, maturity, I'm "above" this. (When he eventually calmed down he said he didn't have the money to replace the bent wheel. I gave him my contact info and told him I could fix it. I never heard from him. Maybe he got the driver to buy him a new one. Or, maybe he was embarrassed to learn he really was in the wrong.).

Anyway, my FS "capabilities" are the things I first worked on cultivating into a more TS. I learned to draw upon them more normally (not marshaled by the FS's Parent-self who seemed to be inspired by the "Presence" which I now believe is my TS's fractured memory). That was my initial "outward" learning which was coupled with "inward" examination about what went wrong with any "outward practice.

Ladywith3cats wrote:Can the true self ever really grow up and become a functioning adult,

I don't think so. I believe I replied to one of your previous threads on the topic, mentioning how it's never clear what someone means by TS. It seems some think their TS is their Ego, the part of them existing in the moment, aware of what's happening, making choices. (I consider that my Agent-self.). Yes, that can become mature and effective with the TS capabilities (taking control of them, not being "in the back seat.").

For me, the TS is a 4yo who was sequestered away for decades. It's a broken person. It has improved. Maybe I've improved at meeting its needs. But, it's not going to become an adult. It's just better integrated into the FS capabilities I've harnessed with my Agent-self. It has valid emotions and sensitivities. It's a large part of me getting better and understanding why I do what I do. It's more functional and mature through inheritance of the integration. All parts have become better that way. But, they're not one person.

The FS's dominant part (the Parent, the hyper critic) is the one piece I don't work with much. I try to put it with my conscience, and recognize over-critical conscience as it occurs. It seems to be working. It's still there. I just attribute it to conscience and tone it down as I notice it. That seems better than considering it part of my personality. Maybe I should intentionally try to embrace it as part of my personality.

I guess time will tell about your question. I think it would depend about how you pursue your goal, how you handle setbacks, if you lose interest because a new goal seems more purposeful.

Echoing TTL, you need to examine your ideas. Are they massive and vastly beyond your current lifestyle or skill set? Do you believe you're meant to complete them and does that sensation make you giddy, knowing the enormity of what you will achieve?

When I get a big idea, I absolutely believe I'm entitled to the end result and am going to get there, no matter how large or absurd. I didn't just pick up a bass guitar and think I'd like to learn how to play this because I'd enjoy it, I went straight into I'm going to learn this and be incredible and end up on a stage screamed at by thousands of fans, and I absolutely believed it was achievable. I kinda still do. It's like, if I dedicate myself to this thing, I know I have the capacity to be mindblowing. I can look at those goals from where I am now and understand them from a pathological point of view and I'm aware of their being technically unrealistic, but because I feel innately capable, despite knowing there's a decent amount of narcissistic delusion, I'm still entitled to that level of success and adulation.

I can't settle for halves. My writing has to be the best writing in the world. My books have to be bestsellers and made into movies and they have to inspire generations. My art has to achieve worldwide recognition. My body has to be godlike. I have to work with celebrities because I'm entitled to mingle with figures of that calibre.

Except I'm isolated in a messy house and I've published only one book and the ones I really wanted to get out there are all half finished. The guitar is sat in the top bedroom gathering dust. I can sell myself like a pro, but I don't have anyone come back here, into this.

Goals, even big ones, are generally not pathological. It's good to have something to work towards. If they're all massive and stacked up incomplete and don't match up anywhere against your current trend or skill or potential, then you might have cause to critically examine them as disordered.

I have an innate confidence that co-exists with the knowledge that I lack skills in any area. It seems to exist despite my ineptitude. (Something to do with lack of self respect, probably.) However, like TTL says, I can't defend myself against criticism, because I have no real confidence in myself, though no-one who knows me would believe that. I don't think I deserve to defend myself. (As far as personal qualities go.)

I think one type of narcissist is aimless and has no goals. I don't have ambition, nor personal interests.

cargo wrote:I think one type of narcissist is aimless and has no goals. I don't have ambition, nor personal interests.

I was like that until I found an occupation which was both status'y (then), could keep me occupied (intense focus, single-mindedness) and didn't involve people.

It's funny you caused me to think of this because before even being self-aware, I often felt fortune to be born when I was. (5 years either way and it would not have been available to me. It would have been too common too soon, or too obscure.). I don't know how I would have survived had I had to struggle more than I did.

I can remember thinking of that many years ago. I knew it then, without knowing why. That's another one of those "across the field" moments, how I would have never thought of this back then. I often thought I was Aspergers to explain that awareness I had of my unique "fit" in time. That's as far as I could explain it. I can spell it out perfectly now.

Lw3C, I'm a non (I think), but I have the grandiose ideas as well. It's mostly business-related - stuff owners could do or product improvements corporations could consider.

Sometimes, I act on these ideas, and I know I seem like a weirdo to whomever I'm with at the time.

Without hesitation, I've sent emails to company "Contact Us" addresses about potential improvements, such as to a car-seat. Those emails probably waste my time and theirs, as I'm not an engineer or an auto safety expert. At a mini-conference, for example, while walking with a co-worker to check out some new tech start-ups, and meeting the owners and mktg vp's, I blurted out an idea for a different application to an owner - one that would involve quite a bit of implementation work and create a new client base for the company. "Wow, you could even ..... with this software!!!" My co-worker, upon departing from that exhibit, said something to the effect that it was a great idea but probably to the wrong company. It would involve at least a doubling in size for successful implementation. I worried then that delivering such an idea had had some kind of a negative effect on our employer, which was on our name tags. I remembered thinking, next time, next time, I need to keep my mouth shut.

So I think this is also grandiosity - if I later worry about having told people my ideas. Negative effect.

But it may simply mean I'm compulsive in communications, rather than being a pwNPD. So maybe having big ideas is a normal human brain function, but the communication, implementation, execution, follow-through, etc., are impacted by our capabilities in the interpersonal realms. These are skills that can be developed.

Have you thought about starting to journal your ideas in a separate file, then fill in a table of next steps to see if you can begin to develop plans? I'm not saying you are going to go through with your ideas, but working on next steps might help you see whether or not you are actually interesting in spending your time and energy on follow-through.

Wow. So many replies!
I think I have been tending to beat myself up too much because of my tendency to overanalyze everything I do and say now, now that I know I'm cNPD. I know I just need to take it easy and relax a little.
That being said, I think the goal I have that's gelled together isn't really that grandiose. Sure, I have fantasies of fame and fortune, and that's probably not realistic, but I suppose everyone (even nons) have those feelings sometimes. I think it's just human nature.

I think most N traits are natural and human, but just taken to an extreme in people with NPD. For those low on the spectrum, maybe not as much, but still too much to be "normal." The problem I've always found when I've been grandiose (and it's usually been hidden, so well hidden even I wasn't aware of it!) is that it usually leads to disappointment, because it's not based on reality, but on fantasy. It's a contruct of the FS not the TS. But sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

I know it's okay to sometimes want to toot my own horn. But I'm so careful now to control my N traits that I probably overdo it sometimes and beat myself up for having normal reactions!
Thanks for all the advice, it's appreciated. Lots to think about.

HR_p wrote:It's mostly business-related - stuff owners could do or product improvements corporations could consider.

I do that too. Sometimes something stands out to me for some reason I can't explain, and I become very motivated to point out my brilliant vision. I always thought of it as good-natured, altruistic. It's people like me who make the difference. Observant, willing to take the time to provide feedback. Why, if a product's design were changed slightly, hundreds (thousands) of people's lives might be just a little better on that day they think, "if it just had this feature."

That's another reason I always thought Asperger/ADD explained a lot of me.

Now I think it's showing off. But, more than that, it was a constant worldview or existence. It was how I thought. And, there was a level of passive aggression involved. Not simply altruistic to show off, but to point out how I could do that better. If I just chose to get into the aircraft building business.... I'd show everybody.

It wasn't just creating supply. That's the obvious answer. It wasn't just casting a business into my narrative to bolster my self-image. There was definitely an additional element of "you're asleep at the wheel. How could you not see this? Frankly, someone should be fired." That is a supply multiplier. It's the hubris I posted about in the pride/shame thread. Feeling good about myself with a seasoning of putting someone else down.

That's probably what distinguishes a pathology from an ordinary suggestion. I don't think anyone who makes a suggestion is necessarily putting someone down. But, if suggestions are major rememberances of accomplishments, or when they felt better about themselves, if they do it a lot, it wouldn't surprise me if they wouldn't find hubris at its source.

This reminds me of how I treated women. I posted last night about how I had a yearning for a connection, and would imagine what other couples talked about, if they valued what they had (or took it for granted). I said I would have never seen those layers of motivation behind that "tendency" (it was a dysphoric state I was in).

I was thinking later, and my example about suggestions reminded me more of it. I had the same passive-aggressive hubris with women. I was so aware of it that I told the last 1-2 girlfriends that I'm so dedicated to making things perfect for the woman that I actually come across as crabby and they should know that it's just me trying to make things perfect for them.

That made me laugh last night because, that's another example of how I would have *NEVER* understood it the way I do now. I had to make things perfect for them because I needed the mirror object to be perfect, to mirror perfection back to me. My crabbiness was that it wasn't perfect for the object. The object could be perfectly happy, but still it wasn't perfect as *I* think it should be. And, if the object is happy, that's invalidating the emphasis I place on how much better it can be. What am I to do if they'll "settle" like this?

I would have *never* saw it that way. There would have been 5 realizations I would have had to have just to make it to that level. And, there would still be another realization (or ten) to reach the point that it's really *my* perfection I need to see through the object.

It's amazing to me to think about now. (The "from across the field" moment.). But, that's an example of how unaware an N is. I honestly felt excluded, "on the outside looking in," and felt I had to find someone who valued a relationship as much as I do. It would have only *barely* crossed my mind that perhaps I value a relationship too much. If I had that thought, I would have resigned to never being in one of those fake relationships which seems so common. Surely there must be someone who knows what it's like!

It would have gone no further than that. The twisted "casting" the other person into my narrative is exactly like casting a company. The contempt (crabbiness) I might hold for the partner who doesn't *want* the perfection create for them is like the position I placed myself in pointing out how a product could be perfect. Both have an element of hubris, pushing the other person down to meet (or prove) my self-image.

Oh well. That's how pathology is. Normals would make a suggestion and forget they made it. Or, they would tell their partner why they should strive for better, not internalize it (and passive-aggressively make the point. They wouldn't even project their own imperfections on the other person.).

I think that's entirely grandiosity and entitlement. It's implied everyone's an object. How much more grandiose can that be? And, the objects exist to feed our inner narrative, we're entitled to use them for that purpose.

Ladywith3cats wrote:Can the true self ever really grow up and become a functioning adult, or has it passed its “critical period” — a timeframe where proper care and enough loving attention is essential for a child (or young animal) to grow and thrive?

I was thinking about this more and thought of something which might be relevant to you because you've been diagnosed BPD and people here have commented that your traits seem to be more B.

I always identified closest to BPD. It just didn't fit in some very clear ways. But, it was the closest of the 4-6 things I identified with. A couple months ago I had an experience triggered by a significant realization. What happened was that my emotions receded. It was weird because I had been suffering very badly emotionally for two years. I thought it was normal regret, sorrow, contrition. I think it was actually narcissistic injury for tearing my defenses down. It was grief for myself, not for the person I thought it was for.

I had that new outlook about the prior two years pretty quickly. (In a day or two I suspected it.). But, it was more than that because I felt numb. It wasn't like I had gone back to how I felt before the shattering two years earlier. It was like I was vastly less emotional.

It appears I lived with simmering emotions just beneath the skin. I think that fits into the hypervigilance. I wasn't just living in my narrative, but I was like a walking bruise that could hemorrhage at the slightest bump. I didn't know it because I had nothing to compare to. It's only been the past couple months that I've been exposed to what I believe is how normal people exist.

My point is: Maybe more typical Ns exist this way. Maybe that level of emotional sensitivity was why I identified with BPD as much as I did. It seems like this happened as I began to be more aware of my TS. (I mentioned I focused almost exclusively on harnessing the good parts of the FS). So, was thinking maybe you'll find relief from your emotions by getting in touch with your TS (more).

You mentioned being more grandiose now. That has happened to me too. I think that might be part of why my TS's emotions lightened up. I think that more confident and happier existence leads to a safer existence for the TS. It might also be more genuinely an expression of the TS's youthfulness. (Moderation in all things, however.).

==== correction:
Also, in my first reply a paragraph ended "Yes, that can become mature and effective with the TS capabilities (taking control of them, not being "in the back seat.")." That should have been FS. I'm sure you knew what I meant since I'd said there wasn't much left to my TS. I wasn't going to reply to correct it. But, I'll mention it now.