Wondering if ex-girlfriend may have HPD

I'm really feeling broken up and could use some help understanding if my ex-girlfriend may have HPD. There is a lot to our story, and the whole story seems important to tell to get the full picture of what is going on between us, but I'll try to keep it short as possible for now and maybe later I can fill in details in order to get further help. I'm so glad I found this forum.

Quick background: We met at work 2 years ago, though we don't work directly together (she's a secretary, I'm an engineer). She had been divorced a year prior. Currently she is 40 and I am 45; we both seem and look younger for our age...though I would say she does seem more "little girl" like at times, and though I can act like a kid at heart, I would say I still have a mature demeanor that stays in control. Also, regarding her: I know she was neglected as a child due to alcoholic mother and distant father who gave her up for adoption. She was bullied by schoolmates severely because she is half Hispanic. She told me she attempted suicide as a kid. She had her first child at 17 because the father took advantage of her when she was intoxicated. Later, in her 20s, she was with a guy who abused and controlled her severely (another kid from this relationship). I also know somewhere along the line she was raped by a different guy. She got married at 30. She told me her marriage ended because he turned verbally abusive and they didn't sleep together for 2 years till the end. The marriage finally ended when she attempted suicide. When we met it seemed like she was on a good path and she seemed happy as a lark.

So maybe the thing to do is just list some traits and examples and maybe people can tell me if this sounds like HPD. After writing this all out I realize it is quite long, so jump to the last paragraph for a summary if you prefer.

1. She giggles a lot and at times can be very loud

2. She seemed to be smitten by me very quickly when we first met, and I almost felt like some things she'd say to me were out of proportion to the actual depth we'd gotten to know each other thus far. For example, she'd whisper "why are you so nice?" when I was wondering what this was based on, I was just being me and not sure I had done anything that special. But I am a good-hearted guy, so maybe she just had a knack for knowing.

3. Though I didn't really notice her being flirty with other guys, she seemed to get flirty with me pretty quickly. For example, early on she told me sometimes "love you baby!" when I didn't know where this was coming from because I felt we still had a ways to go before knowing if we loved each other. We weren't even officially dating yet, though at this point we were in daily contact from morning to night through texting, IMing, phoning, visiting each other at our desks.

4. Early on, before we did date officially and before she finally got to me and I fell in love with her, she'd be very concerned about if I liked her hair and seems when she dressed a certain way, or did her makeup a certain way, she'd come by my desk to be sure I saw her. Eventually I was complimenting her a lot, because she did look beautiful indeed.

5. She'd get sick a lot (and still does) and sometimes in the back of my mind I was wondering how "real" it was. She does have a hereditary brain condition where she gets hemorrhages of blood vessels, and she gets migraines, so this is real, but sometimes I'd get the feeling like other ailments of hers were inflated. I would offer to be there for her, bring her soup, whatever, but she would not let me.

6. She does miss a lot of work due to being sick...like sometimes 2 or more days a month.

7. Often it seemed other people in her family were getting sick and she'd have to run off to be there for them...like at the hospital she'd say...and sometimes these were unusual hours that i found hard to believe. But then she would not tell me later how things turned out. If I asked her, she came across pretty flat like the event was very distant.

8. When I did start falling in love with her (because her charm toward me finally got to me) and I then wanted to spend more time with her outside of work, actually going on dates, not just texting each other all day long, it then became difficult to get time together. She just seemed to have a different way of viewing time. For me I wanted to be able to get together for a date, like, once a week minimum, but for her weeks could go by and she'd not think anything was weird about that. Yet if I got frustrated and say "well, I just feel more like your pseudo boyfriend, and like we have a false sense of intimacy because we text all day, but really I want to know you more fully by having real 3D time together" well, she would get disconnected. Then if I withdrew, she would feel quite upset, like she didn't really want to lose me...like she really had to keep a hold on me. If we exchanged tense words, within an hour she would try to contact me again as if everything was now OK. If I seemed particularly stern, she would get quite meek and just whisper a single sentence to me like "I just need to go slow and know you care for me as a friend first and it's not all about sex." The my heart would melt for her because I sensed something vulnerable.

9. A few days after we kissed for the first time, and this was a few days after I had given her a birthday present too of nice bath items and lotions and other girly stuff, she seemed to want to make me jealous. She told me one day that someone had left a gift of lotions on her desk. She has a lot of women friends at work so I said "maybe it's from one of your lady friends" and she said "no, we don't get each other lotion". I sensed she might be trying to make me jealous, but I didn't go there yet. I just said, "well, it's got to be from one of them, who else could it be from?" Then later that night she text me "I found out who the lotions were from...Bobby who delivers the mail." OK, now I said "well, I don't really like that, and if you and I were officially a couple at this point I would wish you'd return them...but since it is still early in our involvement, I don't feel I can expect that." This upset her. She said "I don't like it if you feel jealous!" So I was like "it's not a matter of jealousy, it's a matter of boundaries and respect." She then said, "well it is just lotion, I'm not giving it back." And I said, it's not just lotion to me, coming from a guy that has a more intimate connotation...I don't like the idea of some other man's lotion spreading on your body." I even called her on trying to test me since we had just had our first kisses stating maybe she is scared of our intimacy so now testing it.

10. Another time at work she got some flowers and I was upset because this was truly just a few days before I had planned to surprise her with some for the first time. She at first wondered if they were from me. I said, well no, but you won't believe this, I was going to get you some this weekend and sneak them in Sunday night to surprise you Monday morning. I said I felt really bad and I don't like it if some other guy did this. She said the card on it said "just because" and again she was upset that I felt jealous because she said she can't help it if someone gave her flowers. But, no empathy toward me at the way my heart sank that someone beat me to the punch. No acknowledgement of how sweet of this to be in my heart. I decided to get her flowers anyway as I originally planned. Monday morning she was very tickled to get them and gave me very sweet thanks. She then told me the flowers were from a group at work thanking her for helping them and the card said "because you rock" (a little different implication than "just because")

11. Another time we had a disagreement on something and I had to go talk to a manager that she was the secretary for. As I was sitting in the office she had to come in and out and she would not look at me at all even though I kept trying to catch her eye. She had a bit of a flustered air about her, but like she was trying to act like nothing was wrong...kind of like "hmph!" When my meeting was over, I went to her desk, got on my knee and looked at her. She then softened and asked me in an intimate way "what are you doing?" I put my hand on her knee and just looked at her compassionately and she looked at me like she felt reassured herself and reassuring to me that we're OK. We were good for awhile after that.

12. Fast forward a few months to October...I went on a trip...wanted her to go and offered to pay her way, but she couldn't because of new custody arrangement with her kids. But she didn't talk to me the whole time I was gone. As I was enroute home, she dropped the bomb that she was breaking things off with us citing that she was falling in love with her roommate (male) of 2.5 years. She did it indirectly by pretending to text a friend, but it went to me instead...she said "dang I miss my roommate". And I was like "uh, this is me and why are you texting me that you miss someone else after ignoring me the whole time I've been gone?" The roommate had taken a trip to North Dakota where he was planning on moving for work. I called her out on purposely accidentally texting me and she denied it.

13. After the breakup, I didn't contact her for 6 weeks. At this point we were on different floors at work. But, she'd come by my cubicle and chitchat with my cubemates even though she had no reason to. I ignored her though I really ached inside. Other times she'd walk by and be loud and I figured it was because she was hoping I'd notice her. There was no reason for her to take that route by my cube...there are plenty of other routes she could take.

14. Thanksgiving came and I sent her an email about all the things I was thankful for about having had her in my life. The next day I heard from a mutual friend that her dog had died Thanksgiving morning. It turns out she did reply to my Thanks email, but all she said was "my dog died and I'm very sad". So nothing about the thanks I gave her...but I could understand if she was consumed by grief so I replied with my heartfelt condolences because I knew what dogs meant to her. But no reply to that.

15. Then in December turns out my work group was merging with hers and we were getting moved back to the same floor again and only 5 desks from each other (out of 150 people!) Also, I sat next to an office assistant, LeAnne, whom she had to coordinate with a lot. It was clear we were both impacted by our now close proximity. I wrote her an email the first day and said how strange we are now so close to each other again, yet so far...that I miss her...but if she's still with the other guy, I have to respect her choice...but if I don't say much to her it's because I don't know how to be with her if I'm not her man anymore. The next few days it seemed she was making great effort to get my attention...she would come sit at the office assistant's desk, which was right next to mine and act like she had something to do there. She showed up at a blood donation drive the same time I had an appointment which was in my online calendar. I got a supposed "accidental" phone call from her. I sent another email asking her about these things. She replied back (she usually doesn't reply to anything I write) saying "Arthur, you'll always be in my heart, but I just don't know how to approach you at this time!" Finally one day she had ordered teriyaki for anyone who wanted it and there were leftover soups. She could have gone to any cubicle to offer the leftovers, but she came right to mine and offered to my cubemates who already had eaten...I always take a later lunch. She then offered them to me, which broke the ice. I graciously accepted them and she was all smiles. But you see, she can't speak very well about what her wish is, she instead tries to find other subtle ways to achieve her objective.

16. So the ice was broken and we started talking again and she'd look for excuses to be in contact. One day she mentioned how she's lost 20 pounds (she was always dieting). I told her she must be proud and she looks great as always (I never minded her a little cushy). She said "now I have a flat stomach and a round booty." I joked and said "I have a round stomach and a flat booty." She told me I was funny.

17. Another day she brought me a plate of food from a bbq potluck. I told her it looked like somebody took a bite of the rib. She said "I did, now you'll get my cooties." I said, "I like your cooties." She laughed.

18. Another day she came by asking me where an address was in the city I live showing me on her iphone maps and we touched hands as she handed it to me. I said, oh, that's really close to my house, just a mile away. She said she was looking at a house there because she was going to move. There were other people nearby so I didn't want to get into why was she moving -- but I wondered if things were done with the roommate and that's why she was talking to me again. I had already asked her in an email, but she didn't reply. I decided to ask her again saying I wondered if she was trying to give me a subtle message by bringing up about her moving...because she still hasn't told me about the status with her and her roommate...but I'd love it if she could give us another try and if she lived closer to me so it would be easier for us to spend time together, and I could help her with her kids and around the house. Well, the next day she was quite cold to me. And since it is difficult to talk at work, I emailed again saying, I'm confused...she gives me certain hints/signals -- that she is very forward but not very direct. Well, she replied back in an exasperated way "Arthur, I'm sorry, but I have a boyfriend!" So now I knew she is still with the roommate (and I'm assuming he didn't move to North Dakota at this point because they became a couple instead of just roommates). I feel angry and hurt because i felt she was giving me signals like she was re-interested in me. I tell her that it seems all she wants is to just be sure I'm still hooked on her so she can keep me as a backup in case things don't work with him, and also as a means of attention. No reply.

19. The next day she comes into my cubicle to mingle with my teammates. She even gets a little flirty with my buddy Ben whom I have to work closely with. She has no reason to talk with them and normally doesn't. I email her, why is she doing that? Seems she just wants to get my attention or a reaction from me. She emails back that they are her friends too and if I don't like it too bad. I then find out that she emailed a funny Christmas tree drawing to everyone in my cubicle, except me...and only them, not anyone else in our organization. So I emailed her, why this? I told her I adore her, and do we really want to do spiteful things where we'll only grow to hate one another? She replies back, "what are you talking about? I didn't send a Christmas tree to anyone. Really Arthur." (Well, my teammate showed me the email and I saw who she sent it to with my own eyes.) Then we went on company holiday till the new year. But on Christmas day she emailed me a Merry Christmas.

20. Come the new year and we return to work. She isn't there the first week. I hear the office assistant. LeAnne, who sits next to me and another gal whispering that she's sick, and a little bit about how she handles the coffee station funds (not well they say), and how she gets loud and always talking about her weight loss, and is it for attention or does she have ADHD? Well, I felt concerned. That weekend I email her that I notice when she's not at work now that we sit so close together and how it used to be she'd always let me know when she wouldn't be at work or if she was sick. I tell her I worry about her and hope she's OK, and that I hope money isn't too tight for her (because she would just scrape by sometimes, in fact I'd often buy or bring her lunch to ease some burden, and the two ladies were talking about how she borrows from the coffee fund to buy lunch sometimes.) Anyway, no reply from her.

21. She comes back to work and one day a guy she pals around with, Al, who has a friend who actually sexually harassed her (saying how he wanted to play with her breasts all day long), comes up behind her while she is talking to LeAnne, and she says loudly "Are you trying to touch my butt?!" Well, I write her another email about how I didn't like that he lets her treat her that way, that he's always poking at her, and it isn't good attention. But the main thing is, why so loud about announcing he was trying to touch her butt? When she knows i am right there? so seems she was hoping to get a reaction from me. You guessed it, no reply. But still, I'm writing these things because it feels important to tell her my thoughts...and discussing at work is not opportune.

22. A couple days later i come back from lunch one day to find that she is sitting in my desk chair while talking to LeAnne. She gives me back my chair with a coy smile. Other times we have passed in the hallways and she often smiles at me like she's being a bit alluring.

23. A few days after that, she plays a move in an iphone game that she and I hadn't played since October when she broke up with me. So I'm like, ok, she's trying to reconnect with me again. And i wonder why. I go ahead and play the game with her.

24. A few days later she hands out company issued ice scrapers (a winter safety promotion). I email her "is this a magic ice scraper that can scrape away the ice between us?" OK, now I got a reply from her and we start talking, texting, emailing, IMing again. In fact one night she IMs me and we have a discussion for an hour and she confides in me about an upsetting thing that happened at work. As we wrap things up she tells me how nice it was to have this discussion and thanks me for always being so great to her even through all we've been through.

25. A potluck happens for the Super Bowl that she organized. I help her clean up afterwards and she tells me how her oldest daughter and the grandkids are moving in with her for awhile till they get relocated to this side of the state. I help her carry things out to her car. She gives me a hug. First time in months. I'm wondering about the status with the roommate and maybe they broke up? Because we're connecting on another level again.

26. She even calls me later after she left work to ask me to collect the money from her coffee fund. I'm really surprised she's calling me, but I'm glad. She does have a tone in her voice like she's a little cautious though...like she's putting out a feeler to see how I react. I react with a cool head and say "sure, no problem I'll get it for you" and even am the first one to say goodby so she doesn't get skittish if I come across like I'm clinging.

27. The next week I have to go to Arizona for a health reason...nothing life threatening, but a specialist doctor there who deals with the problem I have due to a birth defect of sorts. She and I are in constant contact from morning to night, texting, phone calls. It is starting to feel like we're connecting better than we have since before our breakup and even like how it used to be. Then midweek she tells me in a text "good thing my boyfriend lives in North Dakota, because with my daughter's family moving in there is no room for him here". So I'm like, OK, now I have my answer...the boyfriend is still in the picture...but what?! he lives in North Dakota now? So he did move after all? But we were both not feeling well from my health procedure and her being sick (again) that I said, well, we both need sleep, but I'd like to talk about this later.

28. While in Arizona I pick her up some good hot sauce, dip mix, and salsa from Pepper Palace because she is half Mexican. When I get home on Saturday I call her, leaving a message, inviting her to come over for a movie and to have chips with the salsa and dip mix I got her. The next day I get a text "no I'm not coming over, nice try". I reply to her that it is pretty hard to take seriously that things are real with the ex-roommate, especially now that he lives in North Dakota, and now I'm thinking he has lived there ever since she broke up with me since he was planning to move there anyway. Plus she and I have been in contact again so much in the past couple weeks like she and I are a couple again. I tell her I'd really like her to be my Valentine or at least go somewhere with me for my birthday which is two days later. She gets exasperated and says, "No I can't be your Valentine, I will not be that person, I love my boyfriend!" Well, now I'm feeling triggered. I should have just played it cool and said "OK, ok, no problem" but I'm missing her so much, and the attention I got from HER. I tell her a few things to invalidate the legitimacy of their relationship and then she knows just what button to push to blow me out of the water: she tells me how many thousands of dollars he has spent on her and the kids, and how great their sex life is, he knows her better than she knows herself, and how they just have that trust in one another. And whether any of this is true or not, I feel totally emasculated. The sexual aspect because I have a very small penis which is due to the birth defect, and the money aspect because she said he bought her kids bedroom sets and she knows how much I wanted to be able to man up for her and her kids and be the family guy. (She also says how he's bought them an 80 inch tv and $4000 couch -- which makes all my generosity, from my sentimental heart, seem as small as my penis.) She also tells me she is erasing me from her life, she can't do this with me anymore. I'm crushed.

29. So, Valentines Day comes a few days later, and I'm dreading if she ends up getting flowers at work from her boyfriend. Sure enough, flowers show up all right...but who knows who they are really from...could be from her daughter, could be from herself? But she makes a big hoopla about it going around to colleagues sitting close to me to come look at her beautiful flowers and certainly wants me to believe they are from the boyfriend. But I never hear her say who they are from. But I am apalled by her show. I email her later saying why is it so important to her to try to make me feel jealous? That she can dismiss me and say "Oh Arthur you're just jealous", but it seems that actually there is something in her that really wants me to be, so why?

30. No more contact till 2 weeks later and I get an IM at work from her thanking me again for a personalized coffee mug I had an artist make for her over the summer when we were still together because I noticed she always used a styrofoam cup for coffee (so see how I try to put thought into my gifts, not just money). I don't reply because I'm just thinking why if I'm erased is she now doing this? I wonder if it is because she feels guilty for coming across so shallow and ungrateful for things I'd done for her? Or is she trying to say sorry and open a door for us to have contact again?

31. The following week she is out sick (again). I notice the money is starting to pile high at her coffee station, so I collect it for her before theft occurs and a lot of time she comes up short and pays out of her pocket. I end up collecting it all week. I decide to email her and let her know that I heard she was sick, she knows I'm always concerned about how often she gets sick, and I am collecting her coffee money because it didn't look like anyone else is. I also ask her if she could explain why, if I'm erased, did she decide to re-thank me for the coffee mug? No reply from her all week.

32. She returns the next week and I told her I left the money in envelopes in my desk drawer because I didn't want to leave so much out in the open for anyone to steal. She comes in a few hours earlier than I do, so she doesn't have to go through me to get the money, but I didn't feel comfortable to put it in her desk drawer without her OK. A couple days pass and she hasn't gotten the money, meanwhile I'm still collecting it after she goes home for the day. I decide to just put all the daily envelopes into a bigger envelope and leave it on her desktop after all because i'm feeling weird to have all her money in my desk. I put a note in that I hope my collecting it saved her from losing some of it to cheap sticky fingered engineers and I'm not sure I will continue collecting it because I don't know if that's ok with her or appreciated. And p.s., I really wish she'd put a little effort into answering why she felt compelled to thank me again for the mug (becuase I'm hoping to get some kind of admission from her that she felt remorseful about coming across as so ungrateful toward me, or sorry she erased me but she doesn't really want that...something to indicate awareness of her feelings and mine.

33. The next morning I get a surprising email from her that in part really showed some empathy! She said she really appreciates that I collected the money for her, that no one else even thought about her money, and if it wasn't for me some of it probably would have been stolen. So I was like, wow, she can be empathetic?? She also answered my question about the coffee mug saying she just had to use it at the time, and so she wanted to thank me. That was disappointing. I replied that i really am surprised to hear her say such nice things about my collecting her money and it means a lot. I told her I still feel confused about the coffee mug though...saying isn't there something behind why she thanked me for that after "erasing" me? Like was it so she'd have a reason to re-establish contact? No reply.

34. This really hit me so I felt like I was in a dark, hopeless place. I wrote her again saying that I try to apologize for my part in things if I feel like I may have hurt her or been unfair...and I did for our recent blowout. So doesn't she feel like maybe she's got something to apologize for too? Like her in-my-face comments and behavior? That just re-thanking me for a coffee mug doesn't quite cover hurtful things from her end? And why does she want to be so hurtful toward me when I tried so hard to be good to her? No reply, but the next day at work she was very giggly and loud in the office and calling men who talked with her "dear" as if to say "see how compassionate I am".

35. She got more flowers at work...and I told her, does she have to have them there? Whoever they are from, I feel terrible because I wish they were from me...can she have some compassion on my hurting heart and instead of displaying them (in my line of vision from my desk) can she have them sent home. Doesn't anything in her say "Oh, so-and-so got me these flowers, but Arthur is nearby and he is broken-hearted about me...he didn't deserve my rejection, he was always so good to me, so I don't want to hurt him further so I'll take these home instead." But no, the next day at work just as giggly and boisterous and happy as ever.

Anyway, this takes us up to this past week. This ended up being very long and maybe I didn't capture the feel of it all very well, but the main points are: she doesn't seem able to put herself in my shoes and understand how I might be hurting and so maybe she should tone it down or tread a little lighter. She doesn't seem to feel she has things to apologize for on her part. Often when asked questions, she isn't able to elaborate. When something is said that hurts her, her comeback is usually to act like she is happy as all get out. When I've told her in the past I love her, she wouldn't believe it and just would say "wow" or scoff at the idea. When I express my feelings on something, though I try to present myself with balance, if something in my words offend her, she latches onto just that and anything else I say that is loving is tossed out the window. She often does her physical appearance in a more flamboyant way. She left me for a guy that turns out moved states away. She makes attempts to get under my skin or make me jealous. She in time starts to give me signals again like she is re-interested in me, but then when I start to bite, she then rebuffs me. And not to make her sound all bad, because she can be incredibly sweet and charming in ways that melt the heart.

Does this sound like she may be HPD? If so, what is advice to me? I feel like she's really got some hooks in me and I feel very lost without her in my life as my girlfriend...like I'm a bottle tossed out to sea wondering if I'll ever be found and will the message inside me ever be read.

Hey Art
Welcome to the forum.

Never seen a 35 point itemized list of trauma...jeez you must have really taken a fall.

Anyhow, BPD, HPD, NPD, AsPD...what's the difference? It's all Cluster B chaos. Kinda like Dysentery...it can be viral, bacterial, or amoebic, but in the end it's all still the sh*ts.

Just pull up stakes and leave, and don't look back. You can only further diminish whatever chances she has to manage her disorder. And go see a shrink for men. Besides considering the considerable anger and PTSd you might have accumulated, maybe he can uncover your issues.

Sorry this didn't look so lengthy when I typed up the draft. Was kind of meant to tell the story with scenarios where I'm trying to catch a clue as to what's behind her behavior and help making sense of it to help me heal. Quite honestly your response to me is on the offensive side to just tell me to look at my issues, as if I'm not. I came here for help in understanding the dynamics that occurred, not to be insulted.

Sorry, seems like you really took a hit, and maybe your first priority should be to move away from all this for a while. Or at least go over it in real time with a professional.

I dont have the opportunity to go into depth. There is over 5 years of largely repeated experiences here, if you want to go over HPD dynamics and the issues of Nons...

(edited...Orion)

You know, you can write all you want or even try to understand all you want, but in the end, if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it probably is. So have faith in how she makes you feel and follow your instincts. Your story is like many others on this forum. It hurt.

So follow your gut and let her go. It will hurt, but in the end you will be far better off. Time will heal.

Take care of yourself..

Well, I'm feeling just a little less sensitive the last couple days. It is a bit frustrating on my first post to feel criticized for my 35 paragraphs trying to explain my story and scenarios. I've been reading several other posts and others also get pretty lengthy at times. So, you know.

I tend to think that my ex-gf has a number of HPD traits, but I don't know if officially she'd be diagnosed as such. But as Beatle says, yes, if it talks like, walks like, it probably is. Eight years ago I likely had a BPD girlfriend, so at that time I learned a fair amount about some of these cluster B disorders, and I myself did a lot of work on me and attended Al-Anon meetings as well. I was single up till meeting my recent (now ex) girlfriend, and I believe I have handled her much better as far as not getting wrapped up into codependency. And, in many ways she is much more functional and together than the previous (BPD) girlfriend.

But still, I am near her daily due to work and I get torn between avoiding her entirely vs. wanting to somehow step up as an honorable man and treat her with dignity. I feel like I'm failing at the latter and my self-esteem and sense of myself as a man suffers. Like right now I am just ignoring her entirely. When I wish I could look her in the eye and acknowledge her with compassion.

But last week she had to come around and ask all the engineers if they wanted to join some extra activities and when she asked me I just glared at her. Because she acted so nice like all the recent activity in my 35 point novel above had never happened. Then a few days later she came prancing with the sweetest smile into my cubicle (shared with 6 others) and offered Easter chocolates to everyone except me. But, she did not go into any of the other cubicles in our office and do this. Just mine. A few minutes later I get an instant message from her saying "I would have offered you chocolate, but I just know you would have given me an ugly look. So if you want some you can get it off my desk." Well, I didn't reply. If I do I want to say something that is "in the solution" not exacerbating the problem. What I don't get is, again, she erased me and said some really cruel things that she knew would hurt me to the core, yet if I react with a glare when she now suddenly acts like nothing is wrong, now I'm the bad guy for giving her an ugly look. Yet we both do this with each other...me moreso because I'm in love and she now is "with" her former roommate who lives in ND...we both are hurting each others' feelings, then in time we both try to make gestures of goodwill (like me collecting her coffee funds, or now she wanting to offer me chocolate), and then if the offer of goodwill is rebuffed we are both hurt. But of course, I am still taking it harder (as far as I can tell because she is still plenty cheerful acting at work and I feel a lot of grief.)

So I keep thinking there must be some way to bridge this between us, or transform the dynamic somehow.

arthur, i can feel your pain through the screen hon. i'm going to ask because i see a lot of things that have been done to you that don't point to me that she is your missing puzzle piece. i see red flags on both sides that don't point to you as being compatible in the love department. there's a lack of respect and boundaries that need to be more profound.

my current advice to you? leave her alone. if and when she's ready to come back to you, she'll make it known. it's unhealthy for you to try and continue this friendship because you're taking apart her every move looking for a hidden meaning. believe me, i've been in these shoes before and i may even be wearing them now. get over her first before you befriend her. please.

hugs,

wineaux

Thanks Wineaux for attempting to give me some advice, but I'm not really following you, you'd have to be more specific, not so general. She's the one who has recently contacted me and makes efforts to be in my space, even after saying she was erasing me, and I'm just trying to understand her motives and reactions. Why shouldn't I think hidden meaning is there? And what in what I last posted doesn't reflect a sincere desire on my part to do right by her and act honorably? Your words "get over her first...please" is a bit much. Anyway, no need to reply, I just am a bit dumbfounded.

ok art, i'm not here to sugarcoat your donut, so prepare yourself:

I still have a mature demeanor that stays in control.

magnet for girls with daddy issues & pwHPD

...and controlled her severely...The marriage finally ended when she attempted suicide.

controlling behaviors trigger her. you have exhibited some seriously controlling behaviors from what i read in this thread. little things like what you said about the lotions and flowers. i'm not saying x can lead to y but you have to understand that when we are faced with triggers, we will BAIL.

why are you so nice

this means either 2 things...she's either filling you with supply as HPDs are known to put those we are idealizing on a pedestal or she's being serious. i tend to think the first is the real answer here based on your background.

When I did start falling in love with her (because her charm toward me finally got to me) and I then wanted to spend more time with her outside of work, actually going on dates, not just texting each other all day long, it then became difficult to get time together. She just seemed to have a different way of viewing time. For me I wanted to be able to get together for a date, like, once a week minimum, but for her weeks could go by and she'd not think anything was weird about that. Yet if I got frustrated and say "well, I just feel more like your pseudo boyfriend, and like we have a false sense of intimacy because we text all day, but really I want to know you more fully by having real 3D time together" well, she would get disconnected. Then if I withdrew, she would feel quite upset, like she didn't really want to lose me...like she really had to keep a hold on me. If we exchanged tense words, within an hour she would try to contact me again as if everything was now OK. If I seemed particularly stern, she would get quite meek and just whisper a single sentence to me like "I just need to go slow and know you care for me as a friend first and it's not all about sex." The my heart would melt for her because I sensed something vulnerable.

she's stringing you along. no one in their right mind who's in an established relationship will go weeks or months at a time without physical contact. she had someone else(s) on the side and using 'not all about sex' is an excuse to keep you there.

She said "I don't like it if you feel jealous!"

lie

I don't like the idea of some other man's lotion spreading on your body." I even called her on trying to test me since we had just had our first kisses stating maybe she is scared of our intimacy so now testing it.

here's that controlling thing i was talking about ^^^ that would push me light years away from you.

she didn't talk to me the whole time I was gone.

did you reach out to her and she didn't respond?

As I was enroute home, she dropped the bomb that she was breaking things off with us citing that she was falling in love with her roommate (male) of 2.5 years.

did you know this roommate? what was your relationship with him?

She did it indirectly by pretending to text a friend, but it went to me instead...she said "dang I miss my roommate". And I was like "uh, this is me and why are you texting me that you miss someone else after ignoring me the whole time I've been gone?" The roommate had taken a trip to North Dakota where he was planning on moving for work. I called her out on purposely accidentally texting me and she denied it.

of course she did...what a completely passive aggressive move which by doing this means that there is a possibility to ensnare you again because there wasn't some huge tremendous blowup.

Thanksgiving came and I sent her an email about all the things I was thankful for about having had her in my life.

why did you send this to her after weeks of NC? and what were you thankful for? someone who: tried to make you jealous, ignored your feelings, flirted with other men in front of you, disrespected you, cheated on you, left you for another man by not even confronting you face to face about it.

I sent another email asking her about these things. She replied back (she usually doesn't reply to anything I write) saying "Arthur, you'll always be in my heart, but I just don't know how to approach you at this time!"

why are you beating a dead horse?

She said "now I have a flat stomach and a round booty." I joked and said "I have a round stomach and a flat booty." She told me I was funny...She said "I did, now you'll get my cooties." I said, "I like your cooties." She laughed.

the first joke is fine, the second is inappropriate. she's with someone else and you keep pushing the boundaries. you are friends, you need to act like one.

I emailed again saying, I'm confused...she gives me certain hints/signals -- that she is very forward but not very direct. Well, she replied back in an exasperated way "Arthur, I'm sorry, but I have a boyfriend!" So now I knew she is still with the roommate (and I'm assuming he didn't move to North Dakota at this point because they became a couple instead of just roommates). I feel angry and hurt because i felt she was giving me signals like she was re-interested in me. I tell her that it seems all she wants is to just be sure I'm still hooked on her so she can keep me as a backup in case things don't work with him, and also as a means of attention. No reply.

you're disrespecting her boundaries art. she's told you several times she's with someone else and you're misreading her flirty kindness for something more. your heart is still in this mess, this is why when i said you need to get over her first before you start a friendship!! it can't work...you will always misconstrue whatever she says or does to mean there's something more. believe me art, i'm going through something similar and am regretting trying to be friends so soon as i've pushed him away and now i've lost a good friend because of my impulsive behavior and lack of boundaries.

While in Arizona I pick her up some good hot sauce, dip mix, and salsa from Pepper Palace because she is half Mexican. When I get home on Saturday I call her, leaving a message, inviting her to come over for a movie and to have chips with the salsa and dip mix I got her. The next day I get a text "no I'm not coming over, nice try". I reply to her that it is pretty hard to take seriously that things are real with the ex-roommate, especially now that he lives in North Dakota, and now I'm thinking he has lived there ever since she broke up with me since he was planning to move there anyway. Plus she and I have been in contact again so much in the past couple weeks like she and I are a couple again. I tell her I'd really like her to be my Valentine or at least go somewhere with me for my birthday which is two days later. She gets exasperated and says, "No I can't be your Valentine, I will not be that person, I love my boyfriend!"

art...seriously? what did you think she'd say? another boundary ignored...and why are you disrespecting their relationship? would you be ok if she cheated on the man she loves for you?

and please note what i said get over her first before you befriend her. please. you left out the most important part when you requoted me: BEFORE. you need to heal! she's a constant trigger for you that will keep your head in the clouds. think of your heart, your needs, your feelings, none of which you've shown me here that she touches. you deserve someone who's not going to play with your heartstrings.

be strong,

wineaux

Thanks Wineaux, that was mostly all insightful input that I think was mostly on the mark and I appreciate your being more specific.

A couple things I don't agree with:

I don't agree that my concern about the lotion gift from another man is controlling behavior or flowers from an unknown source. That is a matter of boundaries that I was trying to clarify with her. So, as you said, that would make you run light years from me, but that is likely due to your condition/triggers...but it does help me understand her reaction to what, in my belief, is a matter of boundaries, not control or jealousy.

Second, you state that I was disrespecting her being in a relationship with another man, and i agree at times I waffled on that because I've been heartbroken. But, most times she would "rope me in" so to speak, and was not clear on the status with her boyfriend though I asked, and her behavior would indicate that she must not be "with" him anymore or sure of them. I always told her I did not feel I could just be her friend. So, if I started to not think it was serious, or maybe not a strong relationship, well, it is debatable if it is so wrong to want to win someone back, after all, I thought maybe she just had to try things with him and then see if maybe she preferred me after all, or is confused between us and therefore I have an opening. I see this as no different than a husband/wife separating, them dating others, but the husband tries to win back his wife before things progress too far with another.

So those are the main things I don't agree with you on, but I believe most everything else you said was very helpful.

A few comments more:

wineaux wrote:magnet for girls with daddy issues & pwHPD

I agree that she likely has some daddy issues...in fact, sometimes I wonder if she isn't looking for me to step up and be my better man because she needs that as an anchor. I'm not, after all, totally messed up, I'm a pretty stable guy and that is what likely drew her to me to begin with. So I have struggled within myself to not let her "get to me" and just stay steadfast with her. I have a therapist friend who told me that she likely gets disappointed in me when I lose my bearings with her.

I don't know what the "pw" in pwHPD means.

wineaux wrote: why are you so nice


this means either 2 things...she's either filling you with supply as HPDs are known to put those we are idealizing on a pedestal or she's being serious.

This term "filling with supply" is fascinating. Honestly, I don't know for sure. I mean, I'm sure she has good radar (consciously or subconsciously) for someone who is indeed nice, and I am. It is possible it is a little of both...supply and serious.

wineaux wrote: She said "I don't like it if you feel jealous!"


lie

Yeah. I can see this as both ways. That true, she doesn't like jealousy because of the fear of being controlled and abused, but also she does like knowing I may be jealous because it makes her feel cherished in a way.

Well, maybe I will reply a bit more to other things you wrote later, but feeling tired and need some sleep. Again, thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply. When first on this forum I felt a bit deflated due to reaction to my lengthy first post, when there are others on this forum who also write long posts and are now in the 100s of posts to boot.