Pride/Shame the root of NPD?

Truth too late wrote:One way Ns hide weakness is by weakening others. (I.e., it's all relative. I'm stronger if others are weaker.). Shame is the most direct word for weakness. It is the opposite of pride. What better word describes false strength? (We project our shame to feel proud.).

I wrote the above in another thread a few days ago. I thought it wouldn't hurt to try and keep that separate from larger topic of cures.

Today the word "hubris" came to mind. I haven't had the occasion to use that word in a long time. Like always, I checked to see if something has a different meaning for me today. (I've noticed things aren't always how I thought they were, to put it mildly.). In this case, I'm quite impressed how I missed the mark.

Here's wikipedia:

In ancient Greek, hubris referred to actions that shamed and humiliated the victim for the pleasure or gratification of the abuser.

Aristotle defined hubris as shaming the victim, not because of anything that happened to a person or might happen to a person, but merely for that person's own gratification.

Crucial to this definition are the ancient Greek concepts of honor and shame. The concept of honor included not only the exaltation of the one receiving honor, but also the shaming of the one overcome by the act of hubris.

In its modern usage, hubris denotes overconfident pride and arrogance. Hubris is often associated with a lack of humility,

That's exactly what I had in mind. I don't think anything better describes unhealthy narcissism. For example: the mirror, leading to push-pull, gaslighting. It spirals into what is essentially extracting unwarranted pride for myself without regard for the shame the other person may feel. (I think of it as preservation. Not predation. But, it's still based upon a need to fill a hole of self-esteem. That action can only be pride.).

I don't realize I'm doing it. But, ultimately it's to live up to my private, unrealistic sense of self. By being private, the interaction is asymetric. It usually is a disadvantage to the other person. It's just a question of when the other person discovers it (through a process of elevating myself, my private view of equality which usually is in my favor.).

What's interesting is that there is also a cause-and-effect: the inescapable Greek Nemesis (retribution for hubris) who leads Narcissus to pine away for what he cannot have. That ties into what I was trying to say in that other thread:

An accusation of hubris often implies that suffering or punishment will follow, similar to the occasional pairing of hubris and nemesis in Greek mythology.

The proverb "pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall" is thought to sum up the modern use of hubris.

It is also referred to as "pride that blinds," "that pride that goes just before the fall [stumble] ".

historian Ian Kershaw uses both hubris and nemesis as titles. Hubris, describes Hitler's early life and rise to power. Nemesis, concludes with his fall.

I can relate to the part about falling from blindness. I used to believe being accused of hubris is flattery. I thought it meant you had earned recognition as an expert. What better example of pride could exist than reshaping a word that describes unhealthy narcissism's core (IMO) into a positive attribute?

I like this word. I think this is like how the word "narcissism" never resonated with me (I saw myself as shamed, not proud.). Now "hubris." I wonder if my subconscious steered me away from considering those terms. If it was "selective."

TTL - I've read that Codependents don't like compliments. Is that correct?

Truth too late wrote:

In ancient Greek, hubris referred to actions that shamed and humiliated the victim for the pleasure or gratification of the abuser.

Aristotle defined hubris as shaming the victim, not because of anything that happened to a person or might happen to a person, but merely for that person's own gratification.

That sums up exactly what I've been saying since I joined this forum. I still don't really understand what drove me to hurt the person who loved and cared about me the most, and enjoy it. Perhaps it was, as I said in response to something that you'd written elsewhere, because she saw and loved me, flaws and all, and disliked those flaws.

More generally, I think that perhaps I saw kindness as weakness, and enjoyed hurting (shaming?) those who showed it? I don't know. It seems - in my case - to have been unconscious sadism, since it happened when I felt relatively happy and relaxed.

Truth too late wrote:

Truth too late wrote:What's interesting is that there is also a cause-and-effect: the inescapable Greek Nemesis (retribution for hubris) who leads Narcissus to pine away for what he cannot have. That ties into what I was trying to say in that other thread:

An accusation of hubris often implies that suffering or punishment will follow, similar to the occasional pairing of hubris and nemesis in Greek mythology.

The proverb "pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall" is thought to sum up the modern use of hubris.

It is also referred to as "pride that blinds," "that pride that goes just before the fall [stumble] ".

historian Ian Kershaw uses both hubris and nemesis as titles. Hubris, describes Hitler's early life and rise to power. Nemesis, concludes with his fall.

I can relate to the part about falling from blindness. I used to believe being accused of hubris is flattery. I thought it meant you had earned recognition as an expert. What better example of pride could exist than reshaping a word that describes unhealthy narcissism's core (IMO) into a positive attribute?

I like this word. I think this is like how the word "narcissism" never resonated with me (I saw myself as shamed, not proud.). Now "hubris." I wonder if my subconscious steered me away from considering those terms. If it was "selective."

Yes, 'falling from blindness' is a good way of putting it, although I didn't feel shamed as you did. The degree of my self deception seems almost unbelievable, now. As for nemesis, (or karma), I can see how that has happened to a degree in my life. Do you think that it varies, to reflect the amount of hubris, and other behaviour, enacted, and their effects?

bitty wrote:That sums up exactly what I've been saying since I joined this forum. I still don't really understand what drove me to hurt the person who loved and cared about me the most, and enjoy it. Perhaps it was, as I said in response to something that you'd written elsewhere, because she saw and loved me, flaws and all, and disliked those flaws.

Torturing someone else is the closest thing to being cared for.

bitty wrote:Yes, 'falling from blindness' is a good way of putting it, although I didn't feel shamed as you did.

I didn't feel shamed until I became self-aware. Then it seemed like living with shame for 2 years. It feels more like acceptance now. Even new things I think of (which I couldn't bear to think of during the 2-year narcissistic injury I suffered as I realized what I am.).

It's almost like, if one doesn't accept the shame (in return for the pride they engaged in), the more subject they are to Nemesis (pinning after themselves, not realizing it isn't them -- and therefore can never have.).

bitty wrote:The degree of my self deception seems almost unbelievable, now.

It's astonishing to me. I used to joke about less gifted people, "I don't know how some people make it to work, and find their way home at the end of the day."

As out of touch with reality I was, that thought keeps coming to mind about myself. I don't know how I made it through life. It's a mystery. And all the energy committed to maintaining that global lie. I could have been a genius or something if I had access to my entire me.

bitty wrote:As for nemesis, (or karma), I can see how that has happened to a degree in my life. Do you think that it varies, to reflect the amount of hubris, and other behaviour, enacted, and their effects?

In my case it seems like it. It could be coincidence, or just a rationalization for an ordinary corrective process. (What I've been calling evil Zen, the bitter ironies I find myself facing.).

But, as a principle, it makes sense. "You reap what you sow." "Opposites attract." Whatever it is, I don't want any more of it.

In case others find this thread in the future, I'd like to mention I combined some thoughts from this thread and another into my making connections thread.

-- Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:05 am --

solstice1962 wrote:TTL - I've read that Codependents don't like compliments. Is that correct?

I don't know, what are your thoughts?

solstice1962 wrote:TTL - I've read that Codependents don't like compliments. Is that correct?

I have severe issues with co dependency and I despise compliments.

Akuma wrote:

bitty wrote:That sums up exactly what I've been saying since I joined this forum. I still don't really understand what drove me to hurt the person who loved and cared about me the most, and enjoy it. Perhaps it was, as I said in response to something that you'd written elsewhere, because she saw and loved me, flaws and all, and disliked those flaws.

Torturing someone else is the closest thing to being cared for.

Sorry, Akuma, but what do you mean?

bitty wrote:

Akuma wrote:

bitty wrote:That sums up exactly what I've been saying since I joined this forum. I still don't really understand what drove me to hurt the person who loved and cared about me the most, and enjoy it. Perhaps it was, as I said in response to something that you'd written elsewhere, because she saw and loved me, flaws and all, and disliked those flaws.

Torturing someone else is the closest thing to being cared for.

Sorry, Akuma, but what do you mean?

The way I interpret Akuma's comment (it will be interesting to see if I'm wrong) is through my oft-used mirror symbolism (myth):

I couldn't experience (and may not have been looking for) the kind of love she gave me (which I see now). I was looking for me. The less she tried to be me, the more I tortured her for not being me. Since she's the worst mirror I ever had (in the twisted, narcissistic sense: she didn't try to mirror me), I tortured her a lot. (In my mind, I thought I was helping her choose. I thought I was being the emotionally neutral person who takes their loss without making a big scene out of it.). I treated her the way my mother did, expecting her to be me. To learn from it the way I did.

I was loving (torturing) myself in the mirror. Living out my relationship to my mother.

That explains why I did get a strange satisfaction from it (in prior relationships especially) which always bothered me. Many things I could rationalize about the repeating circumstances. But, there was a degree of sadism (inappropriate affect) that made me know something was wrong with me. It's one of those things I say I "always knew" even though I tried to blot it out with the relentless, yet glib march to self-sufficiency.

Ok, so. If I were to channel that emotion the way I just did, Akuma's statement would be the most eloquent and concise way to say it.

Yup TTLs interpretation is rather close.
I abbreviated it in this way, because if I wanted to explain this in detail it'd probably take like an A4 page of text - have some sadist aspects too that I analyzed rather exhaustively in myself for preventive purposes.

Truth too late wrote:But, there was a degree of sadism (inappropriate affect) that made me know something was wrong with me.

Akuma wrote:have some sadist aspects too that I analyzed rather exhaustively in myself for preventive purposes.

So, was there a sort of 'inner smirk', as you taught other people a lesson? A sort of 'serves you right!' feeling underneath, for not reflecting back who you wanted to be? And you weren't really unconsciously punishing the other person for that, you were punishing yourselves?

If so, that's a step too far for me. I think that I possibly was punishing the other person for not liking my faults, but I don't think that I was punishing myself.

I may have completely misunderstood what you were saying, it's difficult for me to get my head around, sorry.