Changing appearance as a defence against self loathing.

Ugly women vs ugly men... If all else is 'normal' and they aren't avoidants than I'd probably agree that women have it harder. Their personality needs to be like a ######6 angel for them to be tolerated. Ugly guys can be dicks and assertive ass holes and still get by alright. But a woman needs to be pretty to get away with being a bitch.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

Asuka wrote:Your're far from ugly JS. You've given me support when I was suicidal and your're one of the best and purest people I've had to pleasure to talk to.

Oh, that 's very nice of you to say. But, you've never seen me. I will just never like my physical appearance.

I know that i am a kind person and that does make me feel good because i think that is the most important trait a person can have. I have always liked that Henry James quote "Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." I think if I had a little more kindness in my life growing up, things would have turned out better for me.

Jessica, many people likes kind people, however some of them didn´t take the time to know these kind people deeply. So they missed the opportunity to know your inner. I really think external beauy has many to do with inner health. In my honest opinion. I tend to generalized. But when I was depressed, hopeless...I feel ugly, really I was ugly or averega but now, that I feel happy and I´m hopeless, I know where I go. Many people says how beautiful am I. Even my pupils realize this fact and tell me" Teacher, I see you better this year". Nobody is really ugly. Our brains capacity is surprising.

CriminallyVulgar wrote:Ugly women vs ugly men... If all else is 'normal' and they aren't avoidants than I'd probably agree that women have it harder. Their personality needs to be like a ######6 angel for them to be tolerated. Ugly guys can be dicks and assertive ass holes and still get by alright. But a woman needs to be pretty to get away with being a bitch.

So you think avoidants ugly men have the worst part if they want to approach to a "normal woman", because they have to give the first step? Old moral tradictions.
And what happen in your opinion with avoidant ugly women? Thay have the bad part again.
Really, I´m not a feminist, but I think women always take the worst part. To begin, we have to be pretty, then if you want a stable relationship you must also have another qualities. I´m not very sure, perhaps we are making generalizations. I´m not a lot of experience but I think if I were ugly I never meet any men or have any relationship, at least if I wouldn´t allowed other people meet me deeply. It´s a very interesting topic, but like Descartes: I only know I didn´t know anything! This is a question for sociologist. (Asuka).

CriminallyVulgar wrote:Ugly women vs ugly men... If all else is 'normal' and they aren't avoidants than I'd probably agree that women have it harder. Their personality needs to be like a ######6 angel for them to be tolerated. Ugly guys can be dicks and assertive ass holes and still get by alright. But a woman needs to be pretty to get away with being a bitch.

This is true. I am ugly in appearance and that in turn makes me a complete failure as a woman. It doesn't even matter what i accomplish in life now. Biologically i am a failure - i have failed in being able to attract a man. I never wanted kids so i dont feel bad about that, but i do feel a lot of grief over not ever being able to find someone to be with.

I am a nice person and i guess i grew up to be so nice because i had to be. It is my only 'worthy' quality (and some would argue that nice is not a quality). I read book a long time ago and i remembered a quote from one of the characters - "One needs no particular talent to be nice. Being nice is what’s left when you’ve failed at everything else."

CriminallyVulgar wrote:But a woman needs to be pretty to get away with being a bitch.

This is so true - but it goes much further than that. I would never want to be a 'bitch'. -its not in my nature. But, you have to be pretty to be treated with respect. Ugly women have no worth in society - they usually end up being abused and degraded. The only men who would ever want me would only want me so they can abuse me. At least i know better to stay away.

CriminallyVulgar wrote:
But a woman needs to be pretty to get away with being a bitch.

Ugly women vs ugly men... If all else is 'normal' and they aren't avoidants than I'd probably agree that women have it harder. Their personality needs to be like a ######6 angel for them to be tolerated.

Not true at all. I knew a woman who was fat ugly AND a bitch. Somehow she managed to get a husband and she had a kid. OK -0 so I know the husband and he's not exactly Mr. Wonderful. But he doesn't seem to beat her anyway.

I know being physically attractive helps. And having a winning personality helps. But there seems to be more to it than that. My guess is pheremones.

I actually paid $95 for some so called pheremones a couple of years ago. It was supposed to be the one they tested on that TV news show 20/20 years ago. They claimed to have some effect. It is really hard to test human behavor like that though. I wanted to see what they smelled like. It was a kind of flowery smell. I was not going to wear it.

Jessica's Hope wrote:This is true. I am ugly in appearance and that in turn makes me a complete failure as a woman. It doesn't even matter what i accomplish in life now. Biologically i am a failure - i have failed in being able to attract a man. I never wanted kids so i dont feel bad about that, but i do feel a lot of grief over not ever being able to find someone to be with.

I am a nice person and i guess i grew up to be so nice because i had to be. It is my only 'worthy' quality (and some would argue that nice is not a quality). I read book a long time ago and i remembered a quote from one of the characters - "One needs no particular talent to be nice. Being nice is what’s left when you’ve failed at everything else."

This is so true - but it goes much further than that. I would never want to be a 'bitch'. -its not in my nature. But, you have to be pretty to be treated with respect. Ugly women have no worth in society - they usually end up being abused and degraded. The only men who would ever want me would only want me so they can abuse me. At least i know better to stay away.

This is tragic.

And it's tragic because it's a dangerously warped perception of the world. Seriously, it's utterly warped and it leads directly to a blatantly good person regarding themselves as apparently somehow less than human.

To begin with:

I am ugly in appearance and that in turn makes me a complete failure as a woman.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Let's go with the notion that you're "ugly in appearance" for a second.

What does that mean in practise?

Any thinking man or woman does not judge a fellow human being based solely on their looks. Do you? If you see an "ugly" man or woman, do you avoid all contact with them and walk the other way?

This is not airy fairy, la-la-land I'm talking about. I'm talking about rational, logical human behaviour.

Yes, appearance does play a big role, particularly initially, but not so big a role as to render getting to know somebody nearly an impossibility - at least to a thinking person, and yes we do exist, although in the world we live you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

So.

We've established that someone who is actually capable of functioning moderately in a mental capacity, wont avoid contact with an individual based solely on appearance.

On to the next step.

Your appraisal is that you're a "biological failure", due to your failure to attract a male.

First point:

As humans, we have evolved beyond the point where rutting with a view towards producing more of ourselves, is viewed as the only worthwhile pursuit in life.

There's a whole lot more to life than that.

You are not a failure as a woman.

Please, please do not call yourself that because of your experiences with men. It's terribly misguided.

Men can be god damned moronic at the best of times and I should know since I am one.

So put tritely: not yet being able to find someone to be with cannot be construed as failing on your part.

It simply cannot be.

Look, I know, and have known genuinely beautiful, smart, intelligent women and I've known smart, good looking men too.

So often they're single. They're lonely.

Y'know what the biggest barrier seems to be, besides luck?

Thinking.

Sometimes a person can do too much of it.

So often these same people have the most extreme self depricating notions about themselves. Particularly the women. I don't know what started society on this path, that's another discussion, but particularly women.. it's as though they're never supposed to ever be happy within themselves.

Bleh.

In a round about way I'm trying to get to the point that it's not your appearance that dictates whether you'll find someone.

It's partly how you view yourself, partly luck, partly the manner of relationship you want.

From the little I know of you, I think I can tell that you're a gentle, intelligent woman, who has been through more than her fair share of bad times.

I happen to score gentleness and intelligence more highly than boobs and butts - and I'm not alone on that, not by a bloody long shot.

So look, this isn't a pep talk, a sermon, or an indignant outburst of rage.

This is one sane individual, looking at someone who needs to realise that they cannot value their self worth based on relationships they have or haven't had thus far.

You're a good person, and any guy would be damn lucky to have such a caring individual as a partner.

The only men who would ever want me would only want me so they can abuse me. At least i know better to stay away.

So yeah, this bit leaves me pretty much speechless. And from my ranting above, you know that must be something.

You need to begin to being a nice person to yourself and stop torturing yourself, and belittling yourself.

I know my instinct when I see a person being so horrible to themselves is to try and reach out in some way and make them realise what they're doing.

Only the cruellest most savage individuals would try and abuse someone like you.

You are a good person, you desperately need to realise this.

This is easier said than done. It's possible to feel #######5 about yourself while realzing that your reasons are stupid and illogical. It's a vicious circle too, it feels even worse to think that all your $#%^ is only the result of your flawed thought patterns.

And it's tragic because it's a dangerously warped perception of the world. Seriously, it's utterly warped and it leads directly to a blatantly good person regarding themselves as apparently somehow less than human.

I can see how my thoughts have become warped over the years. But, it is due to my experiences and also just seeing how other people have been treated as well.

Any thinking man or woman does not judge a fellow human being based solely on their looks. Do you? If you see an "ugly" man or woman, do you avoid all contact with them and walk the other way?

I would never turn away from someone like that, in fact I would probably feel more compelled to talk to them. I know that not all people judge solely on looks, but so many do. And maybe they do for many different reasons. I know growing up with my acne I was told by so many people that I looked dirty and they thought I didn’t bathe. Sometimes unattractiveness is equated with uncleanliness and disease. And many times is it is equated with being bad or evil. I have known men who have been labelled as creepy and scary by women just because they smiled or said hello. An innocent and friendly gesture – but it is viewed as something sinister because the guy was unnatractive. Would these women think the same if the guy was attractive?

On to the next step.
Your appraisal is that you're a "biological failure", due to your failure to attract a male.
First point:
As humans, we have evolved beyond the point where rutting with a view towards producing more of ourselves, is viewed as the only worthwhile pursuit in life.
There's a whole lot more to life than that.

Its true – humans are a lot more than just breeding machines. I wouldn’t want to suggest that people without children are failures. I don’t even want kids. But every time I turn on the Discovery channel or read some science magazine they always seem to going on about facial symmetry and hip ratios and all this ‘evidence’ of how some humans are biologically better than others. Science used to be my friend. Now it just shows how inferior I really am.

You are not a failure as a woman.
Please, please do not call yourself that because of your experiences with men. It's terribly misguided.
Men can be god damned moronic at the best of times and I should know since I am one.

I don’t want to appear as though I blame everything on men, because I know many, many shallow women who judge men based on appearance too. Women can be horrible too. Humans in general can all be awful.

Y'know what the biggest barrier seems to be, besides luck?
Thinking.
Sometimes a person can do too much of it.
So often these same people have the most extreme self depricating notions about themselves. Particularly the women. I don't know what started society on this path, that's another discussion, but particularly women.. it's as though they're never supposed to ever be happy within themselves.

Well, it is easier to control a population if they feel bad about themselves. They will buy products out of desperation and also join religions too. That may be why society continues to feed the cycle of self-hatred.

In a round about way I'm trying to get to the point that it's not your appearance that dictates whether you'll find someone.
It's partly how you view yourself, partly luck, partly the manner of relationship you want.
From the little I know of you, I think I can tell that you're a gentle, intelligent woman, who has been through more than her fair share of bad times.

I agree that how a person views themselves plays a big part. A sense of self worth and healthy self-esteem are very attractive traits in people. And I think that in turn can send out signals that can bring about a good relationship. But, its hard to create self-esteem out of thin air. Having some positive experiences helps. Its hard to battle years of being told you are ugly.

I happen to score gentleness and intelligence more highly than boobs and butts - and I'm not alone on that, not by a bloody long shot.

I know there are many men out there who don’t care about perfect bodies. I really hope that I am not coming off as someone who hates men, because that’s not true. I just get sad because they never seem to like me.

This is one sane individual, looking at someone who needs to realise that they cannot value their self worth based on relationships they have or haven't had thus far.

I know logically that sounds right, but i cant shake the feeling that people avoid me because they either really dislike me, or sense that there is something wrong with me.

You're a good person, and any guy would be damn lucky to have such a caring individual as a partner.

Thank you for saying that. That is very kind.

So yeah, this bit leaves me pretty much speechless. And from my ranting above, you know that must be something.
You need to begin to being a nice person to yourself and stop torturing yourself, and belittling yourself.
I know my instinct when I see a person being so horrible to themselves is to try and reach out in some way and make them realise what they're doing.

I know I have to do something about the way I feel about myself. I have recently started therapy. But I just have so many years of people telling me how worthless and ugly I am and its so hard to silence those voices. And its not like it was the same 3 people or anything. I have moved a lot in my life and I always seem to encounter people who would put me down all the time.

Only the cruellest most savage individuals would try and abuse someone like you.

I know – but there are so many cruel people out there – men and women. And they do prey on people with low self-esteem. It happens all the time.

Apologies for coming across ranty and stuff. Your use of the word "failure" tipped something off in me and I knee-jerked.

I felt like I had to say something, because you're a good person and you shouldn't be reduced to feeling so lowly about yourself.

No-one here should, for that matter.

Of course that's a hell of a lot easier said than done for anybody with AvPD.

You raised some very good points, such as the definition of a creepy male quite often seems to be; a friendly, well meaning male who's less than dashingly handsome.

That's a large part of the reason I look down most of the time and where possible avoid looking at women.

Also, I didn't construe any of your comments as coming from a position of hatred, or dislike of men in particular and I wasn't trying to argue against that - apologies for giving that impression.

Unfortunately as you said, both sexes can be cruel.

I've experienced it from both, and for some pathetic reason, to this day, walking by groups of girls always brings me back to being a teenager with braces and glasses, and being jeered. And I feel like utter $#%^.

Bleh.

Anyway, I hope in time you begin to get a much greater level of self esteem. You're a good person, you're smart, eloquent and are deserving of a much better sense of self worth - and the associated better quality of life that will bring.