How do/would you relate to this?

cboxpalace,
thank you very much in your response and taking the time to making points. it's greatly appreciated.

the part where you state that No, you hate them and essentially vilify them. is what he's been doing, though you've stated it's manipulation, is just a lie? pretty much everything was a lie?

yes on the communication. I've read BPDs do have more difficulty with that I guess. though many do have difficulties expressing themselves. including myself.

yes on the ... my dysfunction ... i thought, at the time, that was the best ... way to tell him. kinda letting him know, it's hard for me too. Even told him why not get together with the girl friend of his he's been talking with lately to help him get over me (come to find out other things, i won't get into that), it seemed ... appropriate and "logical" at the time. you can imagine how many times, including to the day before, where actually seemed like he was set that no matter what i said I was leaving him. how it'll take a long time and doesn't want to let me go, etc ... i don't know if i really loved him, i thought perhaps i did, sometimes it was stronger then other times in that thought. i had difficulties telling him and what he always wanted to hear. he cried the first time i said it to his face. i know that i was ... indeed very consumed with/by him. he did make me feel ... special and there were things i loved. so yes, i was hurt to having to end it but knew that was the best thing ... too many times.
He wanted me to promise him to never leave him and what it'll do if i did, etc ... he forced the ... leaving by his action of physical attack to ensure it this time.

stubborn yes, some friends that know him said, he's not like that (physical attack as well as doesn't apologize) and another said he's just way to laid back, meaning he shrugs everything off as no big deal.
And perhaps justifying i pushed him to that ... point. i'm the first to admit i yelled, screamed, horrible name calling, punched his butt and slapping ... due to our ... lack of communication and seeing eye-to-eye (lack there of).

what i don't get it, how far does one need to go before getting into treatment and counseling?
Are you in any? what was the ... breaking point ... that'll lead one to ... help get themselves to recovery?
i'd like to also ask how the ... cycle of life in relationships typically go?

i'd think that anyone that could be like a "crutch" to someone suffering from BPD/PD would move onto that next person. how long the duration of the relationship lasts are obviously different case by case, person by person, sure ... i've read some are just months, some few years to decades.
but when / how does one go from one to the next? meaning, when does it finally over and they'll stop trying to "manipulate" the prior person and actually "move-on"? how long does it take? Suppose that's also dependent on some variables.

it's not easy trying to understand how someone who goes that far, physical abuse, to not think HOLLY S**T what have I done? I could have killed her. something like that. i can't phantom how IF you actually loved someone as the way he tried to say he was in love with me ... but then some of his actions, such as this, how is that love.
what's it gonna take, for this guy, an actual death? He's been suicidal, i mean pretty bad i was scared and couple of times why i ended up back b/c of these "threats".
This time is completely different. he's attempt in getting something across to me is ... sneaky (can't think of a better word) and he hasn't done the suicidal antics.

i've read it is very difficult for a disordered person to seek help even if they have thoughts about something's wrong and want change ... it's the next steps they struggle in getting to. how or have you taken those steps and what did it take?

cboxpalace,

thank you very much in your response and taking the time to making points. it's greatly appreciated.

the part where you state that No, you hate them and essentially vilify them. is what he's been doing, though you've stated it's manipulation, is just a lie? pretty much everything was a lie?

Your kind of taking some of what I've said out of context a little. I'm not one that believes a Borderline can't love or is insincere about their love. The problem is that so many of us are hypersensitive, when that's triggered disfuntional traits kick in which push people away. I don't know whether or not he loved you, but the possibility exists that his feelings/emotions were true. If you made him extremely angry or sad his way of dealing with the pain may be to make you a hated person. I know this is weird. It makes sense to me, but may be confusing to you. Ask questions if you don't fully understand this. The song is what is manipulating. He sent you a romantic song, that's all about you trying to get a positive reaction out of you. It's the song that, I think, is manipulation. He's trying to draw you back in.

what i don't get it, how far does one need to go before getting into treatment and counseling?
Are you in any? what was the ... breaking point ... that'll lead one to ... help get themselves to recovery?
i'd like to also ask how the ... cycle of life in relationships typically go?

Oy! I was caught in the middle of a bad divorce when I was a young child. I believe this is where it developed. That's the brief answer. From my teen years on I've dealt with major depression. In my 20's, I had a breakdown, suicide attempt, and at that time was dx with bpd. The bpd was never really treated, it was more like this is what you have and that's as far as it went. I was on anti depressants without a whole lot of luck. That was the early 90's. I had another breakdown in approx 2003, had to go out on short term disability, then long term disabilty, and then ssdi. Had several suicide attemps and came close to dying in 2008. I went into therapy when I went onto short term disabilty and have remained in therapy ever since. I haven't had much success, I don't have any hope, I'm tired, it gets old having dealt with this since my teens. I'm not looking for pity. It is what it is. I live for my kids, I'm a great dad, and do the best I can so they won't have to lead a life like mine when their adults. I have no idea what will make him get into therapy, alot will depend on if he thinks he has a problem or not. I was married for 10 years, most of it rocky. I do date, mainly because I'm afraid of being alone. I think my constant questioning of is that good/bad, right/wrong ect gets old, and I don't have much luck. I don't really know the life cycle of others.

i'd think that anyone that could be like a "crutch" to someone suffering from BPD/PD would move onto that next person. how long the duration of the relationship lasts are obviously different case by case, person by person, sure ... i've read some are just months, some few years to decades.

I don't think crutch is a good word. Like I said earlier, I do believe BPD's do want love, and their feelings can be sincere. It's being so hypersensitive that causes problems at least for me.

but when / how does one go from one to the next? meaning, when does it finally over and they'll stop trying to "manipulate" the prior person and actually "move-on"? how long does it take? Suppose that's also dependent on some variables.

Everyone would be different. That's why I say avoid conversations, emails, texts, everything.. close email, change phone if need be.

This time is completely different. he's attempt in getting something across to me is ... sneaky (can't think of a better word) and he hasn't done the suicidal antics.

Doesn't mean he won't!

how or have you taken those steps and what did it take?

see above.

cboxpalace,
thank you for your explanation and patience. sorry, guess that's how i ... perceived it from your response combined with the things i've been reading, etc ... and trying to ... sum it up either it's right or wrong is what will never really be known but only conjecture from all things.

If you made him extremely angry or sad his way of dealing with the pain may be to make you a hated person. I know this is weird. It makes sense to me, but may be confusing to you. Ask questions if you don't fully understand this.

yes, i know i did make him angry. i know and first to admit i treated him ... horribly with my anger, etc ... as stated. and I actually do understand that dealing with the pain made him angry and possibly lash out. but also know that the action was is his own. and just as i was responsible for my ... anger and in lashing out the way i did. i should not have reacted that way, nor should have he. definitely not by putting his hands around my throat then not ... address it. no apology at all, no matter what no one has any right to strangle someone, unless it was life threatening / protect your own life?
with that said, i don't get why he's been doing the things he has been? that's quite confusing.

thank you very much or offering to ask questions.

The song is what is manipulating. He sent you a romantic song, that's all about you trying to get a positive reaction out of you. It's the song that, I think, is manipulation. He's trying to draw you back in.

why is he / would he be trying to get a reaction from me for? IF I dare to say anything would be to remind him what he did by putting his hands on me the way he did and that i hope he's seeking counseling or something to help him. something to that affect. BUT no, i will not respond to it. My reacting to it is me on here to see what others, like you, could give me some insight on the ... behavior, though understand each person is different BUT under the notion of what a BPD suffers ... something rather.

I am truly sorry to hear you have had no success with therapy. is it DBT? and with counseling at all? I've read it's a LONG process and, though difficult, it can happen. it does sadden me to hear about the suicide attempts, especially people with BPD b/c of what emotions it entails and HOW it's so uncontrollable EVEN though you may want to NOT be that way. And also read it's more mental then just personality. Chemically in the brain could be a factor and therapy can't really change that much though supposedly the meds can help some.
Yes, good to hear that you live for your kids and a great dad and to help them. that's great to hear. so you are helping the matter with what you can't help but deal with. At least you have tried and your actions show for them. I do hope you can recover. I've read, basically life long treatment and therapy PLUS age makes it better. Into their 50-60's the intensity gets less?? I do truly wish the best for you and hope it gets less ... emotionally painful in many things.

yes, they can, we are all human, just BPDs feelings are so intensified. BUT what I still have a hard time wrapping my head around and trying to understand is, what can the SO do to help them try to get past it to work it out.
you were in a quite a long marriage, though trying. but all relationships have roller coaster rides, just that one with PD, BPD are at peaks a lot more, is that right? but it can still happen, it's wanted. i've started reading a bit about the "Nons" and how or what they can do and react to to HELP the situation then worsen it.
Which I know I did worsen it by HOW I reacted then someone who has a better understanding of how to work with a BPD.
though this is a bit confusing too ... i read that you can show more understanding and compassion by holding them, telling them how much you care and be more empathetic to the emotions.
oddly, i thought i was going to use that ... psychology at the end by trying to show a more ... sensitive side and crying, and saying how much i care and that i don't want to let him go, etc ... (where part of that came with me asking him to do things to make it easier for ME type thing).

Everyone would be different. That's why I say avoid conversations, emails, texts, everything.. close email, change phone if need be.

certainly but with certain similarities with the ... situation / matter at hand?? so best thing, rather then trying to be more understanding and showing how much one is cared for, it's best to do NC and at some point the BPD person will move on.
Sorry, i chose the word crutch b/c BPD needs someone then no one so to me i see that as someone as a crutch.

going back on, so why is he doing what is doing of late? why not move onto the someone else?
also, i understand and know that BPDs can love, it's in this board and a few posts about it. i do believe he did feel love or strong sense of one.
but is all the things said that made me feel special also said to everyone else in their life that they felt they were in love with? NO one is really that ... special?
somethings i doubt he's never said or done, somethings I think i believe were the 1st time.

in the end, it would have never worked no matter what BUT still makes me wonder IF i only did somethings myself differently? and WHY ... "bother" me with these things now?
what does he want from me

I can only answer this from my perspective, as if I was doing this. The difference being I haven't hit anyone.

When I say he's trying to ge a reaction out of you, I mean a positive reaction. For ie. you read and get this idea of "He does love me", "He does cherish me", "He is sorry" and then go running back into his arms.

The why is because he wants you back or he still sees hope for the two of you being together. It's possible he hated you, didn't want anything to do with you, and now sees the possibility of you two reconciling.

Why hasn't he moved on.. he's not ready too. (see above). This is why if you want to move on, and you want him to move on, you need to really keep to the no contact. At some point he should get it through his head that it's over, there is no hope for the relationship, and then move on.

As to what a SO can do to help alleviate the problems. I don't know. There are some situations where a SO might be able to help. With me, I need things in concrete terms. For ie. If I ask you to go to a movie, and your response is something like, "maybe", "not sure", "I'll have to check", I'm lost. I don't know what I'm suppose to do, and assume your trying to tell me something else. To me there are only two possible responses "yes" you want to go or "no" you don't. So if you didn't say "yes", then your answer must really be "no". Someone might be able to help with this. This is just one thing though. So many of us are so hypersensitive, and read so much into things that it's just impossible, and unrealistic, to help with all situations. Depending on the situation, I'm analyzing everything about you, your words, the tone, and your facial expressions. I'm looking for deception, where the words you choose, your facial expression may be the opposite of what your saying. Depending on what I sense will determine if something is triggered within me. There is no way a person can help with that. If a person can be successful with someone that has bpd it's going to take a person that is strong, understanding, and won't take things personally.

I'll give you a real scenario that just happened this morning, which set me off. I am currently seeing someone. I asked, "Are you coming over tonight?" her response is, "Probably for a little while. I have a lot to do before I leave next week." I've analyzed this and it's telling me she doesn't really want to come over. I wouldn't have a problem with "Yes...". My response, "So your not going to spend the night this weekend?". Her response, "If I do it would be Sat". I have issues with "if I do" which is telling me she's not. My response, "It sounds like you have a lot to do. Go ahead and get all that done and I'll see you at some point when you get back." There's a part of me that realizes this isn't rational, but it's to vague, and rather than obsess on these words all day. It's just easier to say "I'll see you at some point in the future". I could tell her all this, but it would probably come across as needy and weird. It wouldn't make sense to her, but makes perfect sense to me. It makes me feel somewhat stupid. How can someone help with that.

I read some posts from Nons, and they make it sound like were plotters. I didn't plot this, it's my coping skills and what I know. If I go against my coping skills then I'm really uncomfortable because of my lack of understanding. I don't want to be uncomfortable.

absolutely and anothers' perspective is helpful. so of course and thank you.

the "he's not ready to" move-on. Sure this is understandable in anyone's case and depending on situations. and guess the answer goes the same for everyone too, when the person is ready to move-on and really let go. guess i was wondering if there's much difference with someone who's emotions are much more intense and how that plays out. am i making sense?

i don't want to say something incorrectly and trigger.

i tend to think that nothing's intentional in the courting / in the relationship when with a BPD though my goodness some articles I read really makes one sound out ... humh, a player and womanizer "Casanova" i believe the author used. Perhaps there are some that are but to think that all men with BPD are that way makes me cringe. Or vice versa that all women with BPD plays men. It's just awful to have read those. Not to say no on is that way too, just not ALL are. you know?
when i started reading articles i know i posted them to see what others had to say about them. being such a newbie and coming across articles that were heart wrenching was not a great feeling either. and certainly did not want to accept it as the possibility of the truth as I'm trying to understand my ex. As many are left in such shell shock of how things ended more then in a typical relationship. and I know this first hand, meaning i never felt the way i did how that relationship entailed and ended.

i think hearing (reading) about others' personal experiences (i think i noted that) helps and getting others' perspective helps as well. Knowing, of course, each will have their differences.

i thought i knew this man and after what happened i felt like i knew nothing and ... humh, scared (can't think of the right word here) thinking that everything or lot of what he said and did for me (good) may have all been a lie was also quite devastating to be reading. And perhaps one of the reasons i'm asking others' instead?

you had suggested leaving a BPD SO. do you agree with that? hope this is not offensive / trigger ... not sure how to ask it right ... but wouldn't you want your SO to better understand and work with you, support you and help each other to try and make it work? It bothers me that people would abandon and not try. which would go in any relationship but in a BPD one, it's actually extra effort to try to make it work and would you want that instead of leaving you?

on your experience this morning. i actually do understand. similar type of conversations with me too. and really sometimes other variables plays in giving a response. I sometimes really did not know b/c it was dependent on how some other things panned out. So the answer would be maybe or not sure, the beat around the bush response. I recall many times how he actually said just tell me, no hinting around, just be direct. and though i'm typically a direct and matteroffact person, there were things that weren't.

i look / think back to many situations and think IF I had known, really known and better understand and some more knowledge, perhaps i would have done things differently. That i read too, by the SO understanding they can react differently to the situations so it would be a better turn out then worse. I know i made them worse with my normal reactions to situations. And there lies the ... thinking i have and accept my responsibilities in the relationship that ... soured it. And can't help have the burden that i pushed in ... over the edge. NO, i did not deserve the attack, no one does UNLESS life threatening, right? Though, guess one could argue, in his mind it was "life threatening" to him of what I was doing?

i understand what you are saying. i don't know how long you have been with your current SO and hope that it goes well. Does she know anything about BPD and so she can understand and know how to work with it as, yes tender care is important.

on that note, would it make it difference? meaning IF by understanding and how to work WITH a SO so that how the SO reacts is changed to better suit the hypersensitive BPD partner? like if i reacted differently then i did, perhaps it would not have gotten worse?

thank you very kindly.

scared (can't think of the right word here) thinking that everything or lot of what he said and did for me (good) may have all been a lie was also quite devastating to be reading.

To some extent, with this statement, you're giving into this belief that all borderlines are deceitful, don't mean what they say, and plotting. I read a lot of posts where it comes across as if we sit around plotting to see who are next victim will be. Maybe others will disagree, but I believe that many borderlines (at least me) intentions are good, and they mean the words they say. What happens is something is triggered and our coping skills kick in, and that's where problems begin. By that I mean pushing back, manipulation etc. It starts out good, something is triggered, and things become bad. In my opinion, the cycle is this good, something's triggered, bad, resolved to where it settles down, becomes good again, somethings triggered again, and becomes bad, and the cycle repeats itself. It's in these good periods where I believe intentions/words are sincere..Another way of looking at the cycle would be sincere -> triggered -> not sincere -> resolved -> back to sincere. So there's a reasonable possibility that a good portion of his words/actions were sincere, and other words/actions may be disfunctional. I think that is as much thought as you should put into what he meant.

Off topic a bit.. I take issue with several SO or ex SO posts and it usually comes from a Non male towards a female borderline. If you read some of them often you will see something, "when we met I felt sorry for her" , "I felt she needed help" , "I had a lot of empathy for her", you get the point. It's not "we had a lot in common" , "we enjoyed doing things together" "she was my best friend" etc. Then it will go something like.. "looking back I can see all her borderline traits right from the start", "she was really happy", "she took an interest in me" etc. It makes me think a couple of things.
1. A person that is with some "because they need help" is playing the part of a rescuer. Not exactly the most honest trait. It also makes me think the girl was pretty good looking, doubtful they'd play this same role with someone ugly and obese, or the guy is ugly/pathetic and this is the way he can have her by being her rescuer. Anyone playing the rescuer, more than likely, has some alterior motive.
2. All "new" relationships at the beginning are euphoric/happy/lots of interest etc. This makes me think there's a reasonable possibilty the guy was dumped, and now has sour grapes or his rescuer mentality failed.

you had suggested leaving a BPD SO. do you agree with that? hope this is not offensive / trigger ... not sure how to ask it right ... but wouldn't you want your SO to better understand and work with you, support you and help each other to try and make it work? It bothers me that people would abandon and not try. which would go in any relationship but in a BPD one, it's actually extra effort to try to make it work and would you want that instead of leaving you?

It would be nice for people to stick around and try to understand or put in the extra effort. Borderlines, should know or at least try to know, that were difficult. It's not our intent, but that's the way it is. Goes back to coping skills that were learned at a young age. I don't like that people have left me, don't have the patience for me, but I understand why they left. Not everyone can handle/deal with it.

i understand what you are saying. i don't know how long you have been with your current SO and hope that it goes well. Does she know anything about BPD and so she can understand and know how to work with it as, yes tender care is important.

I've been with my SO for only 2months. She knows of my major depression, and that I'm on ssdi. That's embarrassing enough to admit. I have not mentioned the BPD, she would probably be aware of what it is because she's a nurse. Unfortunately, when you read what people post, some articles that are written, there is a very negative stigma to it. I doubt I will ever bring this up to her.

thanks again.

yes i agree and it was devastating to read such things and any glimpse of it being possibly true was not quite bearable and flood of questions come to mind.

In my opinion, the cycle is this good, something's triggered, bad, resolved to where it settles down, becomes good again, somethings triggered again, and becomes bad, and the cycle repeats itself. It's in these good periods where I believe intentions/words are sincere..Another way of looking at the cycle would be sincere -> triggered -> not sincere -> resolved -> back to sincere. So there's a reasonable possibility that a good portion of his words/actions were sincere, and other words/actions may be disfunctional. I think that is as much thought as you should put into what he meant.

this is good way to look at it. and i tend to agree. though i'm far from expert, barely a novice. i just scratched the surface of it in learning BUT my sense is that, yes sincere and certain ... humh, mechanism triggered him. some actions he did and said, i understand better now how or why he did and said. now there are a couple of things i am uncertain and still ... struggle with in knowing if something was true or not.

and given all this, like i said, i feel i was a good part of the factor of how things turned out. though again, no one should ever lay their hands another no matter how unplanned / unintentional that behavior was. No i did not deserve but i can see how one could be pushed pretty far into acting / reacting in ways that's not typical behavior. believe me i did some ... "crazy" things myself when i got incredibly mad in the relationship turmoils. part of me wants to reconcile that and let him know how sorry i am for having been so ... hurtful, though i meant to hurt b/c i got hurt and i felt he did not get it and minimized the importance of, fundamental and basic things. foundation of trust was the biggest issue that started ... our mess. i felt he could never really rebuild that. he felt he did. well, no need to go further into all those details in this.

ok, so, as i thought on staying to work it out if both parties are willing though.

on the "off the topic a bit" section. yes i know what you're saying there. and i tend to agree with you as well on that.

i think that part of me was also the "rescuer" but no doubt i grew deep feelings as well. but torn and confused about what my true feelings were/are. must say this experience was something i never recall ever going through. and don't recall ever feeling so confused as to what it was i felt or feel.
i don't like that it's like ... obsessing over it either. the impact of it all though was/is quite extreme.

i get what you're saying to about your current SO. and yes, being a Nurse, hope she, humh, figures it out to make it work. Not sure if that's the way to say it. I and most seem to ... sense something's not quite right but not know it / fully understand it and therefore don't know how to work with it. I knew something but not enough and my reactions to it all made it worse. had i known better / more, i think i would have reacted differently.

THOUGH, on that note, would it really have made a difference as stated previously? does it really help or ultimately doesn't matter, the overwhelming fear will push that SO away no matter what and no matter how much the SO tries to be more understanding and give more emotional support and love rather then how i reacted it with "tough love", yelling for not coming through, etc ... when he wanted to be held and told he's loved and more caring words.

thank you