IMO, narcissism is just an addiction like any other

I find this thread interesting as well, as there are biological reasons and commonalities between Cluster B traits associated with the brain's Reward System and "simpler" addictions. Some posters have brought those out.

That others find it idiotic or offensive seems to be due to the OP's less-NPD-experienced perspective (hence opening the thread for discussion) and NPDers reading too much negativity into the choice of words used. Locking this thread would be enabling of the Cognitive Distortions (i.e., all-or-nothing thinking, labeling) driving the desire to lock it.

Promotion of Critical Thinking skills on this forum is advantageous to all members.

"no one is born with empathy - empathy is learned through connection and emotion, guilt is a result of empathy"

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Okay - then I would say that most humans are born with the *capacity* to develop a sense of empathy. I have always read that psychopaths have no capacity for empathy and therefore (?) have no conscience. I don't think that NPD = psychopath. I think NPDs, like all addicts, have shut off their sense of empathy because that would interfere with their drug. I mean, it's hard to destroy your life and family with heroin if you genuinely feel for the people you're destroying - including yourself - and it's hard to use other people as a drug to supply you with validation if you have empathy for them.

No addict feels real empathy. Try living with an alcoholic or crackhead or addicted gambler. Addicts only care about their drug, and you will see empathy from none of them. One of the best signs of recovery is when the addict starts caring more about other people than they care about their drug.

"The only real way to cure an addiction is 1. stop the addictive behaviour, and 2. having exposed the underlying problem, heal what's causing it so the addictive behaviour isn't needed any more."

*******************I agree with this 100%.

"Personally, i believe in most cases, substance abusers like alcoholics are only ever encouraged to take and maintain the first step, and never entirely complete the second. (because society tends to measure emotional wellbeing by behaviour, or is more concerned with behaviour than emotional wellbeing.) which is why i think people say "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic"."

*********************Agree here also, though recovery programs do seem to be more focused on removing the causes these days. I hope so.

"As for people being disliked for having an addiction to something other people can give, I don't think this is actually true. Needing something from other people, is just needing something from other people. and if it gets in the way of how you see others, that's just the same as any other problem getting in the way."

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We all needs things from other people. Being willing to give as well as take is how we all get along with each other. It's how we form normal, healthy relationships.

But being "disliked" for using other human beings as a drug? Using such a term is just the stone-cold deafness and blindness of the addict who cannot see, hear or feel the immense cruelty of using others human beings as a drug instead of treating them as equals who should be valued.

Addicts of every kind live behind a solid stone wall that allows them to tune out the suffering they cause others. If they didn't, it would be real hard for anyone but a true psychopath to go on being so very cruel as to take and take and take from others and give nothing in return except lies, manipulation, dismissal, abandonment and replacement with another person I mean packet of heroin or bottle of Jack.

Okerry, someone's narcissism is probably much more than their addiction to narcissistic supply, they probably can't just join a 12 step program and have therapy for their other issues too. Personality disorders must be very difficult to treat. The posters we have here are trying, though.

"I have no feelings of vengence against the N in my life. In fact, my very first post here was a question asking how he could be helped, as he is an incredible spend-a-holic who was ruining his life and his future with this addiction. And in fact, he's not been diagnosed and I've diagnosed him myself. I could certainly be wrong.

"I think it is very worthwhile to explore ANY path leading to a possible personality disorder "cure" or "improvement", as most of the literature I've read on NPD seems to indicate it's "incurable". And I believe that this thread falls into the category of exploring a possible treatment path."

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I feel exactly the same. The more I looked into NPD, after being raised by an NPD mother and married to an NPD man (now divorced), the more I felt that this was not something inborn that could not be changed.

My ex was a nice, normal, decent human being and a very good husband and father until he was about 30 years old. Then, after being immersed in corporate culture while quickly climbing the ladder of success, he began to change so radically that today he is unrecognizable as the person he was. He fired me. He no longer has any decent relationship with his two now-adult children. He has problems with alcohol, gambling and sex addiction (he had none of these before.) He has absolutely wrecked his life and I have nothing but pity and sorrow towards him, even as I miss terribly the really good life we used to have together.

Since nothing else works, why not run the NPD through the addiction model and see what sticks? When I did that, guess what: All of it sticks. Which means there is hope for recovery and a normal life for NPDs and those whose lives they hurt so much.

I have nothing but pity and sorrow for any NPD. Forgetting for a moment the people like me and my kids, who have had their lives nuked by the actions of an NPD: As tough as it''s been on us, we would not trade places with my ex for anything. He's got way more money than we do and is a high-ranking exec at a financial instituition you would all recognize. He travels the world for his company and has all the toys and perks any man could want. And he''s got all the girls he can buy.

He also has not one decent relationship with any human being who loves him back. He has hundreds of numbers in his cell phone, but not one friend he can call. He has nothing but Flying Monkeys who pour fake admiration and attention down his throat all day long, but he only becomes more and more empty.

Why would anyone want to live this way? He only becomes more empty and misses out on more and more genuine human experience, especially genuine love with that runs both ways between himself and other human beings. The loneliness must be terrifying, but like any addict he just keeps on using to keep the pain away - and wonders why it never gets any better.

Why would I not hope for recovery for somebody living like that?

undenied wrote:If it's an addiction, it's one we've had since being toddlers. Saying it's an addiction is inaccurate and overly-simplistic.

Agree with undenied.

I think NPDs, like all addicts, have shut off their sense of empathy because that would interfere with their drug. I mean, it's hard to destroy your life and family with heroin if you genuinely feel for the people you're destroying - including yourself - and it's hard to use other people as a drug to supply you with validation if you have empathy for them.

They never developed empathy. Something happens to true narcissists (not just people exhibiting "traits" for other reasons) when they are 1 to 2 years old. They don't develop the ego boundary that the rest of us do, instead, they grow up reliant on splitting. They develop the narcissistic defense a short time later, also in early childhood. Their brain is wired differently. Empathy doesn't develop at all and it's not something they control. Can you make lightning strike? No more can they develop empathy.

What we don't know is why this failure happens and what influences the outcome in each case. Genetics? Environment? Both? Neither?

But it's not the same as an addiction.

ETA: I would never wish to downplay the catastrophic damage narcissists do to their children. I am such a child. But they are disordered people. Not addicts.

Maybe he had issues all along, but you just didn't notice before he turned 30... It can be hard to recognize something as wrong or "off" when you were raised by someone who behaved that way too.

jasmin wrote:Maybe he had issues all along, but you just didn't notice before he turned 30... It can be hard to recognize something as wrong or "off" when you were raised by someone who behaved that way too.

Good point, but as I mentioned before my ex-husband changed radically once he started working for the Big Corporation. We'd been together for about 10 years before that, and he was a very warm and loving person towards me and the kids but also had normal boundaries concerning other women. That all went through a massive, massive change.

And good point about the N mother, but again - he was very much the opposite of her when he and I were first together, during that first 10 years. He was loving and warm and supportive - he was normal. And then it all began to change.

Then maybe he didn't have Narcissistic Personality Disorder or he was a very good actor. There are psychopaths who talk about "faking" warmth and being loving with people. I'm not saying he's a psychopath, just that people can fake a lot of things.
An alcoholic might have a predisposition for alcoholism and then the behavior shows up when he starts drinking and becomes an addict, but NPD like other personality disorders is diagnosed in early adulthood, from what I've heard. So if he didn't show signs of being NPD before he found the stuff he became "addicted" to, it might be something else. Their behavior isn't triggered simply through contact with something that might give them narcissistic supply, the disorder is just there.