DID without amnesia?

tylas wrote:

tomboy24 wrote:Yes, DID can happen without amnesia.

I love your posts Tomboy, but no, you must have amnesia to have DID according to the DSM IV and the proposed DSM V. Researchers would like to change this criteria however because knowing if you have amnesia or not is tough, and often by the time we get into therapy we are co... and do not exhibit the amnesia in therapy.

It says:

Proposed revision: Recurrent gaps in the recall of everyday events, important personal information, and/or traumatic events that are inconsistent with ordinary forgetting.
Rationale: Noting that amnesia for everyday events is a common feature.

It's a common feature, not an absolute criterion. However, I couldn't see how many criteria you need to fill before the diagnosis is valid according to DSM-V. It also says that the amnesia (or memory gaps) may be located to several different aspects of your life. I don't see how it needs to be *real* amnesia according to this definition they use.

tomboy24 wrote:Since DID is a very personal disorder, there can be many variances between different peoples' DID. I rarely have full black-out amnesia, or "time loss". Usually what happens instead is that I get "locked" inside mentally. Sometimes I'll see a "wall", or I'll be in a "room". I'm aware that time is passing and that I'm not in control, but I'm unaware of how much time is passing, I don't always know who's in control, and I don't know what's going on "outside".

I also wonder what is exactly this "time loss" you are talking about. Doesn't everyone feel that they "lose time" from time to time and suddenly it has been several hours when you thought it has gone only few minutes? In your experience, does it feel like time "disappeared" somehow or like time "never existed" in that description you are giving?

Of course I cannot see or feel how other people perceive time, but I would say it requires a significant effort to stay focused in the present and notice the time. Most of the time I don't even know what day it really is or how far away yesterday is? And last week? Who can even remember that! Because it's not possible to feel the past, it will always be "blank" in some way. As I said, I don't know how people should perceive time, but is this kind of perception considered "time loss" or is it "normal" to feel this way? (Presuming that "normal" is a state that exists.)

"Time loss" concerning DID means there are periods of time you literally "black out" for. There's no memory there whatsoever. It's not like hours went by in minutes, it's more like you were knocked unconscious for those hours.

In what I experience with the wall or being stuck in a "room", I'm well aware that time is passing. I just don't know how much time (could be hours, could be minutes), and I don't know what is going on in the "outside" world- I don't have control over what my body's doing, I may or may not know who's in control of my body, I might feel "waves" of emotions from whoever's in control, but other than that, I don't know jack squat. It's a lot like being in the trunk of a car when there's someone else at the wheel. I know the car's moving, I know someone's driving it, I know that time is passing, but I don't know where they're driving, how they're driving, or how long they're driving for.

"Normally", with people without memory problems, they can remember yesterday, last week, early years of their life, etc. It might take some thinking, the memories might not be too clear, but they're there. If someone is a busy person, they might not have as good of a memory, but they should have some inkling of what happened. With people with DID, there's no inkling. There's just amnesia, "time loss", periods of time that you seem to completely "skip over".

With DDNOS-1, there's no full amnesia, but memories might be fuzzy or unclear, or they might only be emotional memories (where you remember you were mad or something, but that's about all you remember). There's no full-on, black-out "time loss", but there can be a lot of time distortion and memory difficulties.

Tylas: My apologies, and my mistake, then. Rain's actually been reading your sites and is informing me of the differences as I type (thanks a lot, Rain). With my recent realizations, perhaps I am DDNOS-1 instead of DID (not that it makes that big of a difference). But I do know that other alters lose time/don't know what's going on when another alter is out sometimes. So...do I have to have amnesia as the "host", or does it qualify when other alters have amnesia?

tomboy24 wrote:Tylas: My apologies, and my mistake, then. Rain's actually been reading your sites and is informing me of the differences as I type (thanks a lot, Rain). With my recent realizations, perhaps I am DDNOS-1 instead of DID (not that it makes that big of a difference). But I do know that other alters lose time/don't know what's going on when another alter is out sometimes. So...do I have to have amnesia as the "host", or does it qualify when other alters have amnesia?

Awesomeness! It is my goal to find the answers to all these questions that we ALL have to keep digging for. It helps me and it helps everyone else and that pleases me.

I watch CA go through all the same stuff I did, but she does not have someone to guide her as I do. It's interesting to watch - she will grow and learn.

With DID - just TWO alters (this is what makes them alters instead of lesser dissociated personality states) must not be aware when the other is out. Only DID has alters. DDNOS-1 has very dissociated states that think they are alters. Alters are cut off. They are or were alone at one time. They are or at least were compartmentalized.

Think of it as a continuum.

It begins with ASD or PTSD and complex PTSD... there is dissociation. DDNOS-1 has far more dissociation than PTSD. DID - is so dissociated that the parts are isolated.

Now consider that we all were suppose to integrate as kids. Those with ASD and PTSD did and they do not have alters. (one ANP and one EP) Those with DDNOS's did some integration, then the abuse began. (They have one ANP and 2 or more EP) The integration stopped. Tough spot to be in! Those with DID the abuse began so early that they never got to integrate at all. (They have at least 2 ANP and at least 2 EP) Make sense?

There are a differences between DDNOS-1 and DID. The DSM lists the minimum requirements needed to DX to diagnosis DID. The 2006 Dell study goes into much more detail than just the minimum.

Those requirement of the DSM 5, still left me with so many questions! Do I loose time? Do I have DDNOS or DID? (It did not confuse my T however!!!! - the confusion is with those of us that are ill informed. To him it makes such perfect sense!)

This would be an impossible DSM criteria for most to understand, but as I mentioned previously - those with DDNOS-1 do not make more ANP's. All people make more EP's. If they are not processed is the problem.

I would think DDNOS-1 is the more difficult disorder to live with, and my T agrees. The DDNOS-1 patients he has seen don't usually have the ability to be on a board like this or might be the ones that get angry and storm off. Those of us with DID simply make another host/ANP to handle what no other part of us can - we can leave too if attacked too much.

Keep in mind that knowing you have amnesia is hard, but at least some of the alters inside know. For instance - I hate vitamins, but I have a couple of somatic allergies - corn and milk, so I take vitamins and calcium. The problem is that it has been over a year since I have cared to take them. I pulled out the jar with them today and they are almost all gone. I asked if anyone else was taking them, and a caretaker manager from level 25 was. I am pleased. I know I need to take them, but I just can't. She watches me and makes sure I do a good job as host.

Point! I had no clue - even with the communication my system has, that I lost that time. I am not one to jump to conclusions. I need someone to verify this. Those inside know when I loose time better than anyone.

tomboy24 wrote:With DDNOS-1, there's no full amnesia, but memories might be fuzzy or unclear, or they might only be emotional memories (where you remember you were mad or something, but that's about all you remember). There's no full-on, black-out "time loss", but there can be a lot of time distortion and memory difficulties.

This fits me then since I don't experience black-outs in my everyday life but my memory distorted.

tylas wrote:Those requirement of the DSM 5, still left me with so many questions! Do I loose time? Do I have DDNOS or DID? (It did not confuse my T however!!!! - the confusion is with those of us that are ill informed. To him it makes such perfect sense!)

When you consider DSM-V or DSM-IV, which is pretty much so outdated that it has no value anymore in my opinion. Remember that it is not the official diagnostic manual (yes, I know it's supposed to be the official one). Doctors cannot make their diagnosis solely based on DSM even though that should be the point of those guidelines.It's usually wise to take the main concepts from DSM, but then use other medical knowledge to actually diagnose the conditions.

ChistaAngel: Definitely look further into the possibility of DDNOS-1 for you, then. I know that I'm having to question whether or not I have DID or DDNOS-1 now that Rain's updated her research/knowledge.

Tylas: Ah, ok. That makes sense, but also raises more questions for me.
*Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, I don't mean to, and if anyone wants me to stop, just tell me.

I basically remember everything, even if it is extremely fuzzy, unclear on details, or it's only the environment plus "emotional waves", but I have realized that overall, I do remember pretty much all of my life. (Now, whether this is due to all of us "filling in the blanks" for each other or because I never really fully leave being in "the background" at least, I don't know yet). I told myself that I lost time, especially with alters like "Hannibal" and Rebel, because I hated watching stuff happen outside of my control. I hated knowing- I didn't want to know, so I convinced myself that I didn't know.

So, we've come to the conclusion that I never really lose time like I thought I did. But I do know that some of my alters, especially the "Secondary Group" ones, don't remember what happened when someone else was in control. Like, if Kat's out, Damone's not going to know jack squat about anything that happened while she was out (unless they were co-hosting, which doesn't really happen between the Main Group alters and the Secondary Group). Kat might help him fill in the blanks, and we might "share" memories to help each other out, but help is needed.

There's also a theory going around with the appearance of Shay. Because of Shay's communication tactics through songs/song lyrics, we thought she was a radio, so we had an image of a radio in our "inner world" where Shay actually was. Well, now we know that it wasn't a radio after all, it was an alter that we now know as Shay. However, the radio image has very possibly always been there, as we've been realizing, and it's always been there throughout every switch, just always in the background, but not so far in the background to where the "radio" couldn't be aware of what was going on in the "outside" world. So now there's a theory that I might lose time, maybe not like I originally thought but I might lose time, but now that Shay's appearance is known, we now have "access" to her memory, and so blank spots get filled in automatically.
It's kinda like...Shay's memory is the "master reel". It's got no breaks, no false memory implants, no static or fuzzy spots, etc. It's like if she was a security camera- with her always being in the background, she always knew what was going on despite not being in our awareness or not being able to communicate well. Lately, we've been comparing memories to Shay's memory. Picture a room with like a bunch of different TV screens playing through a bunch of slightly different "films" of alters' memories (including mine), and these are all compared to Shay's "film" of our life. We've been realizing small details we didn't notice before, taking notes on what actually happened and what didn't, stuff like that. But for the most part, it seems to line up with my memory (except my "film" has fuzzy parts and some static, Shay's doesn't seem to have that yet).

ANYWAY, there was a point to all of this. My "main" trauma in my life didn't happen until I was 10 yrs old, and the abuse didn't start until I was 11 yrs old. Granted, my life before I was 10 wasn't exactly all sunshine and daises, nor was it always "normal", and probably wasn't always the "healthiest" family setting, but there was no true abuse, especially none directed at me. Some trauma caused by violent actions of an alcoholic father (never violent physically with me or my mom, and never violent towards us, though it could've been perceived that way many times), perhaps, but not actual abuse.

So I guess my question is, is DID possible that "late" in a child's life?

I've heard Kat's voice all my life, so I'm pretty sure I was close to splitting, if not already split, before I was 10 yrs old (though originally, Kat was viewed as an imaginary friend/"sister", since that made sense when I was a kid). Rain puts it this way: I/Cassie (since she's the original core) was like a paper, ripped in half/halves, then after the trauma at 10 yrs old, the paper ripped all the way. So I guess she's saying I was already kinda half-split, and I could've probably recovered and been "whole" had things not gone the way they did. But the trauma at 10 yrs old finished the splits and caused separation, I guess.

So another question: Is is possible to have DDNOS/DDNOS-1 and then have something happens that escalates it into DID? Rain's always using the glass metaphor, so like, is it possible to have a child who's cracked like glass, then have something break that glass into different pieces? I always thought it was, but perhaps I'm wrong. It just seems logical to me that if a brain already is used to using dissociation tactics for survival, a full split isn't that far-fetched for it to do if it's already cracked and feels it "needs" to break into different pieces.

As a side note: I think I'm an Apparently Normal Part as a host. Rain is another ANP I think, but not a host (though I'm sure she could be if she needed to be). I think Marie is also another ANP, but her accent would raise questions with people who know me, so I think that's why she's not a host. Valera could also be another ANP, but I'm not sure. Kat's like a weird mixture of an ANP and an EP. Aside from her temper/anger, I bet she'd make a better host than me, and she's always handling stuff that I or others can't handle. Kyra could be another ANP, but I don't know enough about her to be sure, and I don't know if living in your own reality while "inside" is a very ANP thing to do (though she does go about life "normally" in her own reality it seems).

tomboy24 wrote:So another question: Is is possible to have DDNOS/DDNOS-1 and then have something happens that escalates it into DID? Rain's always using the glass metaphor, so like, is it possible to have a child who's cracked like glass, then have something break that glass into different pieces? I always thought it was, but perhaps I'm wrong. It just seems logical to me that if a brain already is used to using dissociation tactics for survival, a full split isn't that far-fetched for it to do if it's already cracked and feels it "needs" to break into different pieces.

Interesting thought. I'll think about it and compare it to the genetic theory Tylas indirectly proposed in a separate thread.
I guess it depends how DID is actually developed. If the amnesia aspect is the most important criterion, then it seems rational to support your view of "breaking the glass". Could you elaborate your theory of why the glass cannot be shattered? It couldn't find your arguments for it in your post.

I've had very little amnesia since I was age 10, a couple minutes a year at most and none anymore. I have DID because at one point the more "classic" attributes of DID occurred for me, including lost time. I have quite distinct alters with their own names and have been diagnosed with DID, as in no question this is DID. In my case, the environment from birth to age 10 was sometimes abusive and unsafe, where the environment after age 10 was not, at least to an extreme. Amnesia is one of the many pointers to DID but is not or should not be considered necessary to diagnose DID after a certain point in time. All indications are that my mind utilized dissociation as a coping mechanism and developed along compartmentalized (alters) rather than more integrated lines. So even when the environment was safer, my response to the world was through segmented parts.

It doesn't seem to me that any one single trauma necessarily creates or launches irreversible DID. The most horrible things can happen in a child's life and, with loving support and a safe environment, they can reverse the damage to the point where it no longer retains power but exists as a memory like anything else. An environment that does not allow a child to heal from abuse or neglect or trauma or some combination of these is what causes DID to develop and dissociation to become a primary coping mechanism. I can see how neglect itself could cause DID to develop over time because it wasn't so much the abuse but the inability to process or heal from the abuse, which was a form of parental neglect, that prevented a more normal mind from developing.

ChristaAngel wrote:Interesting thought. I'll think about it and compare it to the genetic theory Tylas indirectly proposed in a separate thread.
I guess it depends how DID is actually developed. If the amnesia aspect is the most important criterion, then it seems rational to support your view of "breaking the glass". Could you elaborate your theory of why the glass cannot be shattered? It couldn't find your arguments for it in your post.

I didn't really think I said that the glass couldn't be shattered. Nor did I think I stated a theory about the glass not being able to shatter. If anything, I thought I said a theory on how glass can shatter in different ways.
If the glass isn't shattered, to me that symbolizes someone "whole", a "singleton", someone who does not have DDNOS, DDNOS-1, or DID (or, really, any dissociative disorder).
To me, cracked glass symbolizes DDNOS/DDNOS-1 (and possibly any other dissociative disorder), but of course, it depends on how "cracked" the glass is.
Slightly broken glass with a few pieces missing can also symbolize DDNOS-1 for me, as there are dissociative states, and EP alters, but no amnesia and no full-blown splits/DID.
Broken glass symbolizes DID to me because of the different pieces there would be left from it shattering. There could be a few big pieces, there could be several thousand little pieces, but it all symbolizes the fact that the glass is not whole.

I'm not sure what "arguments" I should have presented, nor do I usually present arguments unless I think that they're needed (like if I'm trying to convince someone of something, or if I'm debating something, stuff like that). If I'm simply stating an opinion, a metaphor, a question, or something like that, I don't really see the need to back it up with "arguments" unless asked to or unless the situation calls for it. Even theories, though I doubt I always know when I'm presenting one. Yeah, I know that theories usually call to be "backed up" by something, but I don't usually see the need to do that since I view it as being similar to an opinion. "This is my theory of how this happens, this is my opinion of how this happens". And I usually don't see the need to "back up" opinions unless I'm in a serious discussion where it's expected, a debate with someone, I'm trying to prove to someone that I'm right, etc.

As far as the whole amnesia criteria, I understand there's guidelines and stuff for diagnosing people, but I've always viewed them as just that- guidelines. It's not like everyone with a type of schizophrenia matches all the symptoms that a person with the disorder "should" have. It's not like everyone has the same symptoms even though they might have the same cold, or the same allergy to something. Yes, diagnoses should be precise, careful, and as closely matched as possible, but if someone doesn't have one symptom, I don't see how that should mean they don't have that condition/disorder if they match (most) of the other symptoms.
I can see it's usefulness in drawing the line between DDNOS-1 and DID, but if someone matches DID and they don't have amnesia, I'd say they have DID, not DDNOS-1. Having amnesia doesn't dictate other symptoms/criteria, such as having more than one ANP, or having actual, separated alters. My thinking is, if you "fit" DID symptoms/criteria more than you "fit" DDNOS-1, yet don't have amnesia, why should you be diagnosed with DDNOS-1 when you only have one symptom from it? But then again, that's just me and what makes sense to me.

ChristaAngel wrote:When you consider DSM-V or DSM-IV, which is pretty much so outdated that it has no value anymore in my opinion. Remember that it is not the official diagnostic manual (yes, I know it's supposed to be the official one). Doctors cannot make their diagnosis solely based on DSM even though that should be the point of those guidelines.It's usually wise to take the main concepts from DSM, but then use other medical knowledge to actually diagnose the conditions.

Yes, I agree the DSM IV is a project of the past. I have read the papers by the study groups that report to the DMS-5.

This might help. My T (therapist) says when I ask how he gives a DXX: I watch and note their movements, what they say, what they do, then I rule out what the DXX is not. What is left is the DXX.