Both overt and covert narcissism theory claim that narcissists have little or no empathy for others. I'm not sure how true this is. I believe the description of the covert narcissist fits me very, very well, but I feel my empathy is significant. But could my empathy be more more limited than nons' and having been this way most of my life, I just don't see it? Am I like a color-blind person who's never seen "normally" but is under the illusion that he does? When nons claim so much greater empathy than I do, I'm skeptical, much like "breakaway" in the thread "My Explanation for the "Lack of Empathy" Conspiracy". How does one really measure empathy anyway? How does one quantify it for comparison? I know there are supposed to be precise methodologies in DSM (and other) psychologies, but it just seems so subjective to me in the final analysis.

I'm a vegan. (I'm not bragging about that or trying to engage in moral posturing or anything, and don't want to start an ethical argument on this forum. But I think it's relevant to the claim of psychology and constant accusation by anti-narcs that I don't have empathy.) Maybe I have more empathy for animals than I do people. Indeed I have long be rather misanthropic.

But even so, I've felt empathy for people many, many times. A typical example is when somebody gets their head bitten off in a social situation. The pain I feel for that person is strong and immediate. It's definitely much more than "cognitive" or "intellectual". So something just doesn't seem quite right with this "limited or no empathy" theory, and the whole range and complexity of narc emotional life really seems to get distorted from all this virulent anti-narc rhetoric and ranting.

Sometimes I wonder if the extent I am unempathetic doesn't stem from generally apathy or compassion fatigue. Also, you've got to hoe your own row. There are so many people in ones life that seem to have their own patterns of self-destruction, and it'd drive you crazy wracking your mind (and heart) trying to save them from themselves. So, yes, I admit I've just tended to turn the empathy off to remain sane. That doesn't mean I don't help people. I do.

On a discussion on the NPD forum, "About Lack of Empathy", jasmer said that having 5 of the diagnostic criteria each of the DSM NPD criteria entailed a consistent lack of empathy, even though it may not state it explicitly. I don't quite see this.

Okay, well maybe all this means that I'm not really a narc. Or maybe on a scale of 1 to 10, I'm, say, about a 7. When I call myself a narcissist, I mean it in the old sense. I don't care about the category of "NPD" that much. As I've said, from what I've read about it, I'm agnostic to skeptical of the DSM. Narcissism and narcissists pre-dated the DSM and modern psychology by millenia. Their reality doesn't need to be validated by modern psychology and the DSM, which are only reformulating them in their own technical language as part of their own narrow system. When "the ancients" and the "uneducated" have written and spoken of narcissism and narcissists, they're recognizing essentially the same thing as modern psychologists. My only interest in my own narcissism is how it may be, probably IS, causing me emotional turmoil. Not on whether I get to join the NPD club.

Everything I've read about covert narcissism describes me amazingly accurately---except the claim or implication that I'm some sort of callous monster. Maybe some narcs are more complex that others. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm a monster with a heart.

heracles, your description of your own empathy sounds entirely normal, to me. I don't have a PD, AFAIK, am compassionate (I prefer that word to empathy) and my compassion is definitely limited and context specific. Like you, I have tremendous compassion for animals and am a vegetarian (not vegan) of over 40 years, which I did solely based on the non violence principal. I have no compassion for the demanding (and obviously disturbed) SJWs and other activists. I don't care if they get run over by cars if they attempt to block traffic in their demonstrations. Innocence is a big factor. Victims of wars I feel for because they didn't ask for it. I don't have to know anything about the individuals to care. I guess that's a kind of mass compassion. I could go on but I'm sure you get what I'm saying. A person would be an indiscriminate dope to feel sorry for or have empathy/compassion for EVERYONE, especially those who do wrong. I think that level of caring for mankind can be left to the likes of Jesus Christ and the Saints.

As I understand, lacking empathy is fundamental to the modern definition of narcissism. Dunno if that applied in ancient times. I don't see how you would fit the clinical criteria for the full blown PD. That said, I'm not a shrink and that's [i]their[/i] concern. I'm also in agreement with you on not deferring to "experts" in something as fuzzy as the field of mental health. I read what they write and take it into consideration along with other info. Ultimately, I trust myself enough to be able to make reasonable judgments - with an allowance that I can also be wrong or change my mind.

Enjoy your thoughts and writing very much! Glad I cam across them.