Re: my mom, is denial typical at first? Confused (poss trig)

Second post. Some may remember I posted about my mother here: (orig thread possible triggers) dissociative-identity/topic152168.html

So things have gone much better than I feared, but it is confusing to me. As I am a single entity. My mother has not officially diagnosed, but we (including my psychiatrist father) are pretty sure she has DID, or anothef dissociative disorder.


So I am asking you kind people here, what was it like for you when people first brought it to your attention? What is going on seems... odd to me, but that is from my single perspective. So I'm curious as,to what uou may think... some kind of denial, is it typical? If so, what was your experience with denial, and accepting your others?

First, good news. I wrote her a very strong DEARMAN letter, both stating responsibity and how everything affected me, and the positives she would get, as well as I had come to terms I could not have a relationship with her otherwise, not out of spite, but because it would be too painful.

And... she did it!!! She took specifc responsibility even though she could not remember, and apologized!!! So now we are going to family therapy to start rebuilding a relationship.

Here is where it gets confusing to me, I would really like opinions.

-The first session (less than a month ago) , I lost it a bit when she said she was influenced by "tiger moms " but was no-where near that bad.... she actually believed herself, so I ranted.... some things she looked shocked and asked me specific questions as to why she would do those things, they didn't make sense to her (like I would know?) More below on one of these, it is important.

-Then... she said she remembered things, she had told me when I was a teen, then told me again later that she never said that and those things never happened? ***possible trigger warning*** involving her brother getting into a fist fight with her dad on prom night ***end trigger***

-And then she said of course she remembers it, is one of her most Vivid memories, she tells that story to everyone???!!!

-Then my dad said she said that to him later, and he told her that was funny, she never told him (she didn't!)

-Also, during the first therapy session she told our family counselor this was all news to her, no one had ever even mentioned she had memory gaps before
..

My jaw almost hit the floor. My entire childhood, my sister and I were so worried about her memory, we told her we thought she might have early onset dementia... and my dad has mentioned it too...

How can she say she believes me, with tears in her eyes, and apologize, but not acknowledge she has memory issues????

Also, during the first session, she asked me many things I couldn't possibly know. Like when I told her ***trigger warning*** about a time she dragged me by my hair up the back steps into the house she asked me why she would it?***end trigger warning****

She also said things about her childhood she NEVER told us, or my dad.... this last (3rd session)and even denied outright ***trigger warning*** like she remembers,her brother getting beaten up a few times, and even said she "got smacked a few times?" ***end trigger warning***

What has me so confused is she honestly accepts what I said happened in general, on some level, yet seems to want to argue/prove her memory is "fine" or "even better than her friends", and I think she may have even told the therapist she doesn't want to/ can't believe/ "accept the diagnosis of a dissociative disorder?"

Some of the ways she is trying to convince herself she has a great memory, besides being painful in the way I,mentioned above, are painful and insulting, and appear almost... desperate to me.

She,said she asked my sister and dad about her memory. My sister told her it sucks.. she will forget something she asked hours before and ask again, over and over. My dad told her it is spotty. Her friends told her it is great... even better than theirs. Her explanation is "It sounds,awful, but I guess I just don't pay,much attention to my family".


Also, one of the three incidents she ASKED ME QUESTIONS ABOUT in our first session, I mentioned above, she COMPLETELY forgot me even telling her by our third (less than a,month). ****begin trigger warning***
discussing her home situation she suddenly remembered details,on, therapist mentions to her defense mechanisms develop out of trauma... what she does remember, witnessing her violent padanoid schizophrenic father go after her brother and mother, and have to take care of them while her mother was,in the hospital with cancer, was, awful in itself and she must have felt imprisoned.

I told my mother I think that was the difference.... I wanted to protect my sister so didn't feel reaponsible, so would often try to escape and hide outside or in the neighborhood until my dad got home.... I,was safe when he was home. Then I told her I think that might have been the answer to one of her questions

She looked at me blankly. "Huh? What question?"
You probably dragged me up the stairs by my hair because I was trying to escape because I was,scarex."

Blank stare. "Ummmm...."
"During our first session, I got upset and (repeat of above). You asked me why,you would do that. I thinl that might have been why."

She looks at me blankly with an incredulous look, and says, "um.... ok..."

I turn to our therapist. "Do you remember me telling her that."

Therapist "yes.

My mother looks a bit shocked and tears start welling up kn her eyes. Therapist : "but she doesn't have t9 remember everything".
***end trigger warning****

Also, she has admitted she kind of remembers two things abusive she did, but only AFTER I reminded her one of her friends was present for one, and my Jr. High friends were for the other. She said they were like a blur, only a brief moment, but the details were VERY wrong. She said she asked her friend about the first, but even trying to recall she faltered and honestly could not remember what her friend said, and thought her friend was there for part she was not.... with me, also a blur / brief impression, but only remembers asking me to get out of the car while other girls were in the car, not ****begin trigger warning****stopping the car and forcing me out by yanking me out. By my hair, and hitting me while I was trying to stay in the car, and then driving off ***end trigger warning***

For those of you have been through it, what do you think is going on? Does this seem like fighting denial of a dissociative disorder (letting certain states know) or maybe something else?

As someone who is not, this is confusing and painful. From a singleton perspective, she is lying or she doesn't remember. Right now it appears she believes me but won't / can't believe she has memory issues? So to me it kinda feels like she is accusing me of lying. Only sometimes when I'm there with her (the whole last three times) it does seem she is genuinely remorseful. I am trying to make sense of it. Not having been through it..my (psychiatrist) father and I genuinely think she has a Dissasociative disorder, likely DID, but she hasn't gone through therapy or diagnosis.... so that is why I am here.... asking those of you who have become aware, and accepted your other alters / selves...what are your thoughts on this? What were your experiences not knowing / first being told you might be DID. Did you, or some of your other alters go through denial? What was it like?

What is your opinion here?
l

I am replying to this, even though I am an alter.

I know for Starr (Our host), it was very difficult for her to come to terms with being a multiple. Her friends had pointed it out when she was still in high school that she did things that she doesn't/didn't remember doing at that time. It really confused to her and she denied most of it.

She has had poor memory, but some of the memories, good ones, she has clear and detailed in her mind. She tries to believe that she has a perfect memory and that there is nothing wrong with her. Back in treatment, a couple years ago, she was brought up with the idea that she might have a dissociative disorder, but at that time, no one was able to diagnose her because they weren't qualified to.

She has been asked multiple times if she remembers this or that, but she doesn't. We've had therapy sessions where we have come out and she doesn't remember a thing or parts of the session. Our therapist, however, doesn't recognize that we are out.

Denial is very common amongst most disorders. DID is one of the biggest ones, in our opinion, besides schizophrenia. Starr has had multiple sessions of denial. She has pushed us away and locked us up, with Controller's help, until she couldn't hear us and we couldn't come out unless she lost a bunch of time.

So it is very normal for the them to have denial, especially when they are first introduced to the idea that they have a "problem". Do not worry too much, time can help with this. It is good that you guys are going to therapy to work this out.

Alyssa

Hi Adult Survivor,

I'm glad to read things are much better. It's pretty good she apologized, I remember it was very important for you.

adult_survivor wrote:How can she say she believes me, with tears in her eyes, and apologize, but not acknowledge she has memory issues????
...
What has me so confused is she honestly accepts what I said happened in general, on some level, yet seems to want to argue/prove her memory is "fine" or "even better than her friends", and I think she may have even told the therapist she doesn't want to/ can't believe/ "accept the diagnosis of a dissociative disorder?"

Some of the ways she is trying to convince herself she has a great memory, besides being painful in the way I,mentioned above, are painful and insulting, and appear almost... desperate to me.
...
...Her explanation is "It sounds,awful, but I guess I just don't pay,much attention to my family".

Maybe she's right, even though it might be painful for you. Maybe she learnt to pay attention to the outside because her family of origin was painful for her, so she did the same with her own kids and husband.

adult_survivor wrote:As someone who is not, this is confusing and painful. From a singleton perspective, she is lying or she doesn't remember. Right now it appears she believes me but won't / can't believe she has memory issues? So to me it kinda feels like she is accusing me of lying. Only sometimes when I'm there with her (the whole last three times) it does seem she is genuinely remorseful. I am trying to make sense of it. Not having been through it..my (psychiatrist) father and I genuinely think she has a Dissasociative disorder, likely DID, but she hasn't gone through therapy or diagnosis.... so that is why I am here.... asking those of you who have become aware, and accepted your other alters / selves...what are your thoughts on this? What were your experiences not knowing / first being told you might be DID. Did you, or some of your other alters go through denial? What was it like?

What is your opinion here?
l

For me, what you share here sounds like some parts of her are telling you things how they saw it, how they perceived it, or what they remember. Other parts of her might hold parts of the story as you remember it, but those parts might not be out at this time.

In DID, alters might have barriers among one another, so some may very genuinely be telling you that they don't remember things they don't remember.

What I perceive is that you might be trying to understand her from your perspective, and from what you would do, and how you would react; so in that sense, when she doesn't or she does something different you read it as you would read something in case you would behave that way. That's painful for you.

Off course you read her by how you would behave, we normally do, however, with situations like this we learn that not everyone behaves according to how we perceive they would or even should. She's not a singleton, she's a multiple, and one that doesn't have much of co-consiousness or communication, so some parts of her are very distant to one another, to the point of not believing they have any issues and not remembering what you do remember.

You mention,

Right now it appears she believes me but won't / can't believe she has memory issues? So to me it kinda feels like she is accusing me of lying.[*]

[*]Italics not in original

Maybe this is not time for her to accept yet that she has memory issues. Maybe it's too painful for her if she did.

What I'd highlight here is how you feel: you feel that when she doesn't acknowledge her memory issues, then you're a lier. The things is that you're not. You remember, your friends remember, you father remembers, the only one who doesn't remember is your mother.

I perceive that you want her validation. Maybe you think "She should remember how bad she made me feel". But even if she doesn't remember, even if no one else was there, you do remember, and you belief yourself, you have your validation, your opinion matters, and you do remember.

I recently read: I need your love, is that true, by Byron Katie. And you may find some things useful for you there.

Hey, I hope you find other insights from other people, and I hope you keep finding nice unexpected surprises from her.

Sea

As I said in reply to your first post here, in your other thread back in November 2014, your mom sounds like a typical person with DID prior to diagnosis and treatment. Remember that DID is a combination of identity alteration and dissociative amnesia. These are two separate sets of phenomena, both complex, that can occur together or separately. The result is even more complex.

It is possible that your mother's friends say her memory is excellent because with them she does not ever switch between identities and she does not talk about any topics that she would then "need" to "sweep under the rug" via amnesia.

It is possible, in fact likely, that with her immediate family your mother does switch but you don't yet have the awareness to detect when she switches. This comes with time. It sounds as if currently your mother is switching a lot, especially during therapy sessions. She may also have dissociative amnesia independent of any switching; this is common in DID. The net result that typically is experienced by others who deal with someone who has untreated florid DID, is exactly as you describe: sometimes she remembers, sometimes she doesn't. Sometimes she sort of remembers but has key details all confused, and the holes are filled in with confabulation.

And of course there is lots of denial, but the denial is not part of her DID. Everyone experiences denial, to at least some extent. If denial were not so common it would be in the DSM as a mental health disorder! (I expect some day it will be included.) Denial is the single greatest obstacle to getting help. And it can be extreme. It is astounding what people, who are not habitual liars, will deny right in the face of truth.

Despite your enormous frustration about it, your mom actually isn't in much denial; at least some of the time she does acknowledge that she has a problem and she is participating in therapy with you. From what you describe, the big issue seems to be the amnesia.

I think your family is fortunate! Dissociative amnesia generally is both reversible and curable, meaning a person with DA can learn both to get back lost memories and stop losing memories. And your family is in treatment. These are very good developments. Carry on.

Thank you so much Alyssa, for letting me know your perspective and how it was for Starr. It helps a LOT for me to hear from you and the others here (anyone else who wants to give me their opinion as well, please do as well!)

I specifically insisted and sought out a therapist to work with us who is an expert in dissociative disorders, as, I we need someone who can,understand and work with it and understand it while working with us (otherwise I don't see how family therapy could be successful if they don't recognize what might be going on if she switches into the abuser or martyr or the one I think is a child under 5). However, my individual therapist is NOT, so while the family therapist is balancing things nicely in session.... I don't have anyone to explain to me what might be / is going on. You are all right, my reactions and assumptions are based on the perspective of what I am used to... a singleton, which is why I have come to this board to read and ask questions of you wonderful people, many of whom have become aware of and and accepted your other alters / selves... because imho only someone very knowledgeable or someone who has been in a similar situation can explain what is really going on.

Sea you are absolutely right. I know I'm not lying, but I'm afraid things will turn around again and she will not remember again, and I'll be denied again... something very painful to me then, and now. She has had the same conversation with my sister a dozen times and never remembers it, and some of what we discussed in the first session (though different, I would usually lose it, she would always at first deny, then ***possible trigger warning*** get angry and say it never happened, then shift and let the abusive one out, who would scream horrible mean things like wishing she aborted me and wanted me to kill myself. And that yes, she remembered what she did, but I MADE her do it. Then eventually she would calm down and apologize. Then later act shocked the next time I mentioned it, and say it never happened, and what she said last time never happened, and if she could remember she'd apologize, but she can't so she won't..**.*end trigger warning***.
Basically this has happened over and over again... and when I hear her defending her memory, it makes me very scared nothing has changed and it is/ will happen again and again...

So all of you thank you SO much on the perspectives, especially the retelling of Starr's denial, and pointing out that my mother DOES admit she,has issues at times, and is willing to, and is going to therapy to rebuild a relationship.

I really do wish she would go into therapy for herself, too, but she won't. She gives lots of reasons, but I think she is scared because she knows and is afraid of what actively knowing might mean... I think she is afraid she will remember her childhood stuff she locked away, and what she did to me. I also think her host is very, very scared of her abuser alter, said she can't imagine anyone being that horrible and hopes "he" never comes out again and she never wants to know him (which imho is sad, right? Because if he could heal it might help her a lot, maybe? Just my thoughts, but what do I know, I know nothing as I'm just a singleton :/)

Sea, thanks for the reminder... that different selves / alters can have different opinions and memories, and may be telling me what they recall as they surface.

Una you said something interesting about dissociative amnesia. Do you happen to know if within a system some alters can have it, but not others?

Thank you very, very, very much. Your wisdom, input, opinions, and perceptions are VERY much appreciated and very helpful.

Dissociative amnesia can occur in any alter, but because the host alter is the one most often "awake" the host is the one who experiences it the most. Dissociative amnesia occurs outside of DID as well. I have observed episodes of DA in persons who do not have DID.

adult_survivor wrote:Basically this has happened over and over again...

Exactly. She needs individual therapy. Have you seen the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Although the "mechanism" is a machine, dissociative amnesia is central to this movie. It might be an interesting movie for adult members of your family to watch together. For children it could be overwhelming.