For victims... the stupidity of the other side

Wow snowdrop!

I wouldn't touch him after him saying "he found someone else". Yuck.

But of course I understand and respect the fact we are all different.

My N still keeps sending SMS's to me, trying to reach me, etc.. I never reply, but he still occasionally does it. I just got one recently after months of silence ( I really thought- hoped he had moved on). Now that I'm much more aware of his personality, I can recognize/identify his motives easier, and I know his motives to contact me are everything but love, understanding or care.

If you don't reply to 10 messages, and he still sends them, is it stalking? I guess stalking is when these messages are sent within a short time-frame, which they weren't ( they have been sent in the course of several months), so technically I can't report him for stalking. What do you think? I can't ask the phone company to ban his number either, because the messages are civil. What do you suggest, other than ignoring them completely? Maybe not opening/reading the messages? He also keeps changing his ph. numbers. Any ideas?

....

LifeSong wrote:The last part of accepting my mother's NPD, Normal, was the 'letting go' part. It was the hardest part for me. It took the longest and hurt the deepest. My child's heart still wanted to believe that someday, somehow, she'd change and see what she had done and was doing to me, and want to become 'my mommy'. It's an understandable childish wish, of course. It was just startling to me to see that - even as a grown woman with her own family and successful career - when I stripped away the intellectual reasoning and felt my emotions, I still held on to the hope for change. It was very very difficult for me to give up that hope.

Hey Lifesong

I realise of course that all my reading on the subject and all the intellectual knowledge that I have gathered in the last year is for nothing. I understand I am still powerless to change anything. That is also difficult to accept. Whilst I also know that this is a 'process' I want it to speed up please.

In some ways this part is the most difficult as it requires the absolute acceptance that not only has hope died - but also the happiness of an individual that I cared about and could see a great potential in. That is a terrible thing:- like a living death if you will. There is no comfort in knowing that he will not be happy - none at all.

pancakes wrote:Lifesong, you mentioned co-dependency, and I would like to read more about this. Can you suggest some books that would be of use to someone in my situation?

Hey Pancakes

I have ready that Melody Beattie's books are very useful for Co-dependency, have you come across her at all?

Two-Roads

two_roads wrote:What do you think? I can't ask the phone company to ban his number either, because the messages are civil. What do you suggest, other than ignoring them completely? Maybe not opening/reading the messages? He also keeps changing his ph. numbers. Any ideas?

Can you change your own number?

Hi Normal?
I haven't heard of Melody Beattie's books. I will take a look on Amazon. Thanx.

pancakes wrote:Hi Normal?
I haven't heard of Melody Beattie's books. I will take a look on Amazon. Thanx.

pancakes,
As a starting place to learn about codependency, I would start with Melody Beattie's books. I have them all and use them in the groups I lead. Start with Codependent No More, and then read Beyond Codependency. I also use her book Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps.

I have found lots of good information via CoDependents Anonymous, a 12 Step program for codependents. Like AA and other 12 Step programs, there are CoDA meetings but not nearly as many available as there are in AA. Look in your phone directory to see if there is a listing for CoDependents Anonymous in your area. I lead groups for codependents, and other groups, and I always recommend that people join ongoing CoDA meetings after the group ends. There is a large book written by this 12 Step fellowship called Co-Dependents Anonymous. It’s very useful. CoDA’s website is http://www.codependents.org for the USA; International website is http://www.wscoda.org.

If you can recognize any of these thoughts, then CoDA might be right for you:
If he/she changed, everything would be all right.
I can't control this pain, this person or what's happening.
It's all my fault
I keep getting into the same bad relationships.
I feel so empty and so lost.
Who am I?
What's wrong with me?

Here are some common patterns in those with codependence issues; these might sound familiar to you:

Codependents:
• Have difficulty identifying feelings
• Minimize, alter or deny their owns feelings
• Perceive themselves as being completely unselfish, dedicated to the wellbeing of others
• Have difficulty making decisions
• Judge their thoughts, words or actions harshly as not being good enough
• Are embarrassed to receive recognition, praise or gifts
• Have difficulty asking others to meet their needs or wants
• Value other people’s approval of their thoughts, feelings and behaviors over self-approval
• Compromise their values and integrity to avoid rejection and other people’s anger
• Are very sensitive to others’ feelings and assume the other person feels the same
• Are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long
• Put aside personal interests and hobbies to do what others want
• Accept sex as a substitute for love
• Believe others are incapable of taking care of themselves well
• Become resentful when others refuse their offers of help
• Freely offer advice and guidance without being asked
• Have a great need to be needed
I could go on and on with these, but perhaps some of them sound like you. If so, you might want to explore codependency as an issue; it also might be useful as another way to treat your depression and even your agoraphobia.

Another book I use in my groups is by Pia Mellody, a renowned expert on codependency, called Facing CoDependence – What it Is, Where it Comes From, How It Sabotages Our Lives. Pia also has a workbook called Breaking Free which, when coupled with the book, strongly offers a framework for change. Pia takes a psychological approach to codep, and says that recovery from codep comes from clearing up the toxic feelings left over from childhood, and learning how to reparent oneself by intervening on the adult symptoms of codep. She describes an effective approach to recovery that includes both therapy and self-help processes.

My experience with people who’ve been in long term relationships with those with NPD or strongly traited narcissists is that, without exception, codependency exists in the person. It either was there in the person to start with (and thus made them susceptible to narcissistic ways), or developed as a result of long-term interactions with profound narcissists. If a parent is strongly narcissistic, it is a given that codependency will develop in the child, and linger into adulthood until it is recognized, treated and resolved.

Hope all this helps you and others


Lifesong

.......

Lifesong, snowdrop and two_roads your stories were helpful to me. Im in the waffling, confused stage. Thought it was resolved but not really. Your stories ring alot of bells.

LifeSong wrote:My experience with people who’ve been in long term relationships with those with NPD or strongly traited narcissists is that, without exception, codependency exists in the person. It either was there in the person to start with (and thus made them susceptible to narcissistic ways), or developed as a result of long-term interactions with profound narcissists.

Lifesong I don't doubt that this is right. The whole dynamic would be very difficult to understand otherwise wouldn't it?

Normal? wrote:

LifeSong wrote:My experience with people who’ve been in long term relationships with those with NPD or strongly traited narcissists is that, without exception, codependency exists in the person. It either was there in the person to start with (and thus made them susceptible to narcissistic ways), or developed as a result of long-term interactions with profound narcissists.

Lifesong I don't doubt that this is right. The whole dynamic would be very difficult to understand otherwise wouldn't it?
May I ask a final question or two about Co-Dependency?
Firstly - do you feel that it can exist (or be provoked in a person) in just the one relationship - or is it invariably part of a pattern?
Is Co-Dep about behaviour or about thought-processes? For example if an individual felt responsible for another or were very sensitive to their feelings would they need to ACT on those attributes or just experience them? If they were able to rationalise/analyse those feelings would they still be Co-Dep?
Finally Lifesong (how long is a piece of string question!) how long, or to what extent, can an individual who is not Co-Dep last in a relationship with a Narcissist? Is there a developmental 'arc' in such relationships? Is there a cut-off point?
Sorry - I am trying to glean your knowledge!

I like dialoguing with you, Normal, and with many others here. I don't mind questions when I have time and interest to answer, and that's where I find myself right now. May not be true much longer as my caseload is going way up next month.

My understanding and experience of codependency is that usually a present day relationship which triggers codep in a person is a recall of either a childhood setup or a former traumatic relationship in which codep thinking/feeling/behaving was inculcated. That describes by far the onus of codep in the majority of people. Having said that, I do know of some situations where an otherwise stable, integrated personality ‘tweaked’ into a codependent personality in response to the pressures of a particular situation or person. These though are typically short-lived before the person responding codep ‘wakes up’ and thinks “What the hell am I doing?”

All personality/temperaments express themselves first via thought-processes, Normal. Thoughts express as feelings and as actions. It is our internal reality which defines us. For instance, I am an introvert but I behave extrovertedly often. Most would think I am quite social and outgoing. But I know my own thoughts and reactions and I often have to ‘talk myself into’ chatting or staying a bit more time with people or letting go of my impulse to just leave and get alone. In the case of codep, it is first how you think, how you feel, how you react internally that would be the first cut into identifying codependency tendencies. Yet, a person can challenge their own thinking, their own emotional reactions, their own impulses and behave quite differently. With sufficient times of challenging and choosing to think the opposite or override emotions with a broader range of emotions, or not act on impulses in predictable patterned ways, codependent ‘systems’ can be broken down and concomitant actions will follow. That’s the basis, in a nutshell, of CBT or DBT.

Your last question – How long/to what extent can a non-codep last in a relationship with a narcissist – involves a long answer with quite a few variables. But here’s a piece of the answer in short version. My answers aren't based on mild narcissism but rather on profound narcissism or NPD.

How long? As long as they’re willing to put up with the narcissistic behavior.
To what extent? Depends on what the non-narcissist requires out of a relationship in order to ‘stay’.
Relationships with profound narcissists typically require codependent behavior; narcissists will insist on it, and non-narcissists will devolve into it as they continue to ‘try to get him/her to love me’.

From the perspective of the non-narcissist, the relationship can last via a number of choices (note that these don’t address quality of life issues):
• The non-narcissist (n-n) can yearn and hope and demand and pray and punish and entice and game and otherwise actively engage with the narcissist; these are all codep behaviors due to the reality of the dynamics between the two people.
• The n-n can ‘check-out’ of the relationship, shut down emotions, repress feelings and eventually thoughts, and just become numb. They can live a life of mainly going thru the motions, which if you think about it, isn’t that far from how a narcissist lives their life.
A variation on the above, the n-n can shutdown to the narcissist but not shut down his/her life completely but find enjoyment and sustenance elsewhere through family, friends, work, I nterests, etc. This is quite difficult to do over the long haul.

Thank you Lifesong for your generosity of time and spirit!

LifeSong wrote:My understanding and experience of codependency is that usually a present day relationship which triggers codep in a person is a recall of either a childhood setup or a former traumatic relationship in which codep thinking/feeling/behaving was inculcated.

This makes lots of sense to me and I see the dynamic.

LifeSong wrote:Relationships with profound narcissists typically require codependent behavior; narcissists will insist on it, and non-narcissists will devolve into it as they continue to ‘try to get him/her to love me’.

Yes - this is also very familiar and 'insist' is the perfect word in that there is often a 'relentless' demand for that behaviour. I think it can take many forms though and that can be confusing. For example, excessive 'neediness' or playing the victim feels like the abdication of control when it is the opposite isn't it? When this stance fails to provoke the required Co-Dependent response it is often replaced by intimidation and rage/cruelty and that can be absolutely baffling but I see now how the two are provoked by the same 'insistence'. And that the insistence/need is key.