Alters vs dissociated ego states...?

Here we are getting into questions of symptom vs disorder. I'll try to clarify.

Carico, these "not me" experiences you describe sound like normal ego states. DID and non-DID alike, we all have introjects of our parents and other significant others in our early lives, that manifest in us during moments of intense interaction with others. Good for you, in being aware that you are being triggered and a lot of your emotion and impulse toward action has nothing to do with the situation in the here and now. This is mindfulness in action.

It is a dissociated ego state when it happens as it were "behind your back". Someone with OSDD may have the experience of being taken over by, let's say, a rage state where they can sense the rage but they are not feeling it themselves. They may be feeling nothing at all. They may be not even in their body at the moment but somewhere else. Someone with DID may have the experience of losing time, and when they "come too" they hear from witnesses that they were in a rage or they feel in their body a telling residue of rage.

These experiences of dissociation can happen in moments of extreme stress to anyone, and this is considered normal, not a disorder. It is a major dissociative disorder, OSDD or DDNOS, only when such experiences of dissociation are recurrent and disruptive of normal daily life at home or work.

Una+

I really appreciate your clear and informed perspectives! It helps; you help, a lot. I have read quite a few streams where you offer such useful and compassionate advice and support. It means a lot!

Since, realizing this concept: 'dissociated ego states'; so much more has come through ..memories and this increased awareness of this separation within me: rational/emotional states.

I am pretty fluidly able to be expressive emotionally yet, there is still so much being "held at bay".

Just becoming more aware is already effecting change.

Thank you very much, carico

Carico wrote:When you,(was it) crackerjack, refer to activated vs unactivated alters, is this about the sort of "waking up" process ..when a person starts to realize these 'self-states" within them in the beginning …the 'selves' become "activated"??

Hi Carico ~ the answer would be no; you're referring to your own level of awareness (above).
Them becoming "activated" is about them going from a covert dissociated ego-state, to an overt/functional alter who is capable of taking executive control without you.

This was very confusing to me because I have "co-presence" with so many of my parts ~ but I am JUST NOW beginning to discern the difference between my fully activated parts, and my covert ego-states.

Oddly, the ones I recognize and am very AWARE of the most are the ones who are still ego-states; they are very easily triggered all the time, very raw emotions, very close beneath the surface, to where I do feel the rage or hopelessness or whatever emotion... VERY strongly!
I also have been very triggered into rage-states by my children, much like you describe...
and am also VERY badly triggered into some very hateful fury by my cat... the kitty I used to adore.

I know NOW that most of my ego states were dormant for most of my child-bearing years; I had two parts that were overt/activated and functional through those years, although I myself was never aware of losing time, etc, as they only stepped in when they were triggered (not by their own free-will or choice), and they always pretended to be me and never used their own names when they were out.

Then a crisis in my life brought all the others out of dormancy (but still inactivated), though I did not know it at the time, and I got diagnosed Bipolar I. Two years and another major crisis later, I started finding my parts (goodbye, Bipolar, hello DID)...
The one part I first established partial communication with is my Internal Self-helper, and she knows all the answers to what is happening with all my other parts... so in a way she is like having a "cheat-sheet" to my whole system. I'm usually able to find out what's going on, even with the parts I don't have any connection to yet.
So, It has taken me well over a year to finally find the right words and definitions, etc, for my ISH to be able to say "yes, THAT ~ that's what's going on in here."
She says that although they came out of dormancy, not all of my parts have been "activated." All of the ones from my original trauma are still inactivated, and still getting over-filled with new re-traumatization. She's encouraging me to get one of my Apparently Normal Parts activated before any of the trauma-holding parts, because then that part can pop "in" and take over if another part gets scared or needs help or something.

Most importantly, she says I will no longer be so strongly affected/overwhelmed by the constant roller-coaster of emotions I feel from the inactivated ego-states. Once they're activated, they'll be more "separate" from me, so they won't be so vulnerable to every environmental trigger (noises and certain words, etc, are big triggers for me). So it sounds to me like it's more "protective," both for the insiders and for me. I'll no longer be constantly flooded by their overpowering emotions when they are no longer constantly co-present with me... I guess that makes perfect sense.

MY Therapist says I need to do some more "ego-strengthening" stuff before getting everyone activated... like, making sure there is an Inner Safe Place for all the parts and everything. Then I'll try writing letters and focusing on one part at a time to see if I can get them activated that way... and then I think there may be either some hypnosis or EMDR or something as part of the ego-strengthening. I'll know more after me next appointment, in 5 days. We're just barely delving into this whole "ego-strengthening" stuff... I'm just now starting to learn about it.

Wow, thank you, crackerjack, for this clarification and insight:

[i["Hi Carico ~ the answer would be no; you're referring to your own level of awareness (above).
Them becoming "activated" is about them going from a covert dissociated ego-state, to an overt/functional alter who is capable of taking executive control without you.

This was very confusing to me because I have "co-presence" with so many of my parts ~ but I am JUST NOW beginning to discern the difference between my fully activated parts, and my covert ego-states.

Oddly, the ones I recognize and am very AWARE of the most are the ones who are still ego-states; they are very easily triggered all the time, very raw emotions, very close beneath the surface, to where I do feel the rage or hopelessness or whatever emotion... VERY strongly! [/i]

All you wrote is so interesting and helpful in terms of my understanding all these amazing layers and beginning to sort things out!

Sounds like you are doing some great, truly in~depth work!!

Interesting to be more aware of the 'ego states' than the overt 'alters'.
Wonder why this would be true?
Does it have to do with the idea, as you say, of "once they become activated they are more 'separate" ..from your direct experiences?? Like when something is too close it is harder to see it for what it is?

~carico

Carico wrote:Interesting to be more aware of the 'ego states' than the overt 'alters'.
Wonder why this would be true?

By definition, alters are dissociated ego states. Dissociation is a disruption of awareness. The disruption, the dissociation, can be more or less complete.

Carico wrote:Interesting to be more aware of the 'ego states' than the overt 'alters'.
Wonder why this would be true?
Does it have to do with the idea, as you say, of "once they become activated they are more 'separate" ..from your direct experiences?? Like when something is too close it is harder to see it for what it is?

What you said here is my best guess, too!
The ones who are able to come out seem so "separate" I'm not even really aware of them, other than knowing "of" them... and weird little "lost times."
But the inactivated ego-states... omg... it took YEARS to figure out that my "rapid cycling Bipolar" was actually my covert dissociated ego-states going through their daily rotation with me (my system just does that, every hour one the hour, I don't know why). But I started becoming aware of certain patterns within the violently shifting moods, and using words or phrase like "the Scorned Child" and "the Firey Redhead" (although I'm a brunette). Then I found my Internal Self-helper alter, and that's pretty much how I found out I have DID.

What has been SUCH a struggle for me, is trying to understand why the other 17 parts are soooooo deeply covert. At first I thought it had to do with the death threats I had received...
But it turns out, it had to do with my System Manager being a Introject of my Narcissistic-Mother ~ my own internal part was keeping me from knowing about my inner-selves in the same way my actual mother lied, manipulated, and covered up the truth... and she was also preventing the Others from becoming "activated." She kept my inside parts all under her control, all these years, while I was struggling to understand what made my DID so different from everybody else's DID...

Now the Introjected Mother part has has finally returned to her true inner-identity. I don't know the words for it, but she is the 10th one in my system to undergo the metamorphosis to her True Identity ~ just like all my angry male alters and animal alters turned out to be little girls at their core, and they all changed last year... but I wonder if they can only "change" like that if they're an "inactivated" ego-state?

I can't even explain what activation means, or how it works... I'm just learning about it from this workbook, and discussing it with my Therapist, and he seems thrilled that I'm asking about it. I'm just delving into ego-strengthening techniques before working on getting these parts activated, so I can (hopefully) get out of crisis and move on with my life.
It's called "Empowering the Self Through Ego-State Therapy": It's like, my DID-bible right now...
http://reversingchronicpain.com/Empower ... _ebook.pdf

Well now that's confusing. A moderator has changed the subject heading, inserting the word "dissociated"; the original heading was "Alters vs ego states...?" The current heading "Alters vs dissociated ego states...?" is confusing because, as we explain in this thread, alters are dissociated ego states.

Una+ wrote:Well now that's confusing. A moderator has changed the subject heading, inserting the word "dissociated"; the original heading was "Alters vs ego states...?" The current heading "Alters vs dissociated ego states...?" is confusing because, as we explain in this thread, alters are dissociated ego states.

Yes ~ alters are dissociated ego states...

But "normal" (or "non-dissociated") people also develop their personality through normal, non-dissociated ego-states, too...

In other words, normal people have multiple ego-states that are not dissociated (so in a sense, normal people are multiple, too.)

So ~ there needs to be a distinction on whether we are talking about "dissociated" or "associated" ego-states.

Furthermore, dissociated ego-states can either be conscious, or less conscious... I'll post a quote...

"Conscious and Less Conscious States
Ego states are separated from each other by varying degrees of dissociation. Within a given individual, there are “surface” states that are known to the core self. This type of ego state most frequently assumes “executive” roles in typical personality functioning. Conscious or surface states are relatively consciously connected to each other, communicate with each other, and tend to work in a cooperative fashion. There are few conflicts or other barriers between these states and shared memory function among them is relatively intact. Examples of more conscious states include those related to daily roles such as parenting, working, cooking, and conducting relationships.
Less conscious, more unconscious, or “underlying” ego states demonstrate more dissociative distance from other states. The range of communication and connection varies widely. Some states are so split off from the whole personality that they are virtually unknown. These highly dissociated states tend to take charge of functioning without permission or knowledge of the core self." (taken from "Empowering the Self Through Ego-State Therapy") http://reversingchronicpain.com/EmpoweringSelfEgoStateTherapy/EST_ebook.pdf

The section I have underlined is what I suffer from the most, and am trying to resolve through ego-strengthening and ego-state activation.

crackerjack wrote:"Conscious and Less Conscious States
Ego states are separated from each other by varying degrees of dissociation. Within a given individual, there are “surface” states that are known to the core self. This type of ego state most frequently assumes “executive” roles in typical personality functioning. Conscious or surface states are relatively consciously connected to each other, communicate with each other, and tend to work in a cooperative fashion. There are few conflicts or other barriers between these states and shared memory function among them is relatively intact. Examples of more conscious states include those related to daily roles such as parenting, working, cooking, and conducting relationships.
Less conscious, more unconscious, or “underlying” ego states demonstrate more dissociative distance from other states. The range of communication and connection varies widely. Some states are so split off from the whole personality that they are virtually unknown. These highly dissociated states tend to take charge of functioning without permission or knowledge of the core self."

So, the former would be like myself and Shade, "talkative" and regularly frontwards and present; while the latter would be more like Void or Fae, who do not front and rarely communicate?

Noppera-bo wrote:So, the former would be like myself and Shade, "talkative" and regularly frontwards and present; while the latter would be more like Void or Fae, who do not front and rarely communicate?

I don't want to speak for your system, but if this "sits well" with you and makes sense to you, it may be the case!

I have BIG NEWS though!!!

Ever since my Narcissistic Mother Introject stepped down from her "reign of terror" (lol) and now that Gayla is in charge of the system... EVERYTHING has changed for me!!!

My body has CALMED DOWN, the PTSD is only a fraction of what it used to be, and I am no longer suffering violently shifting moods all-day-every-day!

I mean ~ the difference is absolutely AMAZING ~ I'm going to start a new thread about it right now...