Alters vs dissociated ego states...?

I mostly agree with boopsy...

Different perspectives, different terms.

BUT, as I've read a lot, there is also the term "fragment", which can be quite a specific thing, holding just some feeling etc.
These things are hard to give specific terminology, as every system is unique. Giving terms is just trying to make some kind of psychological sense, mostly for people who don't have this disorder, and are trying to treat patients.

I, as a patient, also like to read books/articles and try to get some theoretical grasp of things. It helps me. But it may not help everyone.

I agree that alters are ego states. I do not agree that ego states are alters. Ego states are not all dissociated, and dissociated ego states are not all autonomous and capable of taking executive control. It is this last, most elaborated class of ego state that many of us recognize as alternate identities, because that is how they are experienced by us and by other people who are alerted to them.

Taking executive control is a behavior, not a state of being, and it is a behavior that is more or less transient. This is what makes diagnosis of DID so difficult under DSM-4, and this is not even in line with general criteria for diagnosis laid out in DSM. DSM-5 would relax the requirement, in effect treating DID and DDNOS-1 as one and the same.

My work on what an alter is certainly needs updating. I went and read it and I need to work on it, so I won't bring that page up. but... recently I have been working on what dissociation is. That might bring light to this subject. Again, like all my pages, this is a work in progress. I still have so much to learn and am open to suggestions.

http://dx-dissociative-identity-disorde ... ation.html

I will start with what so many (me too) have read and have been led to believe.
M. Steinberg and M. Schnall in their 2001 book: The Stranger in the Mirror - Dissociation - The Hidden Epidemic begin the first part of their book with a chapter titled: Dissociation - What it is and what it is not, stating that it is not intense absorption, imaginative involvement or highway hypnosis. (p. 12) The authors explain that these "normal" occurrences of spacing out are not the same as those who actually have a dissociative disorder.

"Empty Memories" explains - "In the '80 one still thought that light forms of dissociation (f.i. highway trance) and severe forms of pathological dissociation processes existed on a continuum. But not anymore because they are different processes. Cause by the former so called normal dissociation, the ego (or ego-state) stays intact, which is not the case by dissociation.

Daydreaming, trance like states and highway trance, are not dissociation

Also ego-states (f.i. acting differently at work than at home or country house) is not dissociation, but is a part of normal human psyche. So there are numerous examples where the word 'dissociation' is misused or used in the wrong context.

http://www.empty-memories.nl/disspectrumE.html

I'm posting on this 5-year-old thread today because I'm searching for info.

If I understand correctly:

* An ego-state may or may not be dissociated;
however, a dissociated ego-state is basically an alter that has not yet been "activated."
Once activated, the dissociated ego-state becomes an active "alter."

* While still an ego-state, they are "covert" and often co-present ~ once activated they are "overt" and can assume executive control.

* While still an ego-state, these parts can still form new memories, and "new trauma" can still be "added" for them to contain.

* Once activated, they no longer get filled with new traumas... and there is an "end point" to their memories.

Does this sound correct? Can anyone add any insight to this for me?

I just discovered that most of my parts are not yet activated, and that's why I'm such a hot mess, with all these emotions and reactions getting triggered out of control, all the time, for 4½ years now, ever since they all came out of dormancy.

My ISH (who I have very little comms with), is encouraging me to get them activated as soon as possible. Apparently, as some of my parts are getting triggered, my RESPONSE/REACTIONS have been causing major retraumatization to my OTHER parts.

Apparently, getting my ego-states activated can actually be "PROTECTIVE" for them...?
Does this sound right??? Does anybody know

Thank you so much for this thread!

Johnny-Jack wrote:Some alters do feel much more like ego states sometimes. Quato has always influenced me more that taken over and Jonathan pops out and does things so subtly I can assume for quite a while that I'm out when he really is. Some of those times, he's not even sure he's out although he is.

I feel this way a lot, and am starting to be more aware of others because normally unless its an overt takeover and I'm being pushed aside I don't always know, which of course is confusing (like, if you have alters don't you KNOW? How could you not KNOW? ..Must be faking etc).

Anyways, thanks again. This was really helpful!

It's so confusing, right?

I try to read about it, and the information is either really vague and doesn't explain much... or it's totally over my head and I don't even understand it.

Someone else told me that an ego-state can get activated, but then go "inactivated" again...

I still don't fully understand, and would welcome more clarity.

There does seem to be a lot to look into on this.I don't think ego stats are undeveloped alters who stop growing/holding new memories once activated bc some people claim their alters aged with time and changed opinions against their will by taking over and living life and growing like other people. I definitely need to do more research but from what I read prior to seeing that post ego states are how you feel different when talking to your mom and fighting with brothers and sisters as an adult vs when you are running a meeting at work. You're in a different mindset so you feel different. I view DID alters as being an effect of neural patways developed differently as a young traumatized child which causes portions of your brain to be activated in a way others wouldn't causing memory splits and subsequent personality changes by you are still functioning during that time you just have split section unattainable to your conscious. Kind of like you're subconscious but not. Those sections lighting up all across your brain mimick how they are when you are a singleton it's just perhaps slightly different bc of different pathways. Everyone has different neural pathways, even singletons and that could be how you have an alter who is girly and one who is a tomboy. We just have more sets or a different structure in our brains causing these pathways to form the way they do causing amnesia and shutting out memories and personalities of the whole so that we can have multiple. I think we can (some DID people not all) communicate through thoughts or images much like how singletons think except our pathways can go back and forth and cross so that we hear our own thoughts/selVES responding and commenting and also sharing memories between alters from times when the host was amnesiac. This is a kind of exciting topic. I've been obsessed with how the brain works since I was a small child but don't really know much sadly.

Hi Cay cay!
Yes, you are right about the pathways and all, being developed in childhood... and even "normal" (non-dissociative) people have many ego-states ~ exactly like you said:

Cay cay wrote:ego states are how you feel different when talking to your mom and fighting with brothers and sisters as an adult vs when you are running a meeting at work. You're in a different mindset so you feel different.

These (above) are ego-states that are "associated" with each other, and working cooperatively.
~ BUT ~
There are also "DISSOCIATED ego-states", and those are the ones I was describing before.
Most people with DID have had "Covert" dissociated ego-states before they were "activated" into "Overt" Alters... which are as you described:

Cay cay wrote:some people claim their alters aged with time and changed opinions against their will by taking over and living life and growing like other people.

If they are alters, that means they became activated on their own, at some point in your life.
If they're dissociated ego-states, they haven't been activated yet, or have become inactivated again.
If they are associated ego-states... then that's not DID at all, that's "ordinary," lol!

Cay cay wrote:This is a kind of exciting topic. I've been obsessed with how the brain works since I was a small child but don't really know much sadly.

I know, right??? I wasn't so interested as a child, but am definitely fascinated now! BTW, do you have any brain parts/alters? I have three ~ we call them "The Brain-Gang:" they're Hippocampus, Spirit, and Gayle, who is our Gatekeeper/System Manager ~ and I just (FINALLY) figured out, she is represented by the function of my entire Limbic System! Hippocampus is literally the shape of my hippocampus (like a seahorse), but as I "see" her, she is also a beautiful brunette woman with hazel eyes! Spirit has curly red hair and she is... well, she's my spirit. (I happen to be a NDE survivor from a car crash 22 years ago ~ I flat-lined on the operating table, and she holds all my memories of meeting with 6 of my relatives in the Spiritual Realm, and also she walked through the hospital and saw my mom in the waiting room and everything... there are also memories of past lives held within her, but I don't look at them yet. I can remember the 6 relatives and a few other glimpses, but these memories are deeper away from me (like the other trauma stuff). If I try to meditate about it, I just end up going inside, where there is much more prevalent issues in my life right now!

Awesome post cay cay. Too distracted right now to say more than thank you.

Hello,

Coming across this concept of 'dissociated ego states" kinda stirs things up for me and maybe speaks to some experiences I have had in recent years ~with my self.

I am a SO to a man with DID and began this rather intense journey of learning about *'multiply oriented or ordered personalities" about 2 years ago.

(*He and I have been referring to DID like this cuz so many of the clinical terms seem limiting and even undervaluing of peoples actual amazingness and experience of themselves.)

I started off thinking I was learning about all this to better support and understand Him; only to find myself uncovering deeper layers of my own experience.

I am curious what folks experience when they first start recognizing they have distinct and self-identifiable 'aspects' of themselves? (my partner and I have been calling 'alters'; 'aspects')

When you,(was it) crackerjack, refer to activated vs unactivated alters, is this about the sort of "waking up" process ..when a person starts to realize these 'self-states" within them in the beginning …the 'selves' become "activated"??

Just trying to figure this out also and how it may apply to my deal.
My partner is very definitely multiple.

But what I have experienced is less distinct and clear.
An example:
For a period of time (several years), when my son was @5-10yrs old …some everyday frustration in interactions with him would set me off. I would just flash on being irritable and then like Whamo!, a real sense of Intense Emotion would take me over and I would be raging mad and I couldn't stop it. It was literally like some other person stepped in and would throw this full blown tantrum and I just had to wait it out. At first, I thought I was seriously losing it. But then after a few times of this, I would be aware that it was actually not "me" throwing the fit. I would be able to just watch from a totally rational, calm state. I would even say to my son, "hey, just stay back, this isn't about you ..or me exactly. Give me space until it rolls thru." This type of thing. And would just go outside with my feet on the earth and breath and do my best to let it roll through me.
This particular thing hasn't occurred in years. Partly because I learned to feel it coming and would ground and breath it thru.

Another example, more recently, I was having a fairly discordant texting exchange with my partner and was becoming a bit frustrated but handling my end of the communication calmly, being careful of my words, so as to be respectful of the different aspects of him popping thru via text and having their say about recent events; when Suddenly, like literally before I could stop myself; I text .."whatever" and had this flash of real bratty, passive-aggressive emotion.
And this really felt "separate" from me. Like someone slipped in real quick and popped that text thru.

Do you guys think this could be dissociated ego states? or does it sound more like actual 'alters" ?

I am brave and you can tell me honestly anything you think about it. Thank you!

~carico