Alters as representations

tylas wrote:I think we all understand this, but the way it's worded might offend some. I don't get the offense myself, but it's the way Professionals do speak.

It is now recognized that these dissociated states are not fully-formed personalities, but rather represent a fragmented sense of identity.

... That offended me far more than the professor's questions did... And I get it, I get it. People don't want to believe multiple people can live in one body. Personalities are just a social construct anyway, ect, ect.
~Rage

But scientifically, aren't personalities just certain nuerological pathways typical to said person? If each alter has seperate neurological pathway patterns, that should mean that, by all means, we're like different people. Yes, we share a brain. But the brain has infinite possibilities within it. It is well within the realm of possibility for it to be discovered that alters are formed in the way a newborn child might. They may form their own likes, dislikes, opinion. As their pathways become more and more consistant, would they not become like people?

Simply a speculation, of course. But worth consideration, do you not think?

Do not get me wrong. I am not trying to start a debate, and perhaps this thread is not the correct one in which to bring these points up. But it was said that the original poster wanted arguments for their professor, correct? And this is what I believe. Granted, until a while ago, I myself was not sure that we existed. But evidence is leaning towards us being seperate people, in the sense being that a person is a set of habbits which cause them to differ from other humans with the basic genetic programming.

If you believe you have evidence to the countrary, please, do share. I would appreciate having as full a range of information as possible. A conclusion cannot be reached when evidence is missing. Of course, with the various elements being tested in each experiment, it can never reach a true theory. But in the meantime, any sort of general hypothesis would be nice.
~Amy

Well said as usual Una!

In systems where more than one alter has held executive control for years, those alters may be very complex and rich personalities. In my system, I am the only alter who has held much executive control, and the other alters seem quite limited. Their life experiences are not as broad as mine and none of them has a very wide range of emotions. Their emotions are intense, but not very complex. The thing is, I don't feel that I am a complete personality either. Compared to other people I know well, I see myself as quite limited too. And now that I have begun integrating with other alters I am growing more complex than I was before.

So I think the experts are correct. On the other hand, so what? If a DID system chooses to remain a multiple, how is that bad? I am pro-choice. For myself, I choose integration, but above all I choose freedom of choice.

Again you say it so well!
Your words sooth my Savage Beast

bourbon wrote:Over and over and over again, my professional and I will debate this subject. Within it all I've lost what he is trying to say, and I've lost what I am trying to say. All I know is I'm trying to stop the invalidation, stop the belitting because as experienced today, the family gets very aggressive if they feel disbelieved.

2 points he makes:

1.) All alters are representations of someone - if not yourself, then your abusers, your siblings... whoever.

2.) All alters likes/dislikes and styles are YOUR wishes/desires/likes/dislikes.

Perhaps he does not mean it to sound as black & white as this - but that is how we have taken it. The alters aren't real people. They are just experiences.

For this reason the appointment with him today has upset the system a great deal.

Do you think he has a point?

What do you think of his theories?

Bourbon

I don't think he is belittling. He simply has a scientific sort of mind and sees things that way. You are compassionate and see things your own way.

Work on getting your family to feel as one. To enjoy being a part of you and you enjoy being a part of them. Of course they have their own way of being, thinking, etc... but at the same time they are a part of you and you are a part of them.

It's all in how you want to think about it. I don't think either of you is right or is wrong actually.

Thank you, everyone, for helping to explain his point of view. I understand it now - I guess the way he was talking about it - to me and to Poppi just wasn't working. But I get it now.

Thank you all.

Demon Lilith wrote:But scientifically, aren't personalities just certain nuerological pathways typical to said person? If each alter has seperate neurological pathway patterns, that should mean that, by all means, we're like different people. Yes, we share a brain. But the brain has infinite possibilities within it. It is well within the realm of possibility for it to be discovered that alters are formed in the way a newborn child might. They may form their own likes, dislikes, opinion. As their pathways become more and more consistant, would they not become like people?

On a scientific note(and I'm not debating either, this just looks interesting and does seem worth speculating) they are indeed LIKE separate people, but nothing can actually make them separate. The subconscious influences the conscious in unimaginable and infinite ways, and vice versa. This is not possible with, say, your best friend. Obviously you may influence each other, but not nearly to the extent that your alters are able to. Now, this does not mean that your alters actually DO influence each other. But integration is proof of that possibility. And you can not integrate with your best friend. That is unless you are Jean Gray or Professor X

And as far as neurological pathway patterns go, everyone has different pathway patterns. An introvert utilizes one pathway more than an extrovert does, because they utilize different nuerotransmitters more often. When you are angry, chemicals in the brain are fired up, lighting up separate pathways that do not usually get lit up. The difference with DID is that there is no full cohesion when this process occurrs. After a normal person stops being angry, they are capable of integrating that experience into their life via both memory of emotion and narrative memory of the event, one or both of which are absent for a DIDer.

dividedtruth89 wrote:On a scientific note(and I'm not debating either, this just looks interesting and does seem worth speculating) they are indeed LIKE separate people, but nothing can actually make them separate. The subconscious influences the conscious in unimaginable and infinite ways, and vice versa. This is not possible with, say, your best friend. Obviously you may influence each other, but not nearly to the extent that your alters are able to. Now, this does not mean that your alters actually DO influence each other. But integration is proof of that possibility. And you can not integrate with your best friend. That is unless you are Jean Gray or Professor X

Ah, no, the body and brain are definitely the same for all of them. But the differences even just a few new horomones in the brain in the brain can make is astounding. I do certainly think that while alters may not be entirely seperate people, they are close, at least in some systems. Of course, as Una said, the more often these alters are used, the more developed they become. The more these patterns of pathways are used, the more they become unique to the individual alter, and the more that alter becomes a true person.

The subconsious is simply the brain on a level we cannot knowingly control. If the pathways are different, this should, by all means, affect the subconsious as well.

Integration seems like when the body learns to use multiple pathways of seperate alters all at one time. But traits are lost along the way, as not all of those patterns can be kept. The brain would be overloaded. On the other hand, yes, many traits would be gained that could only before be accessed in certain patterns.

And as far as neurological pathway patterns go, everyone has different pathway patterns. An introvert utilizes one pathway more than an extrovert does, because they utilize different nuerotransmitters more often. When you are angry, chemicals in the brain are fired up, lighting up separate pathways that do not usually get lit up. The difference with DID is that there is no full cohesion when this process occurrs. After a normal person stops being angry, they are capable of integrating that experience into their life via both memory of emotion and narrative memory of the event, one or both of which are absent for a DIDer.

Ah, but there is. For more devloped alters, they have enough pathways to retain the complete experience in their own personal area of the memory. What's fascinating is that, with coconsiousness, different alters can retain different perceptions of the same event with as much complexity as some integrated people could! Of course, this would not apply to more fragmented alters who only have a few ways to access the memory. As I said, it does depend quite a bit on how much time an alter is given to develop in the world.

I do hope you have more points to bring up, I quite enjoy exploring this.
~Amy

bourbon wrote:Thank you, everyone, for helping to explain his point of view. I understand it now - I guess the way he was talking about it - to me and to Poppi just wasn't working. But I get it now.

Thank you all.

Keep in mind that parts of you were made for that purpose. To deny these sorts of things. Try to be open minded and listen to what he has to say and work with those parts of you and help them to listen.

dividedtruth89 wrote:And as far as neurological pathway patterns go, everyone has different pathway patterns. An introvert utilizes one pathway more than an extrovert does, because they utilize different nuerotransmitters more often. When you are angry, chemicals in the brain are fired up, lighting up separate pathways that do not usually get lit up. The difference with DID is that there is no full cohesion when this process occurs. After a normal person stops being angry, they are capable of integrating that experience into their life via both memory of emotion and narrative memory of the event, one or both of which are absent for a DIDer.

You might find this interesting from the ISST-D
"It is now recognized that these dissociated states are not fully-formed personalities, but rather represent a fragmented sense of identity. The amnesia typically associated with Dissociative Identity Disorder is asymmetrical, with different identity states (alters) remembering different aspects of autobiographical information."
ISST-D.org





Here is the full statement for those interested:
Dissociative Identity Disorder (previously known as Multiple Personality Disorder) is the most severe and chronic manifestation of dissociation, characterized by the presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states that recurrently take control of the individual’s behavior, accompanied by an inability to recall important personal information that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness. It is now recognized that these dissociated states are not fully-formed personalities, but rather represent a fragmented sense of identity. The amnesia typically associated with Dissociative Identity Disorder is asymmetrical, with different identity states remembering different aspects of autobiographical information. There is usually a host personality who identifies with the client’s real name. Typically, the host personality is not aware of the presence of other alters (American Psychiatric Association, 2000; Fine, 1999; Frey, 2001; Kluft, 1999; Kluft, Steinberg & Spitzer, 1988; Maldonado et al., 2002; Spiegel & Cardeña, 1991; Steinberg et al., 1993). The different personalities may serve distinct roles in coping with problem areas. An average of 2 to 4 personalities/alters are present at diagnosis, with an average of 13 to 15 personalities emerging over the course of treatment (Coons, Bowman & Milstein, 1988; Maldonado et al., 2002). Environmental events usually trigger a sudden shifting from one personality to another (Maldonado et al., 2002).

http://www.isst-d.org/education/faq-dissociation.htm

Tylas, you already posted that exact info in this thread. It's on the first page.
~Rage