Dating - is it possible?

Im a 24 year old avoidant male. Like most avoidant males, I would absolutely love to have a girlfriend. Also, like most avoidant males, I am completely incapable of turning this desire into reality.

I do think I am somewhat lucky in that I lack a trait that is common to avoidants. Most avoidants have impossible standards. I have almost none. I am desperate and just want some kind of intimate interaction with a woman.

When I think about finding a girlfriend, I often imagine myself finding a girl who is also avoidant. I guess my logic is that a girl who has the same problems as me will be more understanding and willing to overlook them because she has the same problems herself.

In reality it seems that avoidant women are no more interested in avoidant guys than any other women are. I believe there are a few reasons for this. Women are not expected to approach guys or ask them out on dates or anything in our society. Men are supposed to do this job. The result seems to be that avoidant women need not settle for avoidant guys as long as they are not terribly physically unattractive because some guy will eventually do all of the scary stuff for them. They need only be in the right place at the right time. They never have to worry about approaching the male or trying to impress him with their social prowess.

However I occasioanally see posts from people claiming to be avoidant women who simply cannot get a date because of their extreme shyness. How common is this really?

Has anyone ever tried dating another avoidant? How did it work out?

I am conscious of the obvious problems that could arise when two avoidants attempt to date each other. Would both of them just sit there in awkward silence until it became unbeareably uncomfortable and they decided to call it off?

Still, I cannot help finding myself hopelessly attracted to women that seem especially shy, particularly when they are shy around men. As I said, I seem to believe strongly on some level that my chances with these women are much greater because they will understand and tolerate my silence as they are dealing with the same thing themselves. And yet my experience tells me that shy women are not in the same position as shy men. Perhaps avoidant women also tend to have impossibly high standards and that is why they seem to want nothing to do with avoidant men?

Are there avoidant woman who feel like if they could just find a guy with the same problems he might be willing to tolerate them and something could happen? Am I the only one that thinks that the idea of spending a date with a member of the opposite sex and saying next to nothing to one another and feeling very awkward doesn't sound all that bad? I mean both of the people involved would have to discuss it before hand and agree to try their hardest not to get discouraged by the awkward silence and just try to enjoy being close to eachother for a bit (which wouldn't be hard for me. I'm happier than a six year old on christmas morning if a girl happens to be within a foot or two of me, even if she is only there by circumstance and not because she wants to be by me, which is every time that a girl happens to be close to me).

I guess a good way to sum up what I'm saying is that I am very lonely, and if I could find a girl who is also very lonely, maybe we could be lonely together and thereby NOT be lonely anymore. Is this just a fantasy of mine that will never actually happen or is it feasible?

I'm definitely one of those avoidants with impossible standards. But while this has contributed to the times I've blown off, ignored, or pushed away those girls that have shown interest in me, I think it's more that I'm unable to express emotional feeling or interest, especially romantic or sexual feelings.

If I was ever on a date, I don't think I would have too much trouble conversing, as long as it was mostly impersonal, and not revealing of my personal feelings and desires, or of my own shortcomings that I find particularly embarrassing.

There are a lot of lonely people, including those in relationships. If you are able to express that you will really appreciate and value someone, I believe you will be able to have a relationship. But you have to express it. You can have wonderful traits, but if you hide, no one will know that. You may be very attractive, but no one will be able to be attracted to you if they can't see you.

I am starting to think that it's not possible. Like you said, being the male, we are expected to put everything in motion, but it's hard for me to even talk to women let alone ask them out. Even if I got that far who is to say they would like me anyway. I am so lonely that when I see a couple holding hands or hugging, my heart seems to physically ache. Women have told me I am not unattractive, but apparently some women think I am frightening because I never say anything and don't smile much .
So social norms and my supposedly scary demeanor have made dating pretty impossible for me.

I am kind of in between...... sometimes I have impossible standards
sometimes I don't have any......... (usually when I feel desperate)

in my opinion chances are it is more likely for us avdP people (male or female) to 'hook-up' with someone who is extroverted....

it just seems more logical to me... there has to be someone who approaches the other person..... and that will probably not be "us".....



that's if we ever do 'hook-up'

...... at all

Hi. I'm a 17 year old girl - almost 18 - and just from my PoV, dating has always been confusing and nearly impossible. I'm aware that I'm pretty young, and I can't say I have much experience with dating, but just to kind of give my opinion...
I don't know how it is for other girls, but personally, even when I'm approached by guys who claim that they're interested, I still manage to inevitably begin avoiding them.

There are several reasons for this -
1) I'm scared he might just be joking around in flirting with me, and that I'd look like an idiot if I responded.
2) I'm afraid that once he got to know me better, he'd get the common sense to start disliking me.
3) I start worrying that I might begin to bore him with my shyness.
4) Or my favorite: a guy starts up a conversation with me, I blush, excuse myself and then literally run away. Commence moping about the incident for weeks afterward, worrying about how silly I must've looked while running. Of all things.

I think I make it unnecessarily difficult because I lack the confidence to get a better grasp on the situation. My fears and self-doubts are always constantly on my mind, so no matter how I much I might want to connect with someone, I always end up pushing them away. It's my annoying tendency to doubt any act of kindness someone might display towards me, so I'm constantly blinded by my own self-consciousness.
(...I don't think I have any absurdly high standards for guys either, since all I'd want in a possible boyfriend is someone who would be reasonably nice to me. I don't really care for much else. :'P)

And although I'm not sure if an AvoidantxAvoidant relationship would be ideal... I personally wouldn't mind it. In fact, I think I'd appreciate it greatly. I agree with what you mentioned; if I knew that the other person shared many of my problems as well as my way of thinking, I'd probably feel much more comfortable around them. In that case, I might not even be that particularly quiet, and actually become pretty talkative if I were certain they'd like me. Plus, if I knew beforehand that the person was an avoidant -- even if the date was filled with awkward silences... I'd most likely be OK with it, since I'd be aware of the reason.

Y'know, if you don't mind me saying so, you seem like a sweet person, so I do hope you'll find someone. There are a lot of people out in the world, so chances are, you'll probably find someone who'll be able to understand. :')
That's my opinion, anyway, and it's what I try to remind myself of as well.

Oh... Um. And lastly, sorry for the long post. I'm new here and all nervous and stuff. D':

Raginmud:

I think if there was a girl who was obviously very socially uncomfortable/avoidant, who I knew was interested in dating but unable to keep the interest of guys who approach her because of her inability to participate in conversation with them, and, most importantly, who I knew was interested in/attracted to me, I think I just might be able to approach her. I would still be a scared, jittery mess and barely be able to say much of anything, but a lot of the fear would be relieved just by knowing that she is probably going to be far too concerned with what I think of her to be taking note of anything i do wrong - that and too excited by the fact that a guy is interested in her at all to notice or care about my mistakes.

I guess I might even say that what I'm looking for is a girl who has social problems that are as bad as or worse than mine. That way I would feel like the roles have been switched compared to the usual (rare) interaction I have with women who become temporarily attracted to me (Its always a very short-lived attraction, I'm talking minutes in the very best case scenario, and doesn't really happen anymore since I finished college). I always feel incredibly intimidated by a woman with far better developed social skills than mine, and the fact that if I can't at least match them that she'll drop me like a sack of rotten potatoes in an instant. This ideal avoidant girl in my head will be just like me in that she won't care if the potential date is a socially underdeveloped because she'll be ecstatic and develop an instant crush on me simply because I'm one of the very few guys that continued to be intersted in her after finding out that she is the way she is.

I tend to basically fall in love with any girl that shows me any kindness at all and mistakenly believe that she must be interested in me as well because she gave me some tiny compliment or whatever. I think that if I knew a girl felt this way about me - was just infatuated with me because I simply sat down next to her at the coffee shop or whatever and introduced myself - I would feel incredibly bold and empowered and could proceed to sweep her off her feet.

Of course, this will never happen. Avoidants tend not to show that they are attracted to somebody even if they are for fear of embarrasing themselves. It seems the ideal of the girl for me that I hold in my mind doesn't really exist in real life. Any woman who is single because of her avoidant personality disorder probably isn't single because she can't attract guys - I'm pretty sure there are plenty of guys out there who would persue women who are shy to the point of basically being unable to participate in any real conversation with the guy. Shyness isn't really unnatractive in women - its only unattractive in guys. I think the avoidant women who can't get dates are probably the ones who think they would like to have a date but are so afraid when the opportunity comes up that they run away or act rude to push the guy away (thus preventing any potential embarrassments/disappointments). Obviously I would be incredibly discouraged by this, as there would be no way to tell whether the girl was pushing me away because she was afraid or because she was simply not interested. And even if i could tell, its not like I can just force myself on her, grab her arm when she tries to run away and force her back into the seat or something.

This is why I can't help feeling pretty hopeless about my situation. And yet I still find myself looking forward to the day when I am going to meet this girl who almost certainly does not exist, which almost makes it worse because its always painful when my brain does one of those reality checks and I suddenly remember that I'm going to be alone forever.


Lycoris:

You're 17. Yeah, running away from a guy when he tries to talk to you isn't exactly normal, but social anxiety problems at your age (and ESPECIALLY involving the opposite sex) are not unusual. Also, as many people on these forums will tell you, by definition you can't have avoidant personality disorder if you're not an adult. I don't agree with this entirely as I've shown signs of avoidance my entire life (selective mutism in childhood - look it up if you've never heard of it, it might be relevant to you), but I do think there is one very good reason for this part of the definition of AvPD, and that is that social anxiety problems are normal in youth and many people will grow out of them by adulthood.

So you shouldn't worry too much (yet). If guys are approaching you, they're probably not going to stop anytime soon. I'm sure you'll start to get used to it and eventually warm up to the whole process.

I, on the other hand, have had next to no interaction with women for pretty much my entire life. This contributes to the problem in a way that I Think a lot of the people who write about AvPD, and the psychologists who work with patients that have it, are completely unaware of. Everything I read about AvPD presumes that that avoidant is 100% capable of interacting with other people in a completely normal way, but that their fear of social interaction is so overwhelming that they simply refuse to unleash their potential - and this is probably true with some. None of these people seem to take into account the fact that avoidants have spent their entire lives successfully avoiding social interaction, and that because they haven't experience any real social interaction, their brains have not developed to handle said social interactions. I would argue that there are probably physical differences in the way brains of regular people and avoidants develop because the differences in how they use their brains are so significant. My point is the general medical literature and understanding of AvPD is essentially calling us a bunch of wimps and failing to take into consideration the very important fact that our brains simply aren't wired like those of normal people - that its not just fear that stops us from socializing but a very real inability to understand how to do so in the first place.

Yep, I'm aware I can't be diagnosed with it just yet. That's why I'm hesitant to say, "Oh, I'm 100% sure I have AvP", because like with everything, I'm uncertain. Still, I've read a lot about it, and I'm pretty certain I have many of its traits, if not all. 'course, it's easy to try and relate to general symptoms, but... I think I do know myself better than anyone else.

Oh... Also, selective mutism? I've heard about that before, and I've just read up on it now, but I remember being able to speak when I was younger. However, all throughout kindergarten and 1st grade, I'd either whisper everything I said, or say my words in an extremely high-pitched voice. I was absolutely fine at home, but in school... Not quite so. I ended up straining my vocal chords, so I had to go and see an ENT! Afterwards, I was sent to speech therapy, which was not fun at all.

...Oops, um, sorry for trailing off like that. That's a really interesting idea, by the way, and it makes sense to me.
I might be more of an unusual case, and I don't know how much of this is relevant, but I've been home-schooled since the 7th grade. This has basically helped me avoid all of the social experiences of Jr. High and High School, and as a result, if someone asked me to strike up a conversation with another kid my age, I really wouldn't know how to.

What do they like? No idea. What do I like? Probably not what they do.

It's very confusing, since I just don't think I have the necessary experience to socialize like others can. I spent most of elementary alienating myself and hiding from others, and 7th-12th grade was (and is) being spent completely alone. So I just feel very ignorant about people, since I forcibly sheltered myself from them. I suppose I could try talking more, but quoting Hallmark cards will only get me so far in life.

Haha, sorry. It might look like I missed your point entirely with my input, but I think I do understand what you're saying. It's just that I couldn't think of a better way to respond to it, since I'm not too good with theories.

I hope I didn't come across as trying to marginalize your feelings because of your age. I just wanted to point out that you are not doomed. You still have time to improve yourself, and you have the very good fortune of being a girl with this problem rather than a guy, so the outlooks is relatively good. A guy just does not usually scrutinize the women he meets to see if they are "worthy" of dating him the way women seem scrutinize and screen their potential mates. At least I don't think most guys do, but maybe that's just me projecting my own lack of standards onto everyone else.

Basically I was trying to offer some encouragement. You really shouldn't be letting yourself go through any serious emotional turmoil over this just yet. Neither should you do what I did when I was your age and stick your fingers in your ears and say "Nah-nah-nah-nahhhhhh I can't year you!" to the problem until it has grown to big for you to get a handle on.

Oh, I also want to say that when I mentioned selective mutism, I was not trying to suggest that you in particular (lycoris) should look into it. Not that you shouldn't, either, but That was directed to anyone on the forum who might come across this thread. I bet a lot of AvPDs started out as selective mutes. I've read that cases of selective mutism that go untreated usually develop into serious long-term social problems in adulthood. Unfortunately most cases go untreated because next to nobody knows there is such a thing as selective mutism and the teachers (or whoever) that are dealing with the kids that suffer from it generally think the kids are refusing to talk on purpose to cause trouble, which usually results in discipline and reinforces the self-doubts that caused the problem in the first place.

Ooh, sorry - maybe I rambled a bit there...
Hm, I really wish I could understand how things are from your perspective, so I could come up with something more useful.

But seriously, thanks for all of the advice. You have been really encouraging, and I should've thanked you for it before.
Gosh, I'm sorry - it's your thread, and you've been way more helpful to me than I've been to you. Thank you for that, though - I appreciate it a lot.

...Hey, umm... Can I compliment you? :')
Haha, okay. This is probably going to be a bit out of nowhere, but I think you're a really nice person, and I like you. Can we keep in touch through PM's, and maybe talk about more trivial things?
I doubt I made a very good first impression, but if you don't mind talking to me, I'd really love to. *hopeful*