BPD and ASPD -- I don't feel like you.

This is a difficult topic for me.

I am posting this thread because I am looking for feedback from individuals diagnosed with BPD -- looking to engage with those that stand upon similar ground and see if there are any other commonalities (and trying to pinpoint where we diverge). I am conflicted because I have been diagnosed with BPD for about six months, but the diagnosis still doesn't make complete sense. A lot of it fully resonates with what I experience -- in fact, all of it does. But I feel as though there are parts of me that the diagnosis does not touch, does not expose, and does not come anywhere close to explaining.

I experience, in rather heavy degrees, things that the borderline diagnosis does not whisper at. They scare me, and always have. They are scaring me more fully now because when I read all of your posts on this board, I get them, but there's this darkness behind all of it that relatively few others seem to experience. The intense emotions -- I get them. The abyss-esque empathy -- I get this. The sheer terror of abandonment -- I understand this. The complete repulsion of living in one's own skin -- I know this. But there is something else, as well. Something that seems to cancel all of that out.

It's... like... there are two of me. Which may be the epitome of borderline splitting, I don't know. But it feels as though there is one part of me that is a deeply feeling, deeply emotional, and deeply empathetic individual. And then, existing in perfect tandem, is the other part of me -- the part of me that, even as I witness someone's heartbroken tears and fully recognize the deep anguish behind them, doesn't, ultimately, give a flying f*ck. The part of me that 100% relishes pain and suffering. The part of me that consistently experiences homicidal ideation. The part of me that could stand laughing in the middle of the apocalypse, waiting to unleash everything I've kept suppressed -- all of my hidden desires -- because lawlessness would prevail and I could finally have what I have desired for so long. I understand the point of the laws in our society. But I rarely ever find the deeds that require their enactments ever wrong. I understand that society at large finds those deeds to be wrong, and I respect the laws because of this. But to say that the acts are wrong? I'm usually in full disagreement.

When I read your posts, I feel your pain. But, ultimately, your pain has no meaning. In fact, it is so meaningless that I can find pleasure in it. I am the person that can hold your hand as you cry, fully understanding your reasons (or, at least, thinking that I do), and still be unconcerned. Untouched. How can this be?

I know the dangers of pigeon-holing oneself into a diagnosis, and I know that a diagnosis should never be used as a self-defining label. But a diagnosis should be used to identify problems with living, and it should be able to pinpoint the areas of limitation and be able to provide a path with which to move away from those limitations.

A while back, a therapist brought up the mildly unpleasant suggestion that I have ASPD traits (misanthropy, philosophical lawlessness, lack of "classical" empathy). She thought that my world view was similar to that of the classical definition of psychopathy, but assured me that there was nothing inherently wrong with it because I understood the ramifications of ignoring it. But the problem is -- how can asociality and empathy co-exist? Maybe I don't have empathy at all? Understanding someone's pain (even if you feel it like it is happening to you) and caring about it, are, ultimately, two different things. I don't think I care. At all.

I know there are a limited number of you that have discussed antisocial feelings/thoughts/behaviours (the ones that currently come to mind are ajrocker and AliceWonders), and I would like to know how you think those thoughts and behaviours fit into the BPD diagnosis. Because I feel broken, and strange. I hate that I can understand pain for its darkness, and relish it for that same darkness. I worry that the lines may, one day, not be so distinct. They are becoming less clear cut with each passing day.

BE you know I think in some ways BPD extends beyond many diagnostic categories, it can sometimes mimic other personality disorders, such as ASPD and HPD. It's not very clear to me from reading your post what you think cannot be explained by the severe emotional disturbance that BPD causes. Lack of empathy is characteristic of all personality disorders almost by definition alone, BPD obviously included. And constant homicidal ideation I am certain comes from disturbed emotions rather than a complete emotional deficit that psychopaths have. And all the symptoms of ASPD are either explicitly defined or implied within the symptoms of BPD with the exception of lack of remorse, which is an emotional deficit problem. I wouldn't consider it abnormal if you can do things without remorse, I'm sure we all can, the fact is you have another side to you which does apparently care for other people and have strong empathy, so going through situations where you feel no remorse is part of being a complicated person. I understand your confusion but it's really nothing to lose sleep over, it's just an aspect to your personality that makes you unique and non stereotypical.

I worry that the lines may, one day, not be so distinct. They are becoming less clear cut with each passing day

And that bothers you?



I guess i am wondering..........why this is a difficult topic for you? I think perhaps ,that this fits into the BPD dx, because you are tightly holding on to the idea that you are a "good person" and a "caring" person.........and this is difficult, because you can see CLEARLY in many ways you are not always those things.
The black and white-ness of it all, makes you question yourself........and in another BPD classic, you are extrapolating where this will lead.



*btw, i should like to commend you on such a well written post........it was a pleasure to read.

This is a difficult topic for me.

You say, the borderline dx doesn't whipser at this at all...........i disagree. Personally, i think half of these borderlines, are in some heavy form of denial about who they are.
At the very least, the borderline dx does whisper at this......because it leaves room for it.

Rapidly shifting emotions and a lack of a stable indentity.....can certainly lead, to an impaired sense of empathy. It can also lead to an impaired sense, of value, commonality........it makes it easy, for someone like me or you, to see certain aspects of themselves....revealed in the absence of other aspects. (when we are rapidly cycling)


If i love someone one minue, and hate them the next.........LITERALLY...........then it gets to be a a strain, trying to disprove one emotion and validate the other.
Eventually, the idea of love.......or hate.........kind of loses meaning. The emotions are still there and strong, but the laughable transient nature at their core.........allows for me, not to hold too seriously to any one version of events/reality/self........however you would like to define it.


I can buy you dinner and tell you i love you............or i could hit you with a hammer. I don't need to admonish myself, for having the capability to do the latter......there are practical reasons why i wouldn't hit a person with a hammer.
Jail, they'd die (i would miss them) ....there would be a mess........i'd feel guilty sort of.......i would be afraid that the universe would punish me........

None of those reasons, are "because it is wrong".........or because "i am a nice person, and couldn't do such a thing"....

No, they are all practical reasons.........that are important to me. I don't assign some magical value, to why i don't kill people.....as my respect for their life or my inherent goodness.........no, i'd kill lots of people, if it practically made sense for me to do so.
Mostly through my religious upbringing..........i would have an irrational fear of some sort of eternal punishment........but that has little to do, with me being nice. It's me feeling, like i have to be.......



So yes, i understand what you are getting it............and i guess, it is scary? Well go to the AsPD board.....you'll feel less scary. LOL

I am the person that can hold your hand as you cry, fully understanding your reasons (or, at least, thinking that I do), and still be unconcerned. Untouched. How can this be?

Because if you do have BPD.......there exists the very real possibility, that people don't really exist to you. That they are, part of your own paranoid delusions and insecurities about yourself first and foremost....then after that, they are people.
Why wouldn't you be unconcerned and untouched? If their issues don't serve to benefit you in some way?

But a diagnosis should be used to identify problems with living, and it should be able to pinpoint the areas of limitation and be able to provide a path with which to move away from those limitations.

Yes, perhaps the limitation isn't in the feeling or lack thereof..........perhaps the limitation, is in your own understanding of feelings? How they occur, what role they serve and why you do and don't have them......

If you want to learn why you have at time little empathy..........and seek to suddenly, have more.....that may be difficult.
But if you want to learn, why you have little empathy........and learn to be ok with that, and to learn to value others despite it.....that could work.

But the problem is -- how can asociality and empathy co-exist? Maybe I don't have empathy at all? Understanding someone's pain (even if you feel it like it is happening to you) and caring about it, are, ultimately, two different things. I don't think I care. At all.

You probably do.......just not always. And to you, cause of BPD.........that seems like not at all.


Empathy isn't really understanding someone's pain.........it's just feeling badly cause you notice it.
You most likely, have a very impaired sense of empathy.........how it's impaired, may be different to anyone else.......but you don't have to care, to have empathy.
I mean...you could see someone crying, and feel badly....but not care that you feel badly......that would still be empathy.

I just wanted to say I know what you are talking about BE. To me, it's like I have this horrible demon within me that if I let it out, not only do I lose whatever I think myself is, I completely dissociate and wreak complete havoc. When I'm calm, I'm sweet, open, friendly, and enthusiastic for life and my emotions are actually completely physical sensations (I'm also dx'd Autistic spectrum - Asperger's), joy causing immediate laughter. Then I can withdraw/go away, in a blink of the eye, lights on , but nobody home, then back again, then away for a while.... lost in my inner world and no one can pull me out(this can go on for days).

So , not sure how much extra stuff parallels your experience, I definitely get the homicidal urges.... I don't even see people as something that matters to me at all most of the time, honestly when someone gets their little ego bruised I am appalled and a bit repulsed.... well who knows what dx that belongs with.

HTH you Love your writing btw, it's juicy in my head with words rich in meaning and layers.

i wish i knew what to say, except: yes, it's pretty much how i feel about things too.

i don't know. i think philosophical lawlessness can just be the natural outcome of not being able to identify after a time where and how you are in terms of beliefs. i've just settled on a form of nihilism. most of what i've believed in life has fallen through, or proved so impractical (if a belief in god or what have doesn't modify my behavior---or human behavior in general---for the better, then what's the point finally?)

i have tons of rage, i've had tons of revenge fantasies, and sometimes they've been so huge i thought they would consume me.

i sometimes feel too much of what people are feeling, and sometimes i have no empathy at all.

i think maybe the 'dark side' feels exaggerated because everything hits me so intensely, so it seems huge. possibly it's not as big as i sometimes think it is, or you think it is. everyone has incredibly dark moments, and humans (from my experience) are capable of just about anything. that goes for people with outwardly quiet lives: sometimes they're the ones i worry about most.

i think people with pd's (maybe bpd especially) are more inclined to identify and name our dark sides because we've been identified so often as 'the family patient' or 'the problem,' or what have you. but i don't really know how much weight the distinction carries. i know from experience that i've had to carry the dark side for a lot of people who were invested in outward perfection. (i know it's an old chord, but: my family, for instance. abusive but saintly. i acted out. they kept their respectability.)

disclaimer: this is my opinion, and i am decidedly not objective. at all. not on this issue, anyway.

YEAH!!!!

B*tch-E you're so NOT alone in this!!!

And I know just how you feel about now too...

You're at a major breaking point/turning point here. You've just discovered how you are different from the 'mold' of your disorder, and questioned yourself- that's HUGE! and totally awesome to see!!!

I have fragmentation and identity defussion as well. More than just 2sides, I have several pieces that wax and wayne through my persona, and some are wonderful storng pieces, while others delight in violence and suffering. It's very hard to come to terms with yourself when you're so one way and so totally the other. It really doesn't make sense


How can you be totally good, kind, loving, caring, supportive, encouraging, nuturing and truly have a passion for others in their plight- while on the other hand get off on watching people suffer, delight in their fragility, want to slap them for their annyoingness and hate them/look down on them for their weakness and stupidity?

How can that be???
How can that be the same person (you) that goes so far up in love and carring, and then so far down in hate and torture?
It just doesn't seem real; but it is real and you know it's real because you've been this way (these 2 sides) for so very long that you can't remember yourself as one way alone, ever in time.
Sure you may be one way for a few weeks, months even- but it doesn't last. Nothing lasts and it's all just a bit of drama and angry trigger away before you loose it all again and become that 'bad' part of you.

When you are good you are so very good ; but when you are bad you are wretched and worse yet- you LIKE it. You LOVE IT! And you know you shouldn't; but you do. That's very confusing...


It's taken me a long time to come to terms with the bad parts of me.
Hanging out in the AsPD forum and disgussing stuff with those there helped me see how I am the same as them, and also how I am different.

I know there are a limited number of you that have discussed antisocial feelings/thoughts/behaviours (the ones that currently come to mind are ajrocker and AliceWonders), and I would like to know how you think those thoughts and behaviours fit into the BPD diagnosis. Because I feel broken, and strange. I hate that I can understand pain for its darkness, and relish it for that same darkness. I worry that the lines may, one day, not be so distinct. They are becoming less clear cut with each passing day.

It wouldn't suprise me if more BPD's are this way and are just too afriad to say so.
Afraid of people not liking/aproving of them= abandonment
and what not...

But honestly, the key to getting well is finding your own personal truth!
If you are this way- it's OK that you are this way, and that doesn't make you a 'bad person' it makes you a damaged person in need of support and compassion as you struggle through this.

I don't know all of your histroy; but in my case I've exmained my past (both in therapy and on the forum) to find out a great deal about why I am this way.

I'm not this way because I choose to be- God NO!
It was something that happened because of the things that happened through my life and how they affected me.

There's nothing worse than feeling you don't fit in, especially when you already feel like an outcast in the world. I think it was me and AJ who a few months ago were saying, "We're the outcasts amoungst outcasts" and it was so true!

I couldn't fit in the HPF forum, I certainly didn't fit here; but these were my official Dx's= BPD & HPD and so much of it fits me perfectly; but then there's stuff inside me that constantly breaks that mold.

Psychology is not an exact science. Personality disorders are forever being changed and revamped. Look at the new DSM5- they're still trying figure out the new system and set up out so ofcourse we don't all fit into our neat little PD boxes. Those boxes are currently being rewrapped you're probably just like me and AJ- a big old cluster fu(k of PD madness that doesn't fit anywhere just right; but has enough of one thing to get that special PD 'tag'

My advice to you, as another person who suffers the clust fu(k syndrome of PD inaccuracy, forget the Dx and learn about yourself! No matter what you are, you are you and it's you that you have to worry about- right?

Spread your wings on the various forums, and find conversations and topics that speak to YOU, not your Dx, and learn about yourself through interacting with others. Talk to your shrink/therapist/whatever and instead of bringing up diagnostics, tell them your own personal struggles with the emotions and drives you experience. How they change, the degree in which you shift with yourself, and your perceptions.


There was an excelent thread started here a few weeks ago that got locked before it got started. We've carried that convo onto the HPD boards, and you're welcome to have a look and see where/how/what made some of this stuff happen for me if you like? Maybe you have a simmilar story/life, maybe not; but it's worth a shot: histrionic-personality/topic72577.html#p589283

I really do wish you the best.
I know how confusing this is and how odd you feel right about now and that's not fun.
If you ever need to talk- you're welcome to PM

Take Care
~Alice

Yeah BE, me and Alice are probably very unconventional for borderlines. Welcome to the club. Externally my BPD comes across as a mix between ASPD and HPD so it seems like I have multiple PDs but I wonder if the internal issues of BPD can cause other personality disorders. That may be why almost everyone with BPD gets diagnosed with a second or even third PD. What you're going through is perfectly normal. And like Alice, I'm glad you're questioning the mold of your diagnosis and realizing that people don't fit neatly into these boxes all the time. And there is a very distinct possibility that some people with BPD are just in complete denial about their cold, callous, asocial side.

ajrocker8 wrote:Yeah BE, me and Alice are probably very unconventional for borderlines. Welcome to the club. Externally my BPD comes across as a mix between ASPD and HPD so it seems like I have multiple PDs but I wonder if the internal issues of BPD can cause other personality disorders. That may be why almost everyone with BPD gets diagnosed with a second or even third PD. What you're going through is perfectly normal. And like Alice, I'm glad you're questioning the mold of your diagnosis and realizing that people don't fit neatly into these boxes all the time. And there is a very distinct possibility that some people with BPD are just in complete denial about their cold, callous, asocial side.

Presicely!

The reason why personality disorders are so all consuming (for us) and so resiliant to treatment (for psychs) is because it's something that happens so very deep inside us- the literal CORE of who we are as a person!
Even that sentance can be confusing and contradictory 'Core as a person' because many of us don't have an identifiable 'core' to start with But even though we may fragmented in to pieces (as you say you have a good side and bad side) we are still tied to a block of something conecting those various pieces to some kind of foundation- right? The trick begins by idenitifying the threads of these 'core elements' (what should be an established 'self' in construct) and then bringing them together over acceptance and personal growth.
That doesn't mean you have internalize the bad stuff and hold on to it; but you do have accept it and embrace that part of you as being very real, and also being there for a very real reason.

Once you understand that side of you, and accept it, you can figure out where it came from and why it is there. That becomes very painful at times; but if you want to fight the good fight you will take a sound thwarping every now and again, and that's OK! That's what your therapists and meds are there for- helping you get through the tough stuff

Right now- I would suggest you just take some time to get to know your dark side (not give into it/give yourself over to it/etc...) but investigate it and see how dark it goes, how it's triggered/stimulated, and what function it serves for the 'better' part of you.

Chances are, this dark side, serves a protective function like mine.
I'm not gonna divulge too much in that part because it's something you HAVE to figure out ON YOUR OWN!
I'd be more than willing to probe your cranium to help YOU find your personal truth, and your own answers; but for it work, and really hit home- you need to make those descoveries for yourself- k?

For example, think about your reactions to posters on the forum and what they say/do that triggers you? You don't have to write it down; but think about that and see why they anger you, make you laugh and so on...

Like for me:

WARNING You May TRIGGER

I think the thing that frustrates me the most about this particular forum is that people are always going on about their surface junk.
- "Oh I hurt so bad"
- "I want to die"
- "I hate this..."
- "I can't deal with that..."
- "I feel worthless"
- "No body loves me"
- and on, and on it goes

These are all legit things, mind you, and yeah I have them too; but the thing that frustrates the hell outta me is that no body stands up and looks beyond the surface junk to the deeper issues

OK- so you 'hurt' but WHY do you hurt?
"Because my BF did 'X' to me"
Well:
- what did him doing 'X' make you feel?
- Where have you experienced that feeling before?
- From who? When? Why?
- What did that feel like?
- What was your emotional and literal reaction to that feeling?
- How were those emotions encouraged/dicouraged at the time? Over time?
- How do you feel about it now?

Like the problem is within us, so logically the answer lies there too.

Our emotions are so intense because they're fused into primary emotions (the origional emotion which hasn't been dealt with) so we compact that emotion inside us, store it away for a good long while, and then when things happen it's a raging free-for-all and we loose control

So how do we deal with that?
We go BACK IN TIME and find out the sh*t that happened that's been fused into our current junk in the emotional trunk to understand it, identify it, and then we can disentangle the new emotions when they arise so that they're NOT overwhelming, we're NOT powerless against them, and we see/learn/feel we CAN survive this mess- with the proper tools!

I find that VERY FRUSTRATING!!! And that's usually what triggers my rage towards this particular place- people don't look deeper, they don't try to fix anything; they just whine and comfort surface bruses when there's huge gaping wounds under there that need to heal!

I want to slap them because they're wasting so much of their time and thier lives worrying about the littel things when it's really the BIGGER things that need to be dealt with so that the miniscule tantrums can be bypassed.

Perhaps they remind of me when I was living in my own disordered bubble. I don't know. But I used to feel compassion for some, tried to help a few, and now I just have no time for a bunch of fools that won't help themselves

"I can't do this because it hurts" YEAH! It's supposed to HURT! It hurt going in and it's gonna hurt coming out too!!!

K, I'm getting pretty p*ssy right now, but you see my frustrations and how I actually DO care about these people; but it's their lack of effort that p*sses me off and makes me hate them- right?
Superfluous b*tching gets you nowhere fast!

But do you see how I did that?
Do you see where I addressed the triggers (phrases and statements which trigger my anger) and expressed my own tought and emotions to come to some sort of conclusion?
Am I angry because they remind of more disordered/undirected me at one time?
Perhaps...
But one things is clear- I'm not angry because I don't care/don't like them. I'm angry because I DO CARE and because I care it's frustrating for me to watch them run arround in these circles.

See what I mean?

PD's are classically not active/instigators, we are triggered/responders who act purely on emotion and impulse. Finding those triggers and impulses is so important because once you have them you have something very powerful to work with in your progess

I'm very glad you were brave enough to bring this up B*tch-E because it's very important and a huge part of your process. Identifying and examining the different aspects of yourself is paramount to healing and fixing it!

Peace 2U!
~Alice

Hey B-E!


Its been awhile since I've seen you posting, but I thought that your post was well-written and had some very valid points. We are all not the same, even though the core crap can remain somewhat the same. I can't say that I align with you on all of the criterion that you point out, but I do appreciate what you've had to say, and it has invoked some very deep thought. For that, I thank you, and appreciate what you bring to forum.

I know that you're also a nurse - do you think sometimes you become desensitized to the pain of others because you're "spent" with this so often? I hope that doesn't invoke rage in your or anything, it was just a thought on my part.

My best to you!

AMP

Hi BE

How do you feel about that dark side of you? Do you embrace and accept it, do you feel ashamed that it exists?