Schizotypal Narcissism

I would like to hear opnions about the relationship between schizotypy and narcissism. There was a thread Narcissism and Schizophrenia at NPD forum.

I will not extend on resources right now, but I see many relations. O-LIFE impulsivy noncormity scale looks like narcissism. Harry Guntrip says that narcissism is a feature of schizoid PD. Freud himself wrote his paper On Narcissism dealing with megalomania at paranoid schizophrenia. Kernberg maybe the most famous psychodynamic author on narcissism linkened narcissistic PD with a borderline phenomena(between neurosis and psychosis).

And a resource I liked very much was this.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632282/
Values in Persons With Schizophrenia
"The schizophrenic value system conveys an overall crisis of common sense. The outcome of this has been designated as antagonomia and idionomia. Antagonomia reflects the choice to take an eccentric stand in the face of commonly shared assumptions and the here and now “other.” Idionomia reflects the feeling of the radical uniqueness and exceptionality of one's being with respect to common sense and the other human beings. This sentiment of radical exceptionality is felt as a “gift,” often in view of an eschatological mission or a vocation to a superior, novel, metaphysical understanding of the world.
...
It was Kretschmer who led the way to a naturalistic description of the connections between the unsociability of schizoid and schizophrenic persons, their abnormal mix of emotions, and their structure of values. Among schizoid and schizophrenic people, there are “quiet enthusiasts” who, in their flight from humanity, extravagantly pour out all the sensitive tenderness of which they are capable over the beautiful still objects of nature or the dead contents of a collection of books. Others, the “sulky eccentrics,” are prophets or inventors who brood “in a locked, ill-ventilated dungeon” over their own metaphysical trains of thoughts. Other schizoid or schizophrenic persons cultivate an aristocratic etiquette and impersonal formalities in their need for distance and their “wish that things were otherwise and better.” Many of these people indulge in endless self-analyses concerning psychological and ethical questions; their worldview often develops out of a sharp metaphysical antithesis between “I” and “the external world.” Their cramping reflections concern objectivity, rectitude, fidelity, nobility, and purity.
"

Another point that I ask myself is my disregard with physical appearence. Narcissists are close to histrionics and may be obsessed with it, but the disregard seens like even more narcissistic stance, like "I dont care what you think of me" or "I dont need my looks". That "I dont care what you think of me" applies to other things besides appearence.

Now two simple question.

Do you think you are narcissistic?

Do you think some personality disorders like narcissitic or borderline PD, may be milder versions of schizotypal disorder?

Any further resources are welcomed.

Do you think some personality disorders like narcissitic or borderline PD, may be milder versions of schizotypal disorder?
I'm not really schizotypal but IMO: Let's say that there's one that shows NPD traits may be the way he is because of his belief system . He may have the belief that the world is a reflection of what's happening within himself so he may appears to be more self focused that a person with a "normal belief system"

The passage you quote from the article's really shines a clear light on it.

The schizophrenic value system conveys an overall crisis of common sense.

I resent that remark! I know it definitely looks that way to other people though; people always say that when I would do something in a way they didn't like. Especially when I'm having trouble focusing, I'll do things that aren't very sensible, but then it's usually because I'm drifting through a task with whatever tools I have at hand instead of actively trying to work smarter.

Antagonomia reflects the choice to take an eccentric stand in the face of commonly shared assumptions and the here and now “other.”

Check.

Idionomia reflects the feeling of the radical uniqueness and exceptionality of one's being with respect to common sense and the other human beings. This sentiment of radical exceptionality is felt as a “gift,” often in view of an eschatological mission or a vocation to a superior, novel, metaphysical understanding of the world.

Check.

Among schizoid and schizophrenic people, there are “quiet enthusiasts” who, in their flight from humanity, extravagantly pour out all the sensitive tenderness of which they are capable over the beautiful still objects of nature or the dead contents of a collection of books.

What's this Kretschmer guy got against hippies and scholars? More seriously, I've actually heard this profile before, that many schizoid and schizotypal people show an intense preference for the company of plants, animals, and/or books over people. Thoreau is always the archetype of this in my mind.

Others, the “sulky eccentrics,” are prophets or inventors who brood “in a locked, ill-ventilated dungeon” over their own metaphysical trains of thoughts.

The artist in his garret, plotting new systems and values... has this guy been spying on me? @.@

Other schizoid or schizophrenic persons cultivate an aristocratic etiquette and impersonal formalities in their need for distance and their “wish that things were otherwise and better.” Many of these people indulge in endless self-analyses concerning psychological and ethical questions; their worldview often develops out of a sharp metaphysical antithesis between “I” and “the external world.” Their cramping reflections concern objectivity, rectitude, fidelity, nobility, and purity.

Now this is interesting to me because I haven't really heard this before, but it's definitely something I used to do (and still do to a lesser extent). I can also see firsthand how that preference for refinement over vulgarity is related to distancing myself from most of the human world. However, this is one of those things where I have to ask, "Just because it comes with the schizoid mindset, as long as it's not too compulsive or rigid, is it always a bad thing?"

creative_nothing wrote:Do you think you are narcissistic?

Depends on what you mean. I don't feel I'm particularly in love with myself, and I don't put myself before others. I definitely don't crave validation either. At the same time, I do have a grandiose self-image and think of myself as above most other people in some ways. I might also have some of the "hollow" ego that I've read is at the core of modern narcissism.

I don't remember where I saw it (maybe on this forum), but I remember reading someone pointing out that in the original myth, Narcissus technically looks more schizoid than narcissistic (in the contemporary sense). Instead of craving validation from others and running himself ragged to find it, he actually pushes away Echo and loses himself entirely in his own world.

creative_nothing wrote:Do you think some personality disorders like narcissitic or borderline PD, may be milder versions of schizotypal disorder?

I'm sure there can be overlap, but I highly doubt that any one is actually a subtype of the others. I think they all have slightly different issues at the core of them. Schizotypy tends to require an underlying cognitive style, borderline revolves around certain internalized ideas of relationships, and narcissism comes from severely repressing any parts of the self that evoke shame.

I'm guessing that full-blown narcissism tends to be the odd one out though. It's not that hard to imagine how the social ideas of borderline and the roundabout thinking of schizotypy could feed off of each other. Seems like it would be much harder for the steady denial of narcissism to survive the constant shaking the ego goes through in borderline. I also remember reading (and I see this in myself) that often schizoid/schizotypy comes with the complete demolition of many defense mechanisms. That doesn't mean it never happens though.

creative_nothing wrote:Do you think you are narcissistic?

Depends on what you mean. I don't feel I'm particularly in love with myself, and I don't put myself before others. I definitely don't crave validation either. At the same time, I do have a grandiose self-image and think of myself as above most other people in some ways. I might also have some of the "hollow" ego that I've read is at the core of modern narcissism.

But that grandiosity I am talking about. Indeed NPD is marked also by lack of empathy and excessive self importance. Psycopaths are also narcissists but do have some empathy and dont see themselves as important either.

Schizotypal Ideas of reference may look like paranoid and narc self importance but I dont think its rooted on that.

Some would say that psycopathy is extreme narcissism, and I ve heard the same about paranoids. So why not schizotypal narcissism?

Of course compared to psycopaths, there are some big differences. We are bluntely honest, dont wear a mask of sanity, we do have remorse and we are extremely self-counciouss.

Nevertheless for a good time before having the diagnosis I saw myself as very narcissistic.

What do you mean by hollow ego?

creative_nothing wrote:But that grandiosity I am talking about. Indeed NPD is marked also by lack of empathy and excessive self importance. Psycopaths are also narcissists but do have some empathy and dont see themselves as important either.

Off the cuff, I'd hypothesize that schizotypes, narcissists, and psychopaths usually have some form of inflated ego, but all in different ways. Schizotypes have a subjective reality that gives them a truly different relationship with nature, the universe, the mind, plants & animals, desklamps, etc. The richness and strangeness of that experience will definitely go to someone's head at least a bit. Narcissists on the other hand concentrate on a socially elevated self-image.

So while schizotypes essentially build up their ego around practically everything but people, narcissists tend to shore up the ego almost entirely through social terms. And even if sociopaths don't see themselves as particularly elevated, maybe they have a low opinion of other human beings so there's still a relative difference.

creative_nothing wrote:Of course compared to psycopaths, there are some big differences. We are bluntely honest, dont wear a mask of sanity, we do have remorse and we are extremely self-counciouss.

This is interesting because over the years, I've gotten pretty good at wearing a mask, apparently even better than I realize most of the time (there are thespians and salesmen in my family so maybe it's a bit inherited). I don't enjoy doing it though, and after a while, I can't keep it up so I withdraw from everything.

When I am in that play-acting mode though, I'm almost never blunt (I don't lie but I'm very good at steering conversations away from where I don't want them to go). I'm not particularly self-conscious either, and I really don't feel remorse or sympathy for others, though it's still there cognitively. I'm pretty sure it's just due to my alienation from mankind. If you put me in a relaxed environment with a pet, or a couple people I feel sincerely close to, my sympatico comes rushing back.

creative_nothing wrote:What do you mean by hollow ego?

I'm not much of a Freudian, but I think the subconscious is a very real world with a lot of answers hiding in it. I was referring to the ego in the sense of an active, aware notion of self, and by hollow, I meant that core parts of that ego have been broken off and submerged in the subconscious. I could be misunderstanding what I've read, but narcissism is closely related to pushing negative memories and feelings about oneself out of the conscious mind. Until a narcissist finally confronts and processes those experiences, there is a blindspot in the ego where there should be a healthy ability to recognize and learn from criticism and feelings of inadequacy.

I also have thoughts and memories that hurt my pride, and I am somewhat detached from them, though I haven't blocked them out. Mine center on rejection and persecution too, not shame in the sense of doing something wrong. Maybe that's where the paranoid thinking comes from? Instead of seeking to fill that lacuna with positive social attention, I learned to intellectualize it and come up with theories for why it happened.

I often contemplate the relationship between personality disorders. The one common denominator amongst them would appear to be the variety of maladaptive ways in which one relates to others, both on an individual and collective level. This maladaptive "relating" at their core is manifest in accordance with an individual's 'individual differences', both genetically and in terms of the interplay between genes, environmental conditions growing up and later experiences in adolesence/young adulthood.

As conditions marked by difficulty relating to others, the ego is central to each, and pathological narcissism being an "egomania" it makes sense that they all should feature a degree of narcissism. Narcissism, I would argue, that is a byproduct of and expressed in a way congruent with every particular PD.

Schizoid and schizotypal for example seem to be either end of a spectrum, one of autism-schizophrenia, respectively. Hence schizoids and schizotypals are simultaneously predisposed to autism and schizophrenia, with one or the other typically (but not always) predominating.

Narcissist, borderline and histrionic may be incremental failures of the realisation of a psychopathic defense, owing to differing levels of affective instability. The fragile narcissistic ego requires validation of its superiority, the fragile borderline ego requires validation of its lovability; this explains the latter's capacity for empathy. Histrionic is the least stable and will in desperation take all forms of attention that can be solicited. I also think that borderline bridges the gap between the other two and schizoid/schizotypal, owing to the transient dissociative and psychotic states that can occur.

The psychopath may rage, but unlike the rage of N/B/H it is not one secondary to feelings following from a lack of validation. You cannot be validated by mere objects, their purpose can be instrumental only. The psychopath's rage is a pure one, provoked by obstruction of and interference in the attainment of whatsoever he should desire.

They mean a different kind of narcissism as in NPD.
What they mean is some form of autistic love, so it is a sexual thing. You could call it autoerotism.
That is what Freud and Meehl were talking about, and probably everybody in the psychoanalyst field.
But then again, it is wrong and comes from the belief of Freud that everything is dictated by the eros.
So in that world view, autoeroticism can ONLY be caused by self-love, so narcissism.

Now, as Jung pointed out, some people, the introverts, are more driven by the thanatos, than by eros. In that case, the outside world is rejected because it is considered bad or incomprehensible, not because there is something better in the self, which is implied in narcissism.

So it is wrong on two points. First you can't be driven by love if you don't enjoy pleasurable activities, so there is a contradiction in the conceptual structure if you add in narcissism.
Second, like Muaddib pointed out, narcissism is essentially social and involves a comparison with others, whether by aggrandizing the self or diminishing others. So it is in contradiction with many other things that constitutes the schizotype, like social avoidance, lack of care for criticism, and a general autistic thinking.

So for those two reasons, I think the word is simply improper and gives the wrong impression. In fact, I would say that it seems like the projection of an extrovert on an introvert and has nothing to do with the internal world of the victim.

I could agree with some sort of introverted narcissism, but like I said, it seems contradictory on at least two levels. I do think it is possible to have some sort of grandiose sense of self that is totally separate from reality and that would be compatible with a schizotype construct, but it would crumble pretty fast in face of the evidence. On the contrary, the NPD delusional grandiosity is something that resists reality and works as if it was real. It is an image the person tries to sell to others, not a private or semi-private fantasy like it would be for an introvert. In the first case, the person would be partly detached from the delusion and it would be a temporary thing, while in the second, it is strongly attached to the self, and the individual cannot function without it and the world around them would crumble if it was not held fast. In the first case, it is devoid of relationships, while in the second, it is the foundation of all the relationships. So the similarity is only apparent, the functionality is totally different.

@OneRinger

Yes by what you say what Freud meant by narcissism was more introversion. About Meehl, I need to read more. But what about Kohut, Kernberg and other more modern authors?

About introversion I tend to follow Eyesenk model, although I dont think it is completely incompatible with what you said?

The introvert brain has a,different arousal level, while the extrovert constantly needs stimulation to keep arousal level, the introvert needs much less stimulus. However it could be that the brain develops in this way because of fear of stimulus, making the two theories compatible.

creative_nothing wrote:@OneRinger

Yes by what you say what Freud meant by narcissism was more introversion. About Meehl, I need to read more. But what about Kohut, Kernberg and other more modern authors?

I never read those people, so I don't know.

For introversion, I follow Jung and his definition, since he is the one that coined the terms, and he never talked about arousal, although I suppose if you take that into account, I would expect the introvert to dislike being aroused, not just be less sensitive to it. See, the eros goes towards the object of desire, the thanatos goes away from it, generally speaking, or course.

In the case of StPD, it is what Meehl called social aversion. It is more than just being neutral or bored towards it. It is actively against the social. There is ambivalence in it, or course, because you have an object of desire and you avoid it, so it is in a sense contradictory, and the reason why the person acts like that is unclear, but I think it is a lack of serotonine, which makes the person believe things are scarce and should be saved instead of used, so it is a sort of stingyness. Anyway, that is my theory about that introversion thing.

Actually, he put a first aversion drift that is essentially genetic, which leads to different possible outcomes: anhedonia, ambivalence or fear. If it is anhedonia, there is a second aversive drift due to cognitive slippage. But all roads lead to Rome, and it ends up in inappropriate social behavior.

I been thinking if cluster B counterpart of StPD is not histrionic instead of NPD.

I'll list some symptons of HPD and how it look likes StPD. S Vaknin theorized that when a narc lacks narcissistic supply he become an schizoid, but according to Millon a paranoid.

Egocentrism.
Is it a kind of mild idea of reference? Again Narcs in theory arent particulary egocentrical.

Being the center of attention.
Again ideas of reference, in this case histrionics seek it, and schizotypal run from it, but nevertheless I see similarities. Maybe that is because lacking attention is being ACTIVELY ignored

Tendency to believe relationships are more intimate than they actually are.
Same. Millon on spliting StPD/PPD, actually says that schizotypals think that they have influence on other people.

Manipulativeness.
Same. Probrably the difference is that histrionics are sucessful on that.

has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
It seens that these two PDs has speech disorder. One is impressionistic and other metaphorical.

Self-transcendence.
a personality trait associated with experiencing spiritual ideas[1] such as considering oneself an integral part of the universe. Schizotypals are definitly high on that. What about histrionics?

Schizotypal Egomania.
Many say that schizotypals is egomaniacal in the sense that we tend to believe in things that are exciting instead of what things that are logical. This now sounds also extremely histrionic.

Pride of own personality and unwillingness to change, viewing any change as a threat
Isnt that a factory for odd behaviour and beliefs?

Seductiveness.
This I still dont get, but all researchs point that positive schizotypy make you sexually desirable,
and get a variety of sexual partners.

I could think of more examples.

And yes, I ve seen two authors comparing StPD with HPD. Both said that HPD resembled StPD very much, but lacked in details.

Maybe the true difference is that histrionics see attention as positive, like care and schizotypals as negative like intrusion?