Why does loving an HPD feel so much more like the real thing

I'm glad to have found this forum.
First, the history. (I would appreciate any feedback if my experiences are like yours).
I met her about a year ago; within an hour of meeting, she was tearfully telling me of her break-up. She was/is so beautiful that my first thought was: Who would be so crazy as to break up with someone so perfect? Within weeks we were in a passionate relationship. For the first time in my life I felt as if I was really living, really in love. When not around her I would lie awake marveling at the miracle of this perfect woman's love for me.
Only drawbacks: A seemingly insatiable urge to talk about her exes combined with a remarkable shiftiness about when she had been with these guys. So not only was I forced to listen to constant references to X,Y and Z, I also was forbidden to ask any follow-up questions. Q: "So when was this, again?" A: "I don't know when! Who cares when!" I also noticed that she had an international network of male "just friends".
A few months ago I found out that since before our meeting, and routinely thereafter, she was doing partner-search postings on the internet, urging respondents to meet her asap for drinks, etc. Of course these email exchanges stopped with the exchange of numbers. When I confronted her on this, I was tearfully rebuked for "humiliating" her. Her story: Since we live in separate cities, she had been so lonely that she had met these guys to distract herself. But nothing ever happened, because the guys were all so boring. She had been perfectly loyal to me all that time, and (despite casual stories told early on in our relationship about how she'd hooked up with this or that guy after ten minutes) I was told how hard it is for her to become sexually intimate with anyone.
I half-believed this (don't laugh), but I had become much more critical and alert. Soon I found out that she had been inviting X, Y and Z to stay with her. They hadn't come, but still. Another blow-up between us; more tears. "I was inviting them because I knew they wouldn't come." Readers, I swallowed that too. Or at least, told myself I did. Meanwhile I was being punished for my suspicions by denial of sex. No sex now for the past four months. Or maybe (and more likely) she had lost interest in me sexually anyway, though I was always the go-to guy for financial crises. Sound familiar?
Then recently when I stayed at her place, she having made clear there would be no sex, I found condoms had materialized in her bedside table. Her excuse, after ten minutes of huffy silence, was too absurd for me to write down here.
It's been 3 weeks since I saw her. I get heart-melting texts, emails rebuking me for my lack of trust, when I'm the only one she has ever wanted, she has only wanted to love me, would settle down in a minute if I were only available 24/7. She is pining away for me it seems...only, she seems to be out every third night until the wee hours.
Am I still in love with her? Yes. And this is my question: if uncertainty is the essence of real passionate love, and certainty is the death of it, can one ever feel the same all-consuming passion for a non-HPD? I don't want to hear about how wonderful and comfy love with a non-HPD can be. I know all that. I'm talking real erotic passionate love here, sustained over months and years. As much as we complain about HPDs, aren't they giving us something no one else can?

Hi compton
Simply put, its not possible to sustain the sort of emotions you're talking about over more than a couple of years. We're designed to have that initially, and then move on or stay with the person and calm down.
I'm tempted to question your use of terms as well - is what you guys have really love? I'm sure she's not a bad person, but she's treating you terribly. Perhaps you should look at why you're willing to put up with this sort of behaviour in your life?
Alan

It's all an illusion, a con trick, and for her own selfish benefit only. Feels good though doesn't it? Until you realise it's all mirroring and manipulation - kind of takes the edge off it eh? You have been idealised, which is nice, if not a little creepy, until it all comes crashing down and you end up as wanted as something stuck to her shoe... IMO.

Hi,

Your story bears the usual marks of a relationship with an HPD and I wont dwell on the similarities, if you browse through the forum you will find that by yourself. What interests me is your stance on not wanting to know how nice, fulfilling and "normal" a relationship with a non-HPD is. I have exactly the same feeling, I have been seeing someone for a couple of months and went NC with my ex about a month ago. My new gf is the total opposite of an HPD, no drama, loving, caring and full of attentions. She took her time before getting into the relationship, it's all very mature. BUT...I keep feeling that big hole, something is missing and numerous talks with my therapist haven't help. My conclusion is, YES, they do give something that non HPD can't give (Sofrance, a contributor on this forum has mentioned it and she is right) and this is what we miss: excitement, fun and that sense of "epic love" (my x favorite's expression to describe our relationship).
I am not the first one to use the comparison but they are like a drug (I would say cocaine), when they give we are on a high, when they take away we are in withdrawal and like drugs, we know they are bad for us but we enjoy the buzz so much we want more. But ultimately, drugs ARE bad for us in the long run and they bring misery, financial headaches and alienates us from our close friends and family....just like a relationship with an HPD. And like HPD, it is an artificial paradise, unless you want to live in one you are better off without them. I wont recommend you to go and find a "nice girl", but to quote someone, remember that they are not good at love but experts at "in love". If you want to stay on the roller coaster because its fun do it but be prepared to puke your lunch some day.

Thanks for these replies, folks. I see the wisdom of what you say. And I hope that I actually start to feel the wisdom of it soon.
I get the drug analogy, though I can't imagine that even cocaine would be as fun (never tried it) as those first blissfully ignorant months with her.
But here's where the drug analogy kind of breaks down: for the past 6 months it's been nothing but horrible with her. With very few and brief intervals of not-horrible (but far from great). No sex since quite a few months ago. And I know there could never have been any return to that blissfully ignorant time. And yet still I can't help loving her. Other, nicer, better women seem so dull in comparison. The thing about an HPD I guess: you're never bored. Wouldn't it be better to be bored than to be constantly humiliated, and lied to, and played like a fool, and constantly suspicious, and doubting, and lying awake all night in jealousy, anguish? You'd think so, wouldn't you! And yet...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going back to her. (NC except for her emails and texts for a month now.) I'm not "co-dependent" enough to be able to put up with all that crap. But if I had to do it all over again, would I? If I could go back to being blissfully ignorant, and have those first few "epic" months, only to find out that she'd been hooking up like crazy on the side, would I do it? I have to say yes. If nothing else, that "honeymoon period" makes you realize just how good life and love can be. It's a fake goodness with an HPD, sure, but I'm going to try harder to find the real kind now. Whereas if I'd never met her, I would have been content with just wasting my life in a humdrum routine. I hope that makes sense.
So while I understand people who have a lot of rage and hate for "their" HPD, I have to say that I don't feel that way myself. It didn't go on long enough, or cost me enough (financially or emotionally), for me to really claim that I was done wrong on some huge scale. And after all, I wasn't exactly a passive victim. No one put a gun to my head and forced me to fall for her. I still love her, am (on balance) glad I met her - and glad I got out before I completely lost my mind.

Hi Guys, Just my 2 cents..I've now had 2 HPD relationships (lucky me) both relatively short lived but both leaving me like a zombie psych-wise. I do believe that there are certain people who will be that much more susceptible to the advances of an HP disordered person and will suffer greater pain afterwards when it's all gone south...From a male standpoint, what red blooded hetero male isn't going to be happy about meeting a gorgeous girl who appears to be crazy for him. We're all narcissistic enough to want to believe that WE have something special thats attracted this honey. Do we have good self esteem? Are our personal boundaries strong, for when the HPD comes on so strong, so fast? probably not....weak boundaries means you will let them in faster than ordinary common sense will allow (just like the vampires in Salems lot) Did you have a Cluster B (Narcissistic, Histrionic, Borderline) parent or primary carer? if you did then the HPD will represent more than just a potential love partner...This takes you right back to what psychologists call "attachment hunger"...you will be reliving old family dramas, but this time you are hoping to re-write the script and this time the ending will be a happy one and your attachment needs (which were probably not met by your cluster B carer) will be met...(no chance buster)...Were you from another type of dysfunctional family? A depressed parent? A disabled parent? An alcoholic or violent parent? Again you will be reliving these family dramas....A normal lover/partner will of course feel dull by comparison with the drama that comes with PD people...you may be addicted to the drama because of the family you grew up in.....To quote the British Poet Philip Larkin:

"They f*ck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f*cked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself

"excitement, fun and that sense of "epic love"

Whoever you are - you just summed it all up perfectly.

I initiated all 3 of the breakups I went through w/ my ex-HPD. At the time I did so, I was feeling overwhelmed, drained, and positively convinced that if I continued the relationship I would be left a former shell of myself (i.e. my self-confidence was running on sparks near the end) I loved her, but I was worn out, and I knew it. I thought of the future, and all I could see was a roller coaster full of tension and anxiety - I knew that I would never know peace if I didn't try to make a break.

And yet, a week shy of the last break up, I found myself missing her intensely, and for all those exact and concise reasons: "excitement, fun and that sense of "epic love"

Let's face it: HPDs can sell a dream. And they are exciting. The problem is, the excitement they provide is dysfunctional and ultimately harmful. If you consider your own situation, deep down you'll realize this.

I entered the relationship w/ my ex as a very confident guy. For reasons I won't bother you with, I have options when it comes to women. She knew this. I was very much in control of my life and enjoying it. I felt almost at peace. Then I began what was to be one of the most difficult and hurtful periods in my life to date. It got so bad, I was questioning my own mind, and constantly trying to rationalize everything to keep the relationship going - I found myself making her own arguments and justifying her behavior to keep us together. Should have been a sure sign to run, but I held on. Loved her, thought I was enough, thought we had made progress from the arguments about her behavior...

Truth is: in the rare moments we weren't arguing or alternatively put: "fighting for the relationship" - I was bored. In those sparse moments of 'peace', I had the space to internally yell at myself "wtf am I doing in this situation?! there is nothing really of substance or depth going on...is this the person I want to grow old with?!"

But the next day I distracted by another argument.

HPDs keep you on your toes. Intentionally or not, point remains. It's a warped sense of 'fun'.

Then you break away and try to get back to living again - but things feel too 'textbook'...too 'quiet'. In a sick sense you hate yourself for: you miss that roller coaster - you know you shouldn't - you know it's wrong - but still you wake up and go to sleep trying to stop your mind from running...

Well here is what I'm learning: when you deal w/ a HPD, you wind up investing a majority of your life - far more than you should - in a dire situation where you find yourself expending massive mental and emotional effort to control an uncontrollable situation. When you spin out of that hurricane, you are naturally disorientated. The big mistake I first made was my failure to recognize just how much of my own life I'd put aside to deal with another person's issues. When you give so much of yourself up for someone, waking up w/ what is left feels like a massive void, and for good reason: effectively, you've been living in another person's world, forsaking your own life in the process. The challenge is to get back to where you were before all the drama hit and continue that journey.

I'll be honest: in the two weeks following the break up, I was a mess: slept for hours, couldn't seem to stop thinking about the 'epic dream' that was whispered in my ears, all the strong declarations of love, regret seeping in, wondering 'what if', and thinking of how things would be different if I was just 'more secure'...but then I hit a point where I thought 'wtf' - I'm not even giving myself a chance to enjoy life without her like this - mopping around in misery and regret is only going to risk me going back to that. For now, it's time to give myself a shot and enjoying life again, and to do so, I need to 'force' myself back out there and get back to doing the things that made me happy before.

So that's where I'm now, and it's rapidly making a difference. Don't get caught by your own mind - it can be your own worst enemy.

Phew - done venting

Interesting, Rhodes. Those are the things I'm telling myself too.
And you're right, it really is such a change because you have been essentially living for the HPD. Suddenly your life is back, and you don't really know what to do with it.
I find that the best way to move on is to remind myself of what was going on behind my back -- even in our "honeymoon"period when I thought I had her full attention. It's still tough not to go back to her though. (I'm glad we are in different cities, because otherwise I don't think I would have the self-control to stay away.)
The feeling of life being very intensely lived to the max - intensely fun, intensely dramatic, even intensely bad and frightening during the bad times - I don't see that ever coming back again. Certainly not with a non-HPD.

madsad wrote:I am not the first one to use the comparison but they are like a drug (I would say cocaine), when they give we are on a high, when they take away we are in withdrawal and like drugs, we know they are bad for us but we enjoy the buzz so much we want more. But ultimately, drugs ARE bad for us in the long run and they bring misery, financial headaches and alienates us from our close friends and family....just like a relationship with an HPD. And like HPD, it is an artificial paradise, unless you want to live in one you are better off without them. I wont recommend you to go and find a "nice girl", but to quote someone, remember that they are not good at love but experts at "in love". If you want to stay on the roller coaster because its fun do it but be prepared to puke your lunch some day.

I think the drug analogy is closer than we think. Because when you are in a relationship with a disordered person your reward centres and brain chemistry do alter (according to research). I think it can take some time cold turkey before your perspective really changes and your brain returns to normal (well, that is if it does ever return to normal!).

Any kind of PD relationship is, by nature, erratic, unstable and disorientating. Theorists like Alice Miller have argued that this was also the nature of the PDs childhood:- caregivers were not predictable and nor were their responses, the world was a hostile and constantly shifting place and the child rarely knew where he or she was. It may seem strange then that they carry this 'chaos' with them into adulthood, but it makes sense if you consider that they have become experts at dealing with this - the more chaos in other words, the more they feel in control.

It is familiar to them - but not to us initially. We may notice that we feel something is 'off' or that we don't really know where we are or what to expect, but over time this becomes OUR norm too. We are in a constant state of anxiety/excitement and become accustomed to that state quite quickly as we assimilate the chaos. We also sleep less, eat less and generally get used to relying on our adrenaline to function at all. Our brain begins to demand the chaos in fact! It is then our natural state for a while.

In addition to this - our brains are also releasing steady and large amounts of dopamine in the early stages when the tosh about epic love is being bandied about. Dopamine is the neurotransmitter most often associated with opiates.

When the relationship ends (and this often takes months - if not years, of further chaos, by which time your brain chemistry is completely out of whack) it takes a fairly substantial period of time before we become accustomed to living without the daily adrenaline shot and the smoking of the dopamine pipe. So much so that when the drama doesn't come from them, we will manufacture it ourselves. The prospect of sitting still, reading a book, watching a film isn't even on the radar. WE NEED OUR DRUGS!

Slowly, slowly the brain returns to some kind of equilibrium (I would argue whether we ever return to our original state - I'm certainly not there yet). That's why NC is really so important:- not just emotionally and psychologically, but also, crucially, it allows our spinning minds to gain some chemical balance again. This is when we start to see things a lot more clearly and become more rational. And then we start to wonder what the hell happened because we have a really substantial hangover. And have just puked our lunch

Great thread - Normal & compton, I agree w/ what you both said. A lot of quality insight going on.

Despite all I have said I miss, I do not miss:

- Being kept on edge so much
- Being interrupted
- Being told what I felt
- Being played off to be the bad guy to her friends (and sources)
- Not being able to go for a drink with her without having that God awful and omnipresent anxiety of "here we go again: wonder what the hell she is going to do this time..."
- Living in a constant state of high alert
- Never being comfortable
- The vapid party scenes
- Mechanical, distant sex
- That aching, pervasive feeling of feeling 'trapped' in very bad situation
- Feeling like I was always on the outside
- The neverending power play

Yeah, there was a lot I don't miss. Relationships are supposed to be about mutual support - not constant warfare for control.