Rant About Forum- So Much Serious/Triggery Threads- TW

You say that you didn't want your post to result in a conversation. I don't recall you ever saying that you didn't want anyone to respond to your original posts. If I missed that, I apologize. And now that you have expressed that you didn't wish to have a conversation, I apologize for posting again, but as you've stated numerous times, we all have the right to express ourselves here, and I feel the need to respond.

I don't recall anyone in your system previously acknowledging that Shay's responses may not have been appropriate. Your specific words were "her expressions may not have been the most eloquent, nor the most kind" which to me is not the same thing. Again, if I missed it, I apologize, and I appreciate you saying it. Thank you.

It was not my intention to lecture you, and I don't feel I was. I apologize if it came off that way.

Lastly, I feel there's a difference between a general venting rant and a rant directed towards the readers, chastising them for their behavior. Even though it wasn't directed specifically at any one person, Shay's rant involved telling people they weren't doing enough to help themselves, that they were using the forum for easy answers and solutions and that they shouldn't be doing that, and that makes it a kind of generalized personal attack, in my opinion. I may be alone in this, but I feel the title description and trigger warnings did not warn of that. You clearly feel differently, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

(The problem may be that I haven't been here very long, and I'd only seen "anger" trigger warnings used to mean that the poster was expressing anger that wasn't directed towards other posters. I kind of thought that threads that more attack-like like that weren't really supposed to be done. This is the first thread I've read in which that was not the case, and in which the poster was not able to understand/deal with many of the normal responses one gets from a post like that. Is that commonplace here? That's a serious question for anyone who has an answer. I need to know if I need to prepare myself for that whenever I read/respond here. And if it is the way things are here, and it was my mistake not to realize that, once again, I apologize.)

Thank you for wishing me a good night. I appreciate you trying to keep this civil, and I hope I have as well.

This is the first thread I've read in which that was not the case, and in which the poster was not able to understand/deal with many of the normal responses one gets from a post like that. Is that commonplace here? That's a serious question for anyone who has an answer. I need to know if I need to prepare myself for that whenever I read/respond here.

Since you're asking everyone: No, that isn't what is commonplace here. There are very few times I've seen rants directed at posters in general or how we as a group interact or write or anything of that sort. I don't think there are any rules stating this is not allowed though and being prepared always comes in handy, I think.

I think in the end, it all comes down to the fact that we all have to take care of ourselves and keep our own boundaries. If we are too unstable to read certain posts or to see certain titles it's the person or system's job to take steps to avoid this. If one is too triggered by a rant one was (for any reason, personal or otherwise) not prepared to read it's the person or system's job to take steps to calm down and not respond in a manner that is provocative or not conductive to the mental stability of oneself or others. Communicating when one is calm enough is of course a good solution.

Oh, good. That's kind of what I figured, but I'm glad to know for sure. Thank you.

Edit: I realized that that may sound like I was overlooking everything else you said. I agree with you, and I know I need to be prepared. It's just good to know that it's not something I need to be expecting frequently to the point that I maybe can't come here, if that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks again.

you're welcome

AlteredArt wrote:You say that you didn't want your post to result in a conversation. I don't recall you ever saying that you didn't want anyone to respond to your original posts. If I missed that, I apologize. And now that you have expressed that you didn't wish to have a conversation, I apologize for posting again, but as you've stated numerous times, we all have the right to express ourselves here, and I feel the need to respond.

Of course I would not tell people that I do not wish to have responses, for everyone is free to respond if they so wish to. I simply wanted to make it clear that I was not looking for a conversation and that I had said what I wanted and needed to say, and was finished.

(If you were referring to Shay's posts as the original posts, I would not say anything about those myself because those are not my posts. I am sure she did not and does not mind replies to her posts, since I believe she was looking to be heard, acknowledged, and understood while being allowed to express herself and vent here).

AlteredArt wrote:I don't recall anyone in your system previously acknowledging that Shay's responses may not have been appropriate. Your specific words were "her expressions may not have been the most eloquent, nor the most kind" which to me is not the same thing. Again, if I missed it, I apologize, and I appreciate you saying it. Thank you.

Just because I do not use the same words as you do and again, do not choose to make everything I do public does not mean I have overlooked anything.
I also do not truly believe that Shay was inappropriate in any way, for as I have said, she was expressing herself to the best of her abilities, which can sometimes come off inappropriately, and she was clear enough to give fair warning in the title and trigger warnings. I can see and understand how others would see and believe Shay's posts to be inappropriate though.

AlteredArt wrote:It was not my intention to lecture you, and I don't feel I was. I apologize if it came off that way.

I appreciate and accept the apology, thank you, for it did come off that way.

AlteredArt wrote:Lastly, I feel there's a difference between a general venting rant and a rant directed towards the readers, chastising them for their behavior. Even though it wasn't directed specifically at any one person, Shay's rant involved telling people they weren't doing enough to help themselves, that they were using the forum for easy answers and solutions and that they shouldn't be doing that, and that makes it a kind of generalized personal attack, in my opinion. I may be alone in this, but I feel the title description and trigger warnings did not warn of that. You clearly feel differently, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

It was not meant to be any kind of attack, generalized or otherwise. Shay was expressing and venting her opinions, her thoughts, and her feelings, which include everything you've pointed out. Those are all her thoughts, opinions, and feelings that she is free to have, as well as free to express and vent about. And again, she was doing so to the best of her abilities. Meaning that despite her not meaning for it to seem like an attack, it ended up being worded that way and coming off that way.

The warnings may not have been that clear, but warnings on here often aren't that clear or detailed. Usually there is only a "trigger warning" without further warnings or details at the top of threads, so I do not understand why we should be singled out for not including details. I believe Shay did a very good job at making the title clear, which stated it was a rant about the forum and the threads being posted on it, and making her trigger warnings clear, which stated that this post dealt with anger, confusion, and frustration, and when you take the title into account, that is a clear warning that this is a rant post that deals with anger, confusion, and frustration about the forum and the threads being posted on it.

I will gladly agree to disagree on this if we are at an impasse.

AlteredArt wrote:(The problem may be that I haven't been here very long, and I'd only seen "anger" trigger warnings used to mean that the poster was expressing anger that wasn't directed towards other posters. I kind of thought that threads that more attack-like like that weren't really supposed to be done. This is the first thread I've read in which that was not the case, and in which the poster was not able to understand/deal with many of the normal responses one gets from a post like that. Is that commonplace here? That's a serious question for anyone who has an answer. I need to know if I need to prepare myself for that whenever I read/respond here. And if it is the way things are here, and it was my mistake not to realize that, once again, I apologize.)

Thank you for wishing me a good night. I appreciate you trying to keep this civil, and I hope I have as well.

You have already received an answer, but no, from what I have seen it is not commonplace here, but nor is it against any rules that I know of since clear warnings were given, this was titled as a rant and was not meant to be an attack, and since specifics were not mentioned.

Also, I do not believe Vell's posts were a part of "normal" responses one would usually receive. The responses that attempted to give explanations or advice were ones I'd expect to see. Not responses that openly and blatantly called Shay a bully or that do not seem to "listen" when she clearly states she was merely trying to express herself and vent/rant.


You have indeed tried to keep this civil, and I also appreciate it.

I hope you have a good day.


~Rain

AlteredArt wrote:Oh, good. That's kind of what I figured, but I'm glad to know for sure. Thank you.

Edit: I realized that that may sound like I was overlooking everything else you said. I agree with you, and I know I need to be prepared. It's just good to know that it's not something I need to be expecting frequently to the point that I maybe can't come here, if that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks again.

I know and understand that you meant no offense with this, but it was rather hurtful to Shay, because she interpreted it to mean that her ways of venting/expressing are wrong, that her attempts at communication and expression are wrong, and that her posting style makes people not want to be here.

I will be explaining to her that I am sure this was not meant, but I wished for you to be aware of our reactions to your comment of "it's just good to know that it's not something (referring to Shay's difficulties with expressing herself and then handling "normal" responses) I need to be expecting frequently to the point that I maybe can't come here". Which can be a rather triggering comment with the wording you chose, if I may say so myself. Basically what you're stating there is that if most other people here are like Shay, that have difficulties with "dealing" with supposed "normal" responses (what is a "normal" response, anyway? - rhetorical question), you wish to know so that you can know if you need to/want to leave. That is like asking if it's common for a place to be frequented by a certain race so that you know to avoid that place. At least, it is to me.

I understand that you have a valid reason for asking that question, and I understand that it is indeed a valid question. However, to post it with that word choice on the very thread that is Shay's, who has those difficulties and who cannot control the difficulties that she has, seems rather insensitive and not very thoughtful to me.

All the same, I am glad you received the answer you were looking for.


~Rain

Yes, I meant your original posts, not Shay's.

tomboy24 wrote:Just because I do not use the same words as you do and again, do not choose to make everything I do public does not mean I have overlooked anything.

How am I supposed to know that if you don't say it? I'm not a mind-reader, and I don't know you well enough to assume what you have or have not done or are thinking.


Agree to disagree it is then.

tomboy24 wrote:Also, I do not believe Vell's posts were a part of "normal" responses one would usually receive. The responses that attempted to give explanations or advice were ones I'd expect to see. Not responses that openly and blatantly called Shay a bully or that do not seem to "listen" when she clearly states she was merely trying to express herself and vent/rant.

Anger in response to what you admit was worded in a way that came off as being an attack is an entirely normal response, in my opinion and experience.

tomboy24 wrote:I know and understand that you meant no offense with this, but it was rather hurtful to Shay, because she interpreted it to mean that her ways of venting/expressing are wrong, that her attempts at communication and expression are wrong, and that her posting style makes people not want to be here.

I will be explaining to her that I am sure this was not meant, but I wished for you to be aware of our reactions to your comment of "it's just good to know that it's not something (referring to Shay's difficulties with expressing herself and then handling "normal" responses) I need to be expecting frequently to the point that I maybe can't come here". Which can be a rather triggering comment with the wording you chose, if I may say so myself. Basically what you're stating there is that if most other people here are like Shay, that have difficulties with "dealing" with supposed "normal" responses (what is a "normal" response, anyway? - rhetorical question), you wish to know so that you can know if you need to/want to leave. That is like asking if it's common for a place to be frequented by a certain race so that you know to avoid that place. At least, it is to me.

I understand that you have a valid reason for asking that question, and I understand that it is indeed a valid question. However, to post it with that word choice on the very thread that is Shay's, who has those difficulties and who cannot control the difficulties that she has, seems rather insensitive and not very thoughtful to me.

I find it odd that Shay was hurt that I might be implying that she made me not want to post here, given that she repeatedly told me in all caps (generally viewed as the written version of yelling) to get out.

When you start a thread, you run the risk of other related conversations happening in that thread. This conversation is with you. Given that she told me to get out, I have been carefully not addressing her. I'm sorry Shay is hurt and upset, but that is not my fault. I feel her interpretations of my post are unreasonable, and I am not responsible for her incomprehension and negative emotional response to her misinterpretations. (Please note, I am referring to the post you quoted in your most recent response, not Velle's post).

Wanting to know if I'm going to be regularly triggered and yelled at in written form for expressing myself is, as you yourself say, valid. I fail to see how that makes me the equivalent of a racist, and I'm pretty offended by that and would like an apology.

It is not my responsibility to walk on eggshells around Shay or anyone else or to tailor my responses to other people to her level of understanding and emotional capabilities, and I will not do that. If she can't understand what she reads and has such strongly negative reactions to her misunderstandings and to others, then I feel for her, but that's not my responsibility, it's hers and yours.

AlteredArt wrote:How am I supposed to know that if you don't say it? I'm not a mind-reader, and I don't know you well enough to assume what you have or have not done or are thinking.

I do not have to tell you everything, nor do I owe you anything.

AlteredArt wrote:Anger in response to what you admit was worded in a way that came off as being an attack is an entirely normal response, in my opinion and experience.

Yes, but when it is stated repeatedly that this was meant to be only expression and ranting, not an attack, repeating such responses, especially to blatantly call one a bully as well as saying to not use Autism as an excuse, is rather unnecessary and uncalled for.

AlteredArt wrote:I find it odd that Shay was hurt that I might be implying that she made me not want to post here, given that she repeatedly told me in all caps (generally viewed as the written version of yelling) to get out.

Of course she asked you to leave. You insulted her, you misunderstood her, it seemed you would not listen to a word she said or any explanation she tried to provide, and you hurt her greatly.

What I meant by not wanting to post here was not wanting to post or be here on the forum in general, not this thread. Thus, this statement is nullified.

AlteredArt wrote:When you start a thread, you run the risk of other related conversations happening in that thread. This conversation is with you. Given that she told me to get out, I have been carefully not addressing her. I'm sorry Shay is hurt and upset, but that is not my fault. I feel her interpretations of my post are unreasonable, and I am not responsible for her incomprehension and negative emotional response to her misinterpretations. (Please note, I am referring to the post you quoted in your most recent response, not Velle's post).

I never said it was your fault. Nor did I ever say you were responsible for anything.

I simply commented on the place that you chose to make such a statement, and the wording you chose to make that statement with.

AlteredArt wrote:Wanting to know if I'm going to be regularly triggered and yelled at in written form for expressing myself is, as you yourself say, valid. I fail to see how that makes me the equivalent of a racist, and I'm pretty offended by that and would like an apology.

You may have been expressing yourself, but so was Shay, and this was her thread, and Velle came on here, to Shay's thread, and yelled at her for expressing herself.

I never said you were a racist, nor do I believe you are one. Please read my words carefully, and please do not attach meanings that are not there. I was using a simple analogy, nothing more. I do not feel I owe you anything, apology or otherwise, for I did not insult you in any way, nor did I do anything wrong.

AlteredArt wrote:It is not my responsibility to walk on eggshells around Shay or anyone else or to tailor my responses to other people to her level of understanding and emotional capabilities, and I will not do that. If she can't understand what she reads and has such strongly negative reactions to her misunderstandings and to others, then I feel for her, but that's not my responsibility, it's hers and yours.

And it is not Shay's responsibility to walk on eggshells after she has made her title and trigger warnings clear, and then especially after she has attempted to explain that this was only expression and ranting.

I never said it was your responsibility, nor did I ask you to walk on eggshells.

I beg to differ! If you are posting on her thread, it IS your responsibility to tailor your responses to who is posting and to who's thread this is. What you are saying is that people should completely disregard context, disregard who is posting, and just blindly reply and respond to things. That is not, in my experience, how the world or this forum works. I tailor all my replies and responses to the context of the thread and who is posting the thread, as well as what I know of them from that post or gained knowledge from past experiences. And I see many people here, if I am not mistaken, do the same.

You can always choose to not reply or respond to a thread.

As for having strong reactions to misunderstandings... I believe it was you and Velle that misunderstood that Shay was merely expressing herself and not attacking nor meaning harm to anyone, and yet you and Velle had strong reactions to that.

And I am sorry, but I am not Shay's babysitter nor caretaker, and Shay does not need one. It is not my responsibility to look out for her unless it is needed (such as right now).


~Rain




I want to address AlteredArt.

I am working very hard to type right and focus and find the words.

AlteredArt-

I am not stupid.
I might have troubles understanding stuff, but I am not stupid.
And your comments make me feel like I am stupid, or as if you're calling me retarded.
You use harsh words.
I use harsh words sometimes too but that's because I can't find other words.
You seem to have better ability at finding words.
Could find and choose to use nicer words.



You made the first misunderstanding. And then you seemed to not listen or read a word I said after that. You kept being mean and kept not understanding. Or Velle did. Whoever. Your username has been mean and has not understood this whole time.


You seem hypocritical to me.
You talk about freedom of expression and such yet you seem to not be very open to tolerating others, understanding others, or letting other express themselves in different ways, ways you maybe not used to or familiar with.
And you talk of misunderstandings, yet it was you who misunderstood me first, and you who responded meanly after I tried to explain self best I could.


I am sorry I can't do things right.
I am sorry I have trouble communicating and expressing.
I am sorry for all ways my struggles and difficulties and things I can't help and have no control over that cause difficulties for you and everyone else.


But no one is perfect.
No one does things same way.
No one interprets things same way.
And everyone different.
Everyone also have different views, thoughts, opinions, feelings, etc.


All I've been trying to do here all time is express myself.
That is it.
You misunderstood first.
You've been mean.
You've been offered further understanding and explanation and yet you persist with I don't even know what and I don't even know why you're still responding.
It's like you're looking for fight that is not there.


No one is insulting you or trying to.
No one is doing anything wrong to you.
Everything has been explained and there should be more understanding but you just seem to shut out and continue as if nothing been said. It confuses.


And basically saying that you hope posts like mine and reactions like mine aren't a "commonplace" here is mean. I don't see how someone can not see that as mean. Or least insensitive.
Understand that you have a reason for saying and asking but it's still not very nice. Nothing is wrong with me.
I know I'm hard to be around.
I know I'm hard to interact with.
Think I not know that? I not stupid! I see mistakes I make! I try to do things right! It hard! Not easy! And people like you who misunderstand and not be open to understand or put yourself in my shoes or anything make it even harder!!

I should say "seem".
And I should not say "people like you" because even though you seem misunderstand too, that not what I mean to say.
People who seem to misunderstand and such.

See? I'm not stupid. I'm trying learn. I not try to be mean. Finding words is hard. Putting them together even harder. So sometimes mean stuff come out when I'm not trying be mean.


Can you please not talk anymore about how I can't comprehend or understand things? Can you please not talk anymore about how I need to do this or how I should do that?
Because it makes me feel like I'm stupid.
And like you think I'm stupid.
I'm not stupid.
I know I have things I need work on.
I can comprehend lots of things and understand lots things.
Sometimes it's hard for I to comprehend and understand.
That ok.
That's not my fault either.


I am
taking thread back

This my thread.

Rain not
respond for me
anymore.

She helped explain

She helped bring understanding or tried to

There nothing more
for her
to say or do



I still do
not accept apology.

I still very
hurt from you and Velle.

I thank you
for apology
and
for
talking to
Rain.

I hope
in time
all can move
past and move
on.

I do not
dislike or
hate AlteredArt
or anything
like that.


But now
I'd like
thread back


all i trying do
was express
and all it turn into
was misunderstandings
and hurtfulness
and meanness
and explanations about
how i wrong or can't
do things right
or how i different from
others and i not
like it....


hate trying express...

hate trying communicate...

always come out wrong...

always end up wrong...

always end up bad....


but rain say
should keep
trying

so will






~s
h
a
y~

*TRIGGER WARNING FOR SHAY: This part is meant for Rain. You will likely find it insulting and hurtful. Please skip to the bottom where I put your name in bright red letters.*

tomboy24 wrote:Basically what you're stating there is that if most other people here are like Shay, that have difficulties with "dealing" with supposed "normal" responses (what is a "normal" response, anyway? - rhetorical question), you wish to know so that you can know if you need to/want to leave. That is like asking if it's common for a place to be frequented by a certain race so that you know to avoid that place. At least, it is to me.

(Bolding and italics are mine, not Rain's)

According to Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/):
(copy and pasted)
Definition of racism:
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination


Definition of discrimination:
1
a : the act of discriminating
b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2
: the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3
a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually
b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>

AlteredArt wrote:I fail to see how that makes me the equivalent of a racist, and I'm pretty offended by that and would like an apology.

tomboy24 wrote:I never said you were a racist, nor do I believe you are one. Please read my words carefully, and please do not attach meanings that are not there. I was using a simple analogy, nothing more.

(Bolding/italics mine, not Rain's)

According to Merriam-Webster, again:

Definition of analogy: (copy and pasted)
1
: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others
2
a : resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : similarity
b : comparison based on such resemblance
3
: correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for the creation of another form
4
: correspondence in function between anatomical parts of different structure and origin — compare homology


As for the rest of your post, I feel you're either missing the point I was trying to make or we've reached an impasse on the subject. I'm guessing we'd just be going around in circles at this point, so I'm just going to end it here. I feel my statements in my previous post still stand for themselves.

As for Shay's part of the post, I'm afraid all I can say is that it's basically proved my earlier points and I'm not going to engage with her except to say this:



SHAY:

Thank you for the time and effort it took for you to say all of that. I don't think you're stupid or retarded or that you can't do anything right or anything like that. I never said those things. I don't know how to talk with you so that you don't feel hurt and upset, so I am not going to talk to you anymore. I hope you understand.

AlteredArt wrote:*TRIGGER WARNING FOR SHAY: This part is meant for Rain. You will likely find it insulting and hurtful. Please skip to the bottom where I put your name in bright red letters.*

As for the rest of your post, I feel you're either missing the point I was trying to make or we've reached an impasse on the subject. I'm guessing we'd just be going around in circles at this point, so I'm just going to end it here. I feel my statements in my previous post still stand for themselves.

I do not need definitions quoted to me.

I was not saying you were equivalent to a racist, nor did I mean to imply so. Again, I was using a simple analogy, or a comparison, or a simile, whatever word you would like to use to describe what I said, and nothing more.

I still do not feel I owe you an apology or anything otherwise. I did not insult you. I did not call you a racist. I did not say you were the equivalent to a racist. I was using a simple analogy that was not meant to harm. I did nothing wrong.

I do not believe I missed the point you were trying to make. I believe we are at an impasse and will have to agree to disagree once again. I also feel that my statements in my previous posts stand for themselves, especially since I only came on here to explain things and help others understand Shay more, and that is all.


As for Shay's post supposedly "proving your points", we have never said that your points were not valid, nor have we disagreed that Shay has difficulties in communication, expression, or understanding. So I do not understand why that statement was necessary.


I bid you a good day/night.


~Rain

AlteredArt wrote:SHAY:

Thank you for the time and effort it took for you to say all of that. I don't think you're stupid or retarded or that you can't do anything right or anything like that. I never said those things. I don't know how to talk with you so that you don't feel hurt and upset, so I am not going to talk to you anymore. I hope you understand.

*deep breath*

No I don't understand.

There's nothing wrong with me.

Not that hard to talk to me.

All you have to do is not call me a bully, not say I'm using Autism as a excuse, not yell at me for expressing myself, recognize your mistakes and misunderstandings- like you've done, not say that you're happy that this forum doesn't have a lot of posters that post/reply like I do, basically all you have to do talk to me is be understanding and a little bit patient with me.



I never said that you said those things, did I? No. I didn't. I know you didn't say those things. That's why I SAID, "it MAKES ME FEEL like you think i'm stupid or retarded". That is how your words made me feel. You didn't say I was stupid or retarded, but all your talk about how I can't understand or comprehend stuff made me feel like you think I'm stupid or retarded.


My word choice hurt sometimes.
I know that.
But can you not see that your word choice hurt sometimes too?





~s
h
a
y~

alteredart-

oh and also, don't make assumptions about me. please.
like saying i will likely find it insulting or hurtful.

saying that i will likely think something or react in a certain way when you don't know me is not very understanding or nice.

(and by the way, I did not find it insulting or hurtful)

do you make assumptions about everyone so quickly?

and doesn't everyone have different levels of understanding, comprehension, and have different reactions to things?

why is shay being singled out?

just because shay's different from what you're used to maybe?

well I am sorry that I am different but everyone is different.

you seem to be understanding and accepting and open to everyone else but shay and i do not understand.

i am not that different from other people, or from yourself.

i have feelings and would like things to be worded carefully and with my feelings in mind, just like others

i would like to be heard and understood, just like others

i try to express and communicate to the best of my abilities, just like others

i interpret things differently that they were meant to be taken sometimes, just like others

i am not the only one who has strong reactions to things

i am not the only one who has difficulties with understanding, comprehension, etc., etc.

i am not the only one who had different ways of expressing and communicating

so i do not understand why there issue with me.

i not that different from others.





~s
h
a
y~

-- Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:51 pm --

i am now very sorry that i ever posted this and i regret doing it and i wish i could delete it and just forget about it and let everyone else forget about it.

not because of any upset it caused, no.

but because it went from a thread where i was trying to express self and communicate into a thread where i and my difficulties and my differences are all being talked about by others and discussed and i'm still feeling like i'm being misunderstood. it turned into a thread all about meanness and misunderstandings and miscommunications and stuff it was never supposed to be or have.

i hate trying express

i hate trying communicate

always comes out wrong and always ends bad

hate hate hate it


want to delete this thread and crawl into a hole and hide forever






~s
h
a
y~