Schizotypal Narcissism

I don't think schizophrenics are inherently narcissistic. Not like Cluster B disorders, at least.

I think schizophrenic grandiosity stems from something else. Bipolars have feelings of grandiosity, too.
As do cocaine users. This might be linked to excess neurotransmitters. Dopamine/noradrenaline? Who knows. They make you feel invincible, you think faster and you go further than most people would deem healthy or reasonable, while high on these neurotransmitters.

Also, some schizos might have great abilities and take everything just a bit too literally and mechanically. I think this fuels their rigidity and arrogance that might come off as narcissism. Not to mention their genuine lack of affect and difficulty relating to others. Again, this is different from NPD. NPDs are more aware and malicious. Think of the NPD/BPD/HPD as someone who is vampirizing others.

The schizophrenic is not focused on his relationship with OTHERS, he is in his own track. He doesn't need to exercise a relationship with someone to assert his grandiosity or make people believe in it. And also, the NPD is aware of it. of how unreal it is. Schizos arent. NPD/BPD/HPD are just selfish and they don't really believe in themselves. They might never deny a lie, but it is not a firm belief within the individual. He can tell lie from truth. And thy're usually extremely insecure and a lot of their behavior is COMPENSATORY. Though the absurd selfishness is there, it's not an "innocent" one like in schizos and bipolars. it's antagonistic. Antagonistic to it's core.

But NPD and schizo disorders will have a lot in common, and superficially might seem the same. Also, individuals might overlap the disorders, even if in a transient manner.



But no doubt, CN, schizos and autistic individuals are tough to deal with. They're stubborn, they're hyperfocused and when not in touch with reality, they simply refuse to believe the truth and go on various different grandious manifestations on their persona. The classic "I am Napoleon Bonaparte" figure on the old mental hospitals is very real. Schizos do feel grandiose sometimes, specially when psychotic. Even if they aren't, the negative symptoms related stuff makes them quite rigid in their thinking styles and how they deal with other people. Schizos are usually quite difficult to relate with.

In a world where A = C, if a schizo decides A = B, no force on Earth will change his mind unless presented with several very precise evidences and pray for his mind to accept it. And if he is losing touch with reality? Lol, self explanatory.

Dopamine whackiness makes a person quite intelligent (for some individuals), but also makes them quite rigid on the way they think and too convinced their minds is correct just because, in their minds, it feels and seems completely, perfectly pinned down.

ADHD people are usually a pit of creativity because their minds make too many free associations. But they have a hard time expressing it because of lack of focus. The schizophrenic mind tends to be the opposite.

Do you think some personality disorders like narcissitic or borderline PD, may be milder versions of schizotypal disorder?

I don't even know how this conclusion could be made, really. BPD isn't milder than schizotypal in pretty much every respect, for example. NPD ditto. They're fairly distinct and come from very distinct ideology, perception, etc.

As for how narcissitc schizotypal personality disorder may be, is it really narcissism to have a rift between one's perception of the world and the actual world? Wouldn't that make anything even vaguely delusional be narcissism?

SoullessSingularity wrote:

Do you think some personality disorders like narcissitic or borderline PD, may be milder versions of schizotypal disorder?

I don't even know how this conclusion could be made, really. BPD isn't milder than schizotypal in pretty much every respect, for example. NPD ditto. They're fairly distinct and come from very distinct ideology, perception, etc.

The idea comes from the word borderline.

Borderline used to mean between neurosis and psychosis. Indeed older names for schizotypal disorder was pseudo-neurotic schizophrenia.

And specially at Kernberg Model, all three Pds work at the borderline level of organization, been the schizotypal more psychotic, and the narcissitic almost neurotic.


But I made the reference between the similarities of the symptons.

As for how narcissitc schizotypal personality disorder may be, is it really narcissism to have a rift between one's perception of the world and the actual world? Wouldn't that make anything even vaguely delusional be narcissism?

By that I mean exactly the schizotypal with idionomial or impulsive nonconformity.

Values in Persons With Schizophrenia wrote:Idionomia reflects the feeling of the radical uniqueness and exceptionality of one's being with respect to common sense and the other human beings. This sentiment of radical exceptionality is felt as a “gift,” often in view of an eschatological mission or a vocation to a superior, novel, metaphysical understanding of the world.

In theory SPD has basic four dimensions. Cognitive Disorganization, Introverted Anhedonia, Unusual Experience and Impulsive NonConformity. Impulsive NonConformity seens very cluster B to me specially borderline and a bit antisocial, and histrionic PD reminds Cognitive Disorganization a little bit.

Lets see the question of O-Life to measure Impulsive NonConformity.

http://www.nelft.nhs.uk/_documentbank/o ... scales.pdf

Do you consider yourself to be pretty much an average sort of person?a
Would you like other people to be afraid of you?
Do you often feel the impulse to spend money which you know you can’t afford?
Are you usually in an average kind of mood, not too high and not too low? a
Do you at times have an urge to do something harmful or shocking?
Do you stop to think things over before doing anything? a
Do you often overindulge in alcohol or food?
Do you ever have the urge to break or smash things?
Have you ever felt the urge to injure yourself?
Do you often feel like doing the opposite of what other people suggest even though you know they are right?

That really reminds Boderline PD.

creative_nothing wrote:Borderline used to mean between neurosis and psychosis. Indeed older names for schizotypal disorder was pseudo-neurotic schizophrenia.

It never only meant that though, it also meant borderline unstable, like in emotionally unstable.
The first meaning became StPD, the second became the ClusterB borderline.

creative_nothing wrote: Impulsive NonConformity seens very cluster B to me specially borderline and a bit antisocial, and histrionic PD reminds Cognitive Disorganization a little bit.

It is a bit fake for ClusterB though, and mainly a result of their unstable emotions.
It is why they talk about urges, triggers, and narc injuries.
It is a way at the same time to control their environment and justify emotional outbursts.
So you have a fake self that is quite normal, with an underlying emotional instability.
So it is not impulsive enough that they cannot help it most of the time, but when their real desires come up, it looks like impulsive, but really it is repressed emotions that cannot be hidden any further.
And again, you have concepts like superficial charm, splitting and grandiose self that are there to explain that very fact of hiding the true motives.
So there is a desire for conformity in ClusterB, but it fails due to bad emotional regulation and a sort of too heavy reliance on a controlled environment to keep that conformity intact. That is why the environment is usually blamed for every "non conform" emotion.
I think a true impulsive non-conformity is structurally different, and to some degree cannot internalize the conformity concept.

OneRinger wrote:

creative_nothing wrote:Borderline used to mean between neurosis and psychosis. Indeed older names for schizotypal disorder was pseudo-neurotic schizophrenia.

It never only meant that though, it also meant borderline unstable, like in emotionally unstable.
The first meaning became StPD, the second became the ClusterB borderline.

creative_nothing wrote: Impulsive NonConformity seens very cluster B to me specially borderline and a bit antisocial, and histrionic PD reminds Cognitive Disorganization a little bit.

It is a bit fake for ClusterB though, and mainly a result of their unstable emotions.
It is why they talk about urges, triggers, and narc injuries.
It is a way at the same time to control their environment and justify emotional outbursts.
So you have a fake self that is quite normal, with an underlying emotional instability.
So it is not impulsive enough that they cannot help it most of the time, but when their real desires come up, it looks like impulsive, but really it is repressed emotions that cannot be hidden any further.
And again, you have concepts like superficial charm, splitting and grandiose self that are there to explain that very fact of hiding the true motives.
So there is a desire for conformity in ClusterB, but it fails due to bad emotional regulation and a sort of too heavy reliance on a controlled environment to keep that conformity intact. That is why the environment is usually blamed for every "non conform" emotion.
I think a true impulsive non-conformity is structurally different, and to some degree cannot internalize the conformity concept.

I agree with this and it goes in accordance that save for those borderline with obvious very symptomatic bipolar commorbidity (which are high and most of the diagnosed, which are reshaping the perception of the illness erroneously), most of the Cluster Bs do not have a true impulsive nature. On the contrary, they are very scheming and tactical. Emotional outbursts of a true incontrollable nature are rare, and most of the time they're between putting on a show and letting out intense emotions when it suits them.

Remember that single individuals might be studied, and single individuals have multiple characteristic of more than one mental illness. It's a mix of different symptoms, and illnesses are grouped by similar symptoms or likely to cooccur.

There is some psychotic aspect to some BPDs, even without bipolar, but I don't think that is a must for the disorder. I would classify it as commorbity. Even then, lies (even self told lies) might count as psychotic beliefs depending on the point of view of the observing psychiatrists. Remember BPDs are constantly lying to soothe themselves or further their plans, and will not ever admit to it, which can lead to people believing they have multiple identities or psychosis, when in fact, they're lying to get an emotional reaction out of you, themselves, justify his actions or manipulate the perceptions of others. This is not psychosis.

Antagonism is a trait of every Cluster B disorders, albeit theirs is a quite malicious one. Think about a hyperhormonal human full of desires, that doesn't quite feel and think like a regular human. I think this is the core of their antagonism, really, deep down they feel and see their faults and instead of improving on them, they compensate with lying and aggression. BPD impulsive non conformity may come from their constant malaise and feeling of being attacked. People labeled as BPD might comprise people who underwent severe abuse for real, people with girly hormones too high that might always believe they were abused (they lie about it to others and themselves for reasons mentioned above) or bipolars, which have high affect and hurt their feelings easily. So they can be seen as non conformant because of that, I believe. If everything is pin and needles, you can grow destructive quick, since it doesn't matter anyways.

But the one in schizophrenia is different. i think schizophrenia and autism lack that emotionally, affectively rich basis that separates it from Cluster B disorders and bipolar spectrum disorders. Also, schizophrenia has many other gross forms of disorganization of thought and behavior. Like I said, an individual might be borderline and schizotypal, but I believe those are separate disorders, biologically.

Don't fall victim of outdated models and semantics, CN. Bipolar "narcissism", schizophrenic "narcissim", non "narcissism" and NPD might be completely different in cause and essence. But they all happen.

I think a few decades ago, the most common association with mania was of grandiose thinking and narcissism. A person who believes itself to be invincible and pays no respect to others, believing itself to be beautiful, creative, have a special connection with life, being favored "by God", unstopable, etc.. Then they get depressed and feel worthless beings. This is psychosis and emotions playing a role on the person's perceptions. But what happens in Cluster B disorders is completely different... It's not about real belief in self grandeur, on the contrary, tends to be compensatory. It's about lack of empathy (being selfish and treating others as objects), excessive competition and making up for feelings of inferiority. Imagine your status seeking behavior taken to the next level by dysregulated hormones that handle social behavior, not a cognitive distortion or psychosis making you believe in unreal things.

Good post twisted.

twistednerve wrote:There is some psychotic aspect to some BPDs, even without bipolar, but I don't think that is a must for the disorder. I would classify it as commorbity. Even then, lies (even self told lies) might count as psychotic beliefs depending on the point of view of the observing psychiatrists. Remember BPDs are constantly lying to soothe themselves or further their plans, and will not ever admit to it, which can lead to people believing they have multiple identities or psychosis, when in fact, they're lying to get an emotional reaction out of you, themselves, justify his actions or manipulate the perceptions of others. This is not psychosis.

I agree there is a qualitative difference here.
There is a kind of paranoid schizophrenia that seems like you describe, someone that gets caught into their own lies and justifications. I think it can decompensate into delusions and often hallucinations when it fails and control is lost, but it is quite different than the disorganized or catatonic type, which are more introverted and autistic and in a sense more "natural" to the person. Like you said, one of the difference is in the emotional content, the others in the detachment from the world and others, or the self and the body.
It does get a little hard from an outsider point of view to tell whether it is true delusion or simply a lie. When does the lie becomes delusion? only the person would know, and even then because it is a delusion, they would not know. One thing for sure though, even when decompensating, it is still more dramatic when it comes from a ClusterB.