Sexist or sex-segregated diagnosis?

The word "histrionic" sounds sexist in a variety of ways, but going over the definition and FAQs, the behaviors described fit some women I know to a T. The "HPD game" is familiar to me, as is the lying, manipulating, cheating, betrayal etc. mentioned in other posts. However, from what I've read in The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy, there is at least some overlap with anti-social personality disorder, i.e. a range of behavior that may be diagnosed as histrionic in women, while the exact same behavior would be considered anti-social (and I might add, more likely criminalized) in men.

For example, one of the criteria is: "Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior." Words like "seductive or provocative" seem to be very female-specific in our culture. I have never heard such words used outside of a romance novel to describe human male behavior.

How much are histrionic and anti-social personality disorders really different, and to what extent might they not be the same disorder manifesting itself differently for different gender roles in society? And why is the feminine paradigm of "histrionic" applied to a man in some cases for behaviors that might be considered anti-social otherwise? How common is it for women to be diagnosed with anti-social rather than histrionic personality disorder?

And I should add that I've known others who seemed to show all the diagnostic traits for histrionic personality disorder, yet were kind, honest, and fun to be around.

My understanding is that there are two main types of HPD: Disingenuous Histrionic and Appeasing Histrionic.

The Disingenous has more of the ASPD/NPD symptoms crossed over and is more often found in men. It is the more aggressive type of HPD.

The Appeasing type is more often found in women and has more of the Dependent disorder and BPD/OCD type cross over traits. More the needy type. There are also five sub types to this disorder, but grouped as per the above. That is my understanding.

The 7 HPD symptoms are common in all types. However,they only have to display five of the seven. I assume what traits they display and how severe they are, depends on the sub type and the degree of the cross over.

Also, HPD is more often diagnosed in women, as promiscuity is often viewed differently in men than women. Men are thought off as mocho, when they have several sex partners or have had many over a life time. It is not considered in society, that woman can act the same. Although that seems to be changing. However, still considered more exceptable in men then women. Therefore HPD often goes undiagnosed in men.

That is my understanding anyway.

Here is an article that might help as well: http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hi ... order.html

I see. I think the fact that men go undiagnosed with HPD may have something to do with the disorder's being described in female terms, perhaps from some connection or confusion between that the Greek hystera and the Latin histrionicus.

I assume that "disingenuous" refers to the lying, cheating, deceit, betrayal, etc. This is the really bad type that I would think is more likely to be diagnosed as out-and-out antisocial in a man; the men with actual undiagnosed HPD would be of other types, I would think, but it's hard to tell, because all these subtypes seem to be described in the language of female stereotypes.

Are these the other subtypes you were referring to? I guess my second post would refer more to the "theatrical" subtype according to that chart.

Labeling personalities is pretty precarious business. Whether a disordered personality or not, any label can identify tendencies only. The woman I am thinking of could be described at times by all six of the histrionic subtypes.

I don't see why there should not be personality criteria specific to women. Whether biological or cultural, the same characteristics would be expressed (appear outwardly) differently in men and women. To put it another way, some sort of inaccurate, flawed inner self-perception is probably the source of any myriad of different personality characteristics. The personality is a symptom and I don't think it is surprising that these symptoms would appear differently in the sexes. Hence the need for (though for some reason culturally inappropriate) sex-specific personality descriptors in psychoanalysis. We should embrace it.

No both types will cheat and lie etc...The sub type chart you show, is correct .

However, the main grouping according to what I have read, is just the two. It is not so cut and dry. So some norrow it down to two, with sub groups, because of all the overlap and other personality trait factors. Norrowing it down to two, makes more sense to me. ( needy disorders/traits V aggressive ones) I am no expert! lol

The Appeasing type is more feminine and flambouyant type. Also clingy, obsessive and dependent. ( BPD/OCD/DPD).They cheat because they are afraid of being abandoned and need backups. These are the types, that don't like to let go, thus the constant contact. They do have extreme feelings, but do shift, once a new more secure supply is found. Men in this case would appear either very mocho or flambouyant Gay.

The disingenuous are more masculine and not so flamboyant. They have more phschopathic traits (ASPD/NPD) and have little or no empathy. Lots of guys or gals makes them feel superior. They are much more aggressive and less dependent. Once a supply is of no use, they abandon and move on quicker, provided they were the one to end the relationship. If not, watch out. They are not as clingy. They are also aggressive if critized or exposed in anyway or you abandom them first They can be verbally or physically abusive or make threats. They really don't care and more self centred. Women in this case would be a little more quite and reserved, but appear extremely confident. Same for the man. They are just more secretive and aggressive. Not my favorite type. I think this was my ex! lol

Again, the degree of each type depends on the severity of the individuals disorder.

That is my understanding anyway. Anyone else have a take on this?

okherewego wrote:No both types will cheat and lie etc...The sub type chart you show, is correct .

The word itself suggests dishonesty, and according to that chart, the disingenuous subtype is almost entirely characterized by dishonesty:

Millon wrote:Disingenuous
(antisocial features)
Underhanded, scheming, conniving, plotting, crafty, false-hearted; egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating, guileful.

Of course some men cheat, lie, dramatize, and think they're so hot and just the thing for the ladies, but we don't call them histrionic because they don't have a uterus. Explain again the need for sex-specific personality descriptors.

I think in this case histrionic means actor or theatrical.The dictionary definition.

Again, men can seduce woman as much as women can seduce men. Again, I think the issue arises in diagnosis because it is more exceptable in society that men can have many partners and not be considered in appropiate behavior. For wowen to do that, they are still labeled.

Also, I do agree that the behavior of men that have HPD, should be better defined. There is a big difference in that behavior. Men are more mocho, women more feminine. Extreme.

From my understanding, there is still little known of this disorder in general. It is not easy to diagnose.

justinl wrote:

okherewego wrote:No both types will cheat and lie etc...The sub type chart you show, is correct .

The word itself suggests dishonesty, and according to that chart, the disingenuous subtype is almost entirely characterized by dishonesty:

Millon wrote:Disingenuous
(antisocial features)
Underhanded, scheming, conniving, plotting, crafty, false-hearted; egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating, guileful.

Of course some men cheat, lie, dramatize, and think they're so hot and just the thing for the ladies, but we don't call them histrionic because they don't have a uterus. Explain again the need for sex-specific personality descriptors.

Well I don't think the burden of proof should fall entirely on claiming there ought to be sex-specific personality descriptors. Why should we have gender neutral desriptors? Men and women think and act differently. If histrionic is simply manifested as dishonest behavior then it would be gender-neutral. Dishonesty is one of the few universal (i.e. not relative) moral truths (don't kill might be another). But some other characteristics could be seen as pertainting most often to women. Without resorting to the official criteria, I think of the tantrums, crocodile tears, coy, clingy, demanding behavior [pervasive pattern of"] that I experienced and think they would be ineffective for a man to get the validation of self he needs. This all raises difficult questions about the relationship between character, behavior, the self, and personality. Difficult concepts in their own right, not to mention how they relate to one another. It's important to keep in mind that we are necessarily limited, first by the paradox that a mind can understand itself (much of our knowledge of psychology comes by introspection - a precarious business), second because we must work within a language which by it's very nature practically precludes the possibility for neutrality and objectivity. Some concepts may lend themselves to this more than others (the concepts of physics for example), but probably not the concepts of psychology.

Just some thoughts. I see no problem with speaking of different personalities in men and women, but I'm not qualified to comment further. I'm a philosopher not a psychologist.

The word itself suggests dishonesty, and according to that chart, the disingenuous subtype is almost entirely characterized by dishonesty:

Millon wrote:Disingenuous
(antisocial features)
Underhanded, scheming, conniving, plotting, crafty, false-hearted; egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating, guileful.

Millon hit the nail on the head! I saw his definition some time ago now. My therapist pointed me too it at the time once i had described events of my relationship, it was a major revelation for me and soothing too. The first 7 months of the relationship she managed to cover it all up, but the latter 7 months unveiled all these characterisics. If i had known about 8 months into the relationship (after the first bundle of deceipt came out) what I know now, i'd have cut my losses and walked away from it immediately. Unfortunately girls with HP don't come with an operational manual and warning sticker.