Persecutor's Unacceptable Behavior (Trigger Warning)

(We posted this elsewhere online.)

Just a general comment, because we've been looking for an opportunity to discuss this topic. We'd appreciate any thoughts on how we might resolve our own situation.

We have a persecutor who does not place us in danger or harm the body physically. Yet this person berates us, sends us disturbing statements and images internally, deliberately and with no regard for anything but self interest.

People in the online multiple community talk about showing such system members kindness, respect, gratitude....This person has no remorse. Each of us is responsible for our actions. Having protected the system in the past is no excuse for abusive behavior.

Are persecutors responsible for their current behavior? Yes. Should others in the system excuse said behavior? No.

Something to think about.

Treating persecutors with kindness may be appropriate in some circumstances. But kindness is not necessarily the answer for someone who's acting abusively and has no remorse. The only difference for an internal abuser and an external one is that we share a body with the former.

It's all about boundaries and about what's acceptable and not acceptable. The fact that someone (in system or other-bodied) was hurt before, even repeatedly and severely, is no excuse for abusing others.

MDs

MakersDozn wrote:this person berates us, sends us disturbing statements and images internally, deliberately and with no regard for anything but self interest...

What is their self-interest in this? How does this behavior benefit them? It seems like it would be very important to understand what purpose their behavior serves for them, and in what way they think it serves the system as a whole? (From what you've said, I assume that it did help the system at some point in the past and was absolutely necessary at that point in time.)

Do they feel that it is still needed, and if so, why? Or do they feel unappreciated for their vital role in protecting the system in the past and are angry about that? (I'm just throwing out ideas, and you may have tried all of these approaches...)

MakersDozn wrote:...Treating persecutors with kindness may be appropriate in some circumstances. But kindness is not necessarily the answer for someone who's acting abusively and has no remorse. The only difference for an internal abuser and an external one is that we share a body with the former.

It's all about boundaries and about what's acceptable and not acceptable. The fact that someone (in system or other-bodied) was hurt before, even repeatedly and severely, is no excuse for abusing others.

MDs

It sounds like that part is in a lot of pain and needs help, and that they hold a lot of anger for the system, with no outlet except to express it toward the rest of you. To call them an internal abuser on a par with an external abuser seems like a way to distance yourselves from them and isolate them and their "bad behavior."

What does your therapist say about them? Have they spoken with her and provided any insight into their behavior and feelings?

It sounds like a difficult situation to have to live with, for all of you.

Thanks for responding, Gang.

Since killing the body is not an option, the insider in question's next preference would be to eliminate all of the rest of us (which we know is also not possible). This insider sees everything from a binary perspective: Self against the world, everything and everyone else is a threat to self and must be eliminated. Finally, the wish is to disappear completely, which continues the unhealthy thought loop and the abusive behavior.

Yes, this person is in pain. But we stand by our assertion that the behavior has crossed the line consistently into the realm of abuse, and that we should neither tolerate it nor accept it. This person has as much an obligation to treat us respectfully as we do in return.

MDs

PS: Yes, our therapist has spoken a few times with this person. It hasn't changed things.

Hi MDs

I kind of feel the same as you. If you have an abusive part why would it be tolerated? An outside abuser can't be tolerated so why an internal one?

For me it always came out in destructive outside behaviour and self sabotage. Alters were always sabotaging eachother trying to get different needs met.

Also have this "wishing to disappear" which I know stems from the first thought of "I wish I could just disappear" as a very young child because the abuse was too much. Effectively that's what happened, parts were kept healthy by disappearing and other parts dealt with the abuse.

So the wishing to disappear could, like the dissociation be an outdated coping mechanism that is ingrained in a loop this part is still living out? Abuse, harm and hurt others, make them disappear, disappear themselves.

How to break this loop? I don't know. How do you compassionately make this abusive alter stop? Maybe by letting it know disappearing is unnecessary now because there is no outside threat?

I don't know but I wanted to let you know I see it kind of how you see it, can't tolerate abusive destructive behaviour internally or externally.

Much Luck,

Sarah

MakersDozn wrote:Yes, this person is in pain. But we stand by our assertion that the behavior has crossed the line consistently into the realm of abuse, and that we should neither tolerate it nor accept it. This person has as much an obligation to treat us respectfully as we do in return.

MDs

I don't know. You can't force them to change their behavior, and you guys are all part of the same inseparable community, so saying you won't tolerate it or accept it is basically meaningless, isn't it?

What kind of threat does everything and everyone else pose to them? Clearly not the threat of eliminating them, since that's what they want. What is the bad thing that might happen?

Is there anything that they like? To do, or to eat, or any activity at all that even slightly relieves their pain? You may want to start with that.

I wonder if they're very young? That kind of binary thinking suggests that. If so, that might help the rest of you feel less hostile toward them, and maybe loosen the standoff that's going on. Just an idea.

Thank you, Sarandipity. I appreciate the validation of abuse not being tolerable.

Gang....I/Charity decided to take a deep breath last night to calm down and sit with my anger. Thank you for being patient while I contemplate all of this.

Clearly, one of my individual core issues is attachment, and this is the lens through which I see and experience everything. So when I get stuck in a trigger loop and refuse to self-regulate, I perpetuate my own pain.

I don't like acknowledging this; I'd rather blame a perceived authority/power figure, an Other with a capital O. I'd rather perpetuate my own helplessness, because I'm stuck in denial about not being able to change the past. I'm stuck in magical thinking that if I wait long enough, someone will rescue me and take care of me, and I'll have the pain-free, happy childhood that we each deserve.

All attachment-related. And all patterned after our mother (may she rot in hell--Rachel), who lived the same dysfunctional pattern and passed it down to us.

There are a lot of side issues that come into play, but the bottom line is that the conflict is now between me and Rachel, and for whatever it's worth, it affects the whole system on an ongoing basis and perpetuates destabilization. Yes, Rachel is doing and saying unacceptable things. But the real weight that this carries is not that she would actually endanger us, but that she generates fear of what could happen if we allow her behavior to remain unchecked.

The first step for me in stopping this fear pattern is to name names. The next step for me is to clean my own house, metaphorically speaking. And this includes learning new, healthier patterns and putting them into practice.

Thanks to Mary, Allegra, and shawn for standing by me through all of this.

Charity

I am not the problem. The mother and the grandmother (may they rot in the deepest realm of hell together, since they deserve each other) are the problem. Were. Are. What-the-f***-ever.

My thoughts, opinions, and perspective are my own. If others in here absorb them and blame it on passive influence, that's their problem. It's the nature of being stuck here together.

I hate this life. I hate being one of many and wish every day that we had never been born. But I am not an abuser.

Rachel

I think there's a difference between showing kindness, compassion and acceptance, and accepting everything.

You can show compassion and acceptance for alters and their feelings, yet set boundaries for the way they express/act those feelings.

Our own persecutor was really hard to deal with, and finding balance between compassion and what was okay to accept wasn't easy. Working with him taught me how to make the difference between the individual and their behaviors ; unlike what our abuser taught us, you can feel compassion, and even love, for the individual, yet it doesn't mean you have to accept all of their behaviors. Love, compassion and understanding doesn't mean accepting everything. You have the right to say "stop" or "no" when someone cross your boundaries, and it doesn't mean you don't empathize with them. It just means you have your own limits, and yes, they should respect them.

For each unacceptable behavior Claude had, I had to dig and find the core reason why he was acting like that (which he often didn't really know himself), then reassure him and talk about other ways to express those feelings. At the beginning, I had to talk kind of the same way as him to be heard, like :

"Okay, I get it, you're scared, so I will not do this/not do this again. But you know, that's not really smart to trigger a panic attack or a flashback into another alter. You could have talked to me instead."

And he would just laugh, or told me I was stupid
But slowly, he saw that I meant it, and that everyone inside agreed with me. If anyone inside is scared or angry, they can talk and it will not be used against them. And I think it's something important in the healing process of persecutors : if there's one alter who's not ready to make efforts and to follow the others in order to have a common way to deal with them, it will not work, or be harder than it should.

But I totally get that having everyone acting the same way isn't easy. It took some time to us too, but all of our system slowly stopped being angry or resentful toward Claude and began to act the same. When he was harassing another one (usually Kal), instead of yelling at him or running away to hide, this other alter would come to me, so I could deal with him (each time with "You feel this and I understand why, it's okay to feel that way and I can try to do this to help you, but it's not okay to act like that, you could have done this instead").

Once or twice, he triggered another one just to see our reaction. The last time he did that, I lost it and went angry, telling him he was stupid to act this way because the system was the only thing he had left, we were the last ones caring about him. At the moment, he told me he didn't care, but now he admits it was the first time he realized that I really, really meant it and it scared him to think I was telling the truth ; that he wasn't alone against the world like he thought, and that I would never tolerate his destructive behaviors, not even against himself, because I cared about him. It was the first time he felt that someone could really care about him.
He never tried to trigger anyone again after that.

As Claude saw that the boundaries were coherent and consistent, he finally become tired to be seen as the unstable one every time he acted, so he started try to calm down and to follow my suggestions.

When he saw that no one was making fun of him for doing so, when he saw it worked better than his previous ways, when he saw my suggestion and rules weren't unsafe like he expected, when he saw he still could be himself and deal with toxic people (our family) the way he wants if he waits for our approval (right now, he almost stopped to ask, he totally trusts Daem to deals with them), and after a specific event which proved to him we were ready to protect him just like we would protect anyone else inside, the system became a synonym of safety and support for him, and he started to want to change and to make efforts too.

I don't need to use negative critics like "it's not smart to..." anymore with him as it would be totally destructive now he sees me as a mother figure. I just have to tell him to stop, and most of the time, he will listen. Sometimes, he tries to argue, but it's less and less common.
He still doesn't really believe he has our support, and he's so scared of loosing it, he freaks out every time he is triggered and breaks the rules I've set, even when he is right to do so.

But after becoming aware of his presence and finally finding the courage to deal with him (which took us years), it took us again two years of hard work to reach that point. We even had times when we thought we would never make any progress with him, but he totally surprised us - in a good, very good way.

All of this to say I agree, you don't have to accept the unacceptable, but that doesn't mean you can't show empathy or kindness. And yep, it's not that easy to learn to do both as, usually, no one taught us ; most of the time, our abuser taught us that if we weren't ready to accept everything, it meant we didn't love them or weren't able to understand them. No one taught us the in-between and how to deal with it.

As a side note, I think that's why persecutors can be so hard to deal with. Just like our abusers, they tend to think that if you put boundaries, it means you don't love/accept/understand them, so they react. When the rest of the system think this way too, you end up totally stuck.

I was stuck for a long time with Claude because of this, and since we've started to work with him, I can't count the number of time I had to told him "I say 'no' because of this and that, not because I don't love you, okay ? I really love you, but if we do this, then it will lead to this and that. Got it ?". Sometimes, he's so easily triggered that I need to say this for something as insignificant as saying "no" for one more coffee. And he hates when I do that, because he hates being reassured like a child... but he also admits it's the only way to not have him react because of the fear of being rejected. And maybe, deep down, he finds it a tiny little bit comforting too

We hope things will get better for all of you.

Hi Dwelt,

Thanks for your thorough post. We have huge respect for you both as a friend and because of your clinical knowledge.

We're Skyping with our T in about 45 minutes, but then we'll go back and re-read what you wrote.

MDs