Need a sanity check

In my signature I've linked to my first post where I explain the background of my story.

For now I'd like a sanity check because I am finding that I am perceiving certain things about my ex-girlfriend (who currently works in my same office as a secretary and sits 25 feet from me) and then doubt my perception and get confused in my head because I want to be fair. I am not certain she is HPD, but seems signs are pointing that way.

OK, so as I already posted at my first thread, a week ago she came into my cubicle and offered Easter chocolates to my cubemates, but not to me. She pranced in with an Easter basket looking quite precious and sweet. I mean, I can barely help loving her to pieces she is so endearing sometimes. When she got back to her desk, she sent me an instant message saying "I would have offered you chocolate, but I know you would have given me an ugly look, so if you want some you can come get it off my desk." Well, a few days earlier she went around to all the cubicles (there are about a 100 of us in this office area) asking everyone if they wanted to join teams for a bean bag toss (a peer morale booster). She was so giggly when just a few days prior I had expressed my pain at how broken up I feel over things between us, so would she be able to tone it down a little out of respect that I was always good to her (she left me for an ex-roommate in October who has since moved out of state but she says they are still "together"). So when she got to asking me about joining a bean bag team, I was at a loss for words and just looked at her in bewilderment and frustration. Because she had said some very hurtful things to me a few weeks prior to that, and now here she was acting nice to me like nothing had transpired.

Anyway, I did not respond to her IM about the chocolates, though in my mind I was trying to figure out a constructive way to do so...I had a very busy week at work and not a lot of time to think about it. Then, yesterday, she came into my cubicle again (she does this, she pops into my cubicle more than most others to visit with my cubemates) and showed Easter candy to two who sit right next to me...one fellow whom I don't think she'd have reason to talk to at all except that he sits right next to me, and a woman who just moved in this past week and I am already surprised she is in my ex-gf's "fan club". Then, a bit later, she comes in again and asks the woman (I'll call her TK) if she got her email -- an invitation to go out after work with some others. Well, right away I am smarting from this because my instinct is that she is doing this on purpose to hurt me -- to say "Arthur I'm going out and it isn't with you." Because there is no reason she has to come into the cubicle and ask TK if she got the invitation...she could have IM'd her so as not to be in my face...plus seems weird to me she has already befriended TK as if she is a new close friend. Then, while talking with TK she mentions how the night before she went to a certain restaurant, which is in my neighborhood, just down the street from my house...and she knows this. So again, I'm triggered that she is trying to get at me and make me feel jealous and hurt that "Arthur, I was so close to you, but I wasn't with you." She then proceeded to be very gregarious around the office the rest of the day. In fact, I have gotten to often wearing my earphones and listening to music loudly so I do not hear her.

After some thought, and trying to keep my emotions under control, I did write her an email questioning her behaviors, and asking her what her motives are, and is she aware of how insensitive this is? Why does she feel compelled to continuously look for ways to "rub it in" when I was a man who only wanted to be so good to her? That I've already told her I feel quite broken up inside, and asked her to tread a little lighter.

So my question is, am I perceiving her ulterior behavior accurately? I don't want to be unfair.

She wants to hurt you. Because you dared to stand up to her. don't you know you were supposed to be her good little pal that she could dominate?

have a gander at this:

Coping with Hoovering:

If somebody who has been treating you abusively starts to treat you well, there's no harm in letting them knock themselves out and give yourself a break, but you must be careful not to take the bait to erode your boundaries, settle for less than you deserve, stop doing things that are healthy for you or stop exercising your own independence.

What NOT to do:

1. Don't change any of your boundaries or allow them to be broken during a hoover.
2. Don't relax or give up on any consequences of previous poor decisions for the abuser.
3. Don't stop any healthy activities or relationships you may be engaged in elsewhere.
4. Don't assume the hoover will last forever.
5. Don't use a hoover to bargain for a better life. You are setting up the abuser to break a promise and setting yourself up for a disappointment.

What TO do:

1. Remember that mood swings are a normal part of a number of personality disorders and that what goes up must come down.
2. Accept that highs and lows are a part of everyone's emotional life and that, for a personality-disordered person, those may be more intense and lead swings in behavior.
3. Maintain all your healthy lifestyle habits and relationships with others.
4. Take the long-term view. Wait a year.
5. Get yourself off the roller coaster. Position yourself so that your safety and happiness isn't dependent on a personality-disordered person's mood.

great post!


Mine hoovered, and I almost fell for it..........

And then she showed her bad side again..........

And I had to go...........

hello Arthur,

my ex-girlfriend (who currently works in my same office as a secretary and sits 25 feet from me)

She pranced in with an Easter basket looking quite precious and sweet. I mean, I can barely help loving her to pieces she is so endearing sometimes.

The probable hi functioning HPD I know also has a charming and endearing personality. Possibly what Millon described as "Vivacious NPD;" the zest and energy of a hypomanic narcissistic personality that also requires affirmative attention (see also "The People Pleaser. A good girl narcissist" thread by Margeharris in the NPD forum narcissistic-personality/topic74928.html

She was so giggly when just a few days prior I had expressed my pain at how broken up I feel over things between us, so would she be able to tone it down a little out of respect that I was always good to her (she left me for an ex-roommate in October who has since moved out of state but she says they are still "together")...So when she got to asking me about joining a bean bag team, I was at a loss for words and just looked at her in bewilderment and frustration. Because she had said some very hurtful things to me a few weeks prior to that, and now here she was acting nice to me like nothing had transpired.

Sounds like a fundamental lack of empathy; she probably doesn't care...if someone just broke up with someone, most people would realize that the other is likely hurt, and so at least out of respect they would stay away, at least for a while. Also, some Cluster B PD's (esp BPD and HPD) dissociate themselves...it's like their mind has been so preoccupied with something they have forgotten everything else, and it takes them a second or two to put your name back together with you face. So she could have forgot your expression of pain, either just out of a narcissistic lack of interest, or mild dissociative amnesia, or both - narcissistic pre-occupation can become mild dissociation.

Then, yesterday, she came into my cubicle again (she does this, she pops into my cubicle more than most others to visit with my cubemates) and showed Easter candy to two who sit right next to me...one fellow whom I don't think she'd have reason to talk to at all except that he sits right next to me, and a woman who just moved in this past week and I am already surprised she is in my ex-gf's "fan club". Then, a bit later, she comes in again and asks the woman (I'll call her TK) if she got her email -- an invitation to go out after work with some others.

Five possibilities come to mind:
If she is dumb, that was stupid.
If she is from the sticks or the ghetto, that showed no class.
If she is pissed at you, that was anger.
If she is disordered, that was un-empathetic.
If she has an antisocial personality dimension, that was uncaring and sadisitic.

Well, right away I am smarting from this because my instinct is that she is doing this on purpose to hurt me -- to say "Arthur I'm going out and it isn't with you." Because there is no reason she has to come into the cubicle and ask TK if she got the invitation...she could have IM'd her so as not to be in my face...plus seems weird to me she has already befriended TK as if she is a new close friend. Then, while talking with TK she mentions how the night before she went to a certain restaurant, which is in my neighborhood, just down the street from my house...and she knows this. So again, I'm triggered that she is trying to get at me and make me feel jealous and hurt that "Arthur, I was so close to you, but I wasn't with you."

Trust your instincts, Arthur. In my opinion you are correct, she was trying to hurt you. Even if you are wrong, it doesn't matter. This woman has too many red flags.

So my question is, am I perceiving her ulterior behavior accurately? I don't want to be unfair.

We second-guess ourselves and start looking under every stone, because we don't want to face the truth about someone and how they took us. I know this from my own experience. Face the truth, son, and start to heal.

She then proceeded to be very gregarious around the office the rest of the day.

That's a classic descriptor of a histrionic personality.

In fact, I have gotten to often wearing my earphones and listening to music loudly so I do not hear her.

Your protective instincts are already leading you to initiate "no contact." Good call.

After some thought, and trying to keep my emotions under control, I did write her an email questioning her behaviors

Be careful. She could convince your supervisors that you are harassing her and you could be disciplined, even lose your job. If she keeps bugging you, you could file a sexual harassment claim against her, but be careful. Since you already have a romantic history with her, she could turn the tables on you. All else being equal, in my part of the world women who are harassing guys often win when it comes to legal matters. Better to just stay away and ignore her. If you give her no emotional feedback or attention, in time she will leave you alone. Keep your strength for when she senses she is losing you.

...and asking her what her motives are, and is she aware of how insensitive this is?

If she is disordered and unaware, asking her about her motives and sensitivity is like asking a lioness why it wants to kill and eat a wildebeast, and her tendency will be to keep her motives hidden from you, just in case she needs you again (and be aware that the chances are, she will return to you at some point - once again be ready for this).

Why does she feel compelled to continuously look for ways to "rub it in" when I was a man who only wanted to be so good to her?

HPD or other disordered women experience love and affection as trauma and conflict. Could be because as little girls their parents fought all the time, and since parents by definition love each other, in their childhood mind they learned that conflict is love. Or, they were more directly abused by someone, usually a male family member who was supposed to care for them (father, uncle, older brother, etc., ), and you are being punished for what they did. Or, they are in part predatory by nature: lacking empathy, narcissistic, and even sadistic - have you ever seen how a cat likes to play with a mouse before it kills it? Becoming disordered is a complex process that involves genetics, developmental biology, and dysfunctional familial and social surroundings.

That I've already told her I feel quite broken up inside, and asked her to tread a little lighter.

Again, remember the lioness and the wildebeast...this might make her more aggressive and she might feel more empowered to f--k with you..

The ultimate goal is to move on and find another woman, a healthy one. If you pick another one similar to this one, you need to look at yourself: here is a good thread from the past re the characteristics of guys who get involved with HPD or other disordered women:

"Addicted to an HPD?" by wisdom histrionic-personality/topic50763.html?hilit=Nons

Hang in there; you will make it through.

best,
Orion

Thanks, Wineaux, for that. I've read about hoovering before, several years back. This is a good reminder. It seems to also go hand in hand with trying to figure out a more honorable way to act toward my ex-gf and boundaries are a part of that. I also would like to try to be more compassionate, though it seems from outward appearances I'm the one suffering and wish for HER mercy.

It's complicated. She hurts me, and I feel compelled to assert myself and tell her the impact of her behavior. But I'm sure she isn't use to, as ALWN said, someone standing up to her. She then feels hurt herself, so she acts out again toward me.

Yet when I step back from my own pain, I see a woman who is still very much a little girl who was abandoned and neglected by her parents, bullied as a child, taken advantage of sexually by men, abused and assaulted. So her coping mechanisms when hurt became "I will not let you bring me down, you won't have power over me, I won't be shamed." Even if in certain cases she may be in err and even if actually I am one of the good guys. So I can't help but admire this aspect of her.

Hi Orion, thanks for your comments; all very good and helpful. I apologize if we got off to a rocky start with my first post...I think I was at the time particularly touchy due to being rattled by my possible HPD ex-gf.

The probable hi functioning HPD where I work also has a charming and endearing personality. Possibly what Millon described as "Vivacious NPD;" the zest and energy of a hypomanic narcissistic personality that also requires affirmative attention (see also "The People Pleaser. A good girl narcissist" thread

I suppose I will have to study NPD more to know if this fits my ex-gf. After reading the thread of this link, it isn't resonating particularly. The word "vivacious" certainly fits, and, having studied up on bipolar in the past, there have been times I wondered if she was hypomanic. In fact, when she was telling me about her suicide attempt prior to her marriage failing/ending, she said the hospital wondered at first if she might be bipolar, but seems that was ruled out. Afterwards she was in therapy for awhile, and it seems it did give her the courage to follow through on the divorce, and she to this day seems much more stable and grateful for life. But, people can be in therapy for however length of time and still not have a crucial aspect uncovered. As i said in a previous post, she has coping mechanisms where she will not let something bring her down for long -- at least as outward appearances go -- and thus the vivaciousness.

Sounds like a fundamental lack of empathy; she probably doesn't care...if someone just broke up with someone, most people would realize that the other is likely hurt, and so at least out of respect they would stay away, at least for a while. Also, some Cluster B PD's (esp BPD and HPD) dissociate themselves...it's like their mind has been so preoccupied with something they have forgotten everything else, and it takes them a second or two to put your name back together with you face. So she could have forgot your expression of pain, either just out of a narcissistic lack of interest, or mild dissociative amnesia, or both - narcissistic preoccupation can become mild dissociation.

Well, we didn't necessary just break up, but, as I listed in my original post, she would draw me in as if things were through with her ex-roommate, now long distant boyfriend, and then, after some inquiry and us drawing perhaps just a little too close, drop it on me that she is still with him...so it would feel like a fresh breakup to me again. Yet, to her, even though she might tell me some harsh things, such as "I am erasing you from my life" and things she knows hit on my biggest vulnerabilities (such as stating what a great sex life she has with the current boyfriend), in a short time it is like these words were never said and she is "touching back" with me to ensure she has some semblance of connection with me still. So yes, dissociation/amnesia has crossed my mind...that she seems to have almost forgotten what transpired and her part in it. Also there has been times where she does seem to be so preoccupied with something happening in her life that she is unable to give due attention to something that may be happening in my life or between us. Or she will use something happening in her life as an "excuse" to put me off. For instance, one time I wanted to discuss our dynamics and she said with overwhelmed exasperation that her oldest daughter was recently hurt and she just is not able to focus on that right now. Or she has to help her youngest daughter with homework. Or when I wrote her a nice thanks at Thanksgiving, her dog died, so she had no reciprocation. That's it, she becomes preoccupied, but is not able to follow up at a later time. Because it wasn't like I wanted to be unreasonable. Anything to do with her children I fully expected them to come first.

Five possibilities come to mind:
If she is dumb, that was stupid.
If she is from the sticks or the ghetto, that showed no class.
If she is pissed at you, that was anger.
If she is disordered, that was un-empathetic.
If she has an antisocial personality dimension, that was uncaring and sadistic.

Well, I can see how all 5 of these may fit, the middle 3 in particular. I mean, I do not think she is dumb at all...I will defend her intelligence fiercely...but, she does seem to have a learning disability...yet she's managed to achieve an associate degree...so I am proud of her. As for the sticks, she grew up in a small town and it seemed to be somewhat of a rough town too -- as I said, she was bullied -- so I think she achieved some street smarts, which doesn't necessarily equate to being tactful. As for anger, I can see it demonstrated in passive aggressive ways. And lack of empathy, that is apparent.

Trust your instincts, Arthur. In my opinion you are correct, she was trying to hurt you. Even if you are wrong, it doesn't matter. This woman has too many red flags...We second-guess ourselves and start looking under every stone, because we don't want to face the truth about someone and how they took us. I know this from my own experience. Face the truth, son, and start to heal.

Well, it is a relief to have my instincts confirmed. I don't think so much that I don't want to face the truth, so much as I feel reluctant, for example, to label her as having HPD, or question her character, because I can see how there could be "reasonable doubt" or at least a "shadow of a doubt", that would make me feel I have to eat crow...because I don't want to be unfair...and she seems happy so how dysfunctional is it for her? And I've spent time in Al-Anon where we are told not to take another's "inventory". And, I could see how, if I attempted to, with compassion, broach the topic of HPD with her, I could be "gas-lit".

That's a classic descriptor of a histrionic personality.

Well, I thought so...it seems HPD is a bit more subtle and broad than just what the DSM criteria describes. For example, when she gets vivacious or gregarious...I wouldn't necessarily say it comes through as "attention seeking" -- but maybe that is just my perception, because I have heard others in the office say about her that she is that way for attention, interestingly enough, and they don't know the nature of our relationship.

Your protective instincts are already leading you to initiate "no contact." Good call.

On one hand, wearing my earphones feels a bit cowardly...like I should be tough enough and man enough to hear anything she says and not be affected adversely. But I've noticed that, as much as her behavior may be the result of trauma, I too was feeling traumatized...in fact after our last falling out I found myself even starting to shake a little when she'd enter my cubicle. I started feeling, on days where she was out "sick" (happens fairly often) I was feeling relieved. And even after she'd go home for the day, like a small weight was lifted. But, you know, I'm not quite satisfied. I wish I was steady enough to endure some contact so I could be a true anchor in her life. After all, I believe in part that is something that drew her to me to begin with...I was a steady guy and kept my bearings with her...but then she started to get to me romantically and I wasn't able to maintain the rock-steadiness I had before. I feel a failure as a man in a way...like I just was not quite the epitome of manhood. As a therapist friend of mine said, she became disappointed in me, I stopped being my better man self...in fact at one point she called me a "little man". And I probably do have some issues around this because I am a shorter fellow and have an unusually small penis due to a birth circumstance which I won't go into. But for a spell I had that "little man" mastered, so I felt as worthy as any other man...but I lost it.

Be careful. She could convince your supervisors that you are harassing her and you could be disciplined, even lose your job. If she keeps bugging you, you could file a sexual harassment claim against her...Since you already have a romantic history with her, she could turn the tables on you...Better to just stay away and ignore her. If you give her no emotional feedback or attention, in time she will leave you alone.

Well, my previous manager was a 10 year friend of mine (I'll call her DS), and I did confide in her as she knows us both and she did come out in support of me, while also being respectfully fair to her (my ex-gf). DS is the first one who clued me in that my ex-gf (I will call her TL) is likely thriving off attention I give her, so TL likes keeping me hooked. I don't think DS has any knowledge of PDs, but this is just woman instinct talking. Women seem to sense these things about other women though they don't have official psych language for it, necessarily. DS did tell me to be careful lest TL should claim harassment by me, but, honestly, I have my doubt that TL would because of the very fact that she would then lose my attention in any form. The truth is, there have been men at work who have truly harassed her, with sexual comments/innuendo and even questionable touching, and while initially hurt by it, she ultimately ends up maintaining a "pal" relationship with them. DS left our company a month ago, and my new manager, JW, is also someone I have known for years, and DS let him know I was struggling with something at work. I ended up telling JW that there is a person in the vicinity that I had a relationship with and am trying to manage that with some dignity, as I feel it is important for my personal growth to feel I succeeded eventually with this, but I am concerned about it because i do have some rough days. For now we have left it at that. I have 22 years in with the company and have a clean record. TL has a few years in only, but she is definitely very popular and competent at her job. We are a large company and these situations have come up before and when two people were in a relationship, HR doesn't usually look at it as a harassment matter, just a falling out because you can get into he said/she said. However, after Friday, where TL was "taunting" me in my cubicle, I did nearly go to JW and ask him if he could have her not come into my cubicle anymore unless it is strictly work related. But, a friend of mine suggested I try the email to TL first to see if I could appeal to her sensitivities. I don't use company email for such matters. I have not received a response. But as you say:

Keep your strength for when she senses she is losing you. If she is disordered and unaware, asking her about her motives and sensitivity is like asking a lioness why it wants to kill and eat a wildebeast, and her tendency will be to keep her motives hidden from you, just in case she needs you again (and be aware that the chances are, she will return to you at some point - once again be ready for this)

It is true, she won't reveal much about her internal workings. It could be she isn't quite cognizant of them herself. She blasted me this last major flare up about how her new boyfriend "knows me better than I know myself" when sometimes I wonder if it isn't actually me who knows her better than she knows herself and she was just trying to get my gizzard. She plays her cards close to her vest, whether conscious of it or not.

This keeping my strength for when she senses she is losing me, or beware that she will return at some point -- this fascinates me. I don't really want her to lose me, I want to be able to handle her, whatever she presents. For some reason I feel this is important for us both, but I don't know if I can manage it. We'll see. There were a couple times in our relationship where I felt she was being unreasonable and I attempted to draw a line in the sand...she felt quite shaken up by this...in fact she was visibly worried about losing me. Sometimes she'd grow quite meek and almost whisper for me to please understand where she is at. It broke my heart and I felt like an ogre. Other times she'd attempt to take an upper hand like she was in position to reject me instead. But honestly, for the most part, I have to give her credit. Because I did feel anxious about losing her, and often she surprised me with reassurance that she wasn't going anywhere...something I wasn't use to from women. So I almost feel sometimes that my fear is what did end up driving her to the roommate. At any rate, interestingly, TL has mentioned to me before how a woman will sometimes try to reconnect with a man who was good to her even if she left him for a bad boy type. I truly don't know what type her current boyfriend is, I don't know much about him, though a couple things I was not impressed by, though a couple other things made him seem ok. Who knows. As a roommate he was not in the picture much. With him officially out of state now, she has attempted to keep me close at hand. When we've had falling outs, it is not long before she makes an overture to me as if to whitewash anything of conflict had occurred. But she can be very patient. At times I think of how she is like a dog you ask to go sit in a corner, yet the dog slowly, slyly, and with an air of innocence inches back into your space.

HPD or other disordered women experience love and affection as trauma and conflict...in their childhood mind they learned that conflict is love. Or, they were more directly abused by someone, usually a male family member who was supposed to care for them and you are being punished for what they did. Or, they are in part predatory by nature: lacking empathy, narcissistic, and even sadistic - have you ever seen how a cat likes to play with a mouse before it kills it? Becoming disordered is a complex process that involves genetics, developmental biology, and dysfunctional familial and social surroundings.

Again, remember the lioness and the wildebeast...this might make her more aggressive and she might feel more empowered to f--k with you..

All I know is as a child her mother was alcoholic and her father was not very present. She was given up for adoption along with her siblings. I know her brothers were abused sexually, but she has never disclosed if she ever was. I am familiar with the topic of sexual abuse due to my girlfriend before her who was likely BPD. With TL, I haven't necessarily sensed that I'm being punished for anything that occurred in her childhood, but i have often felt punished for ways exes treated her...or she would think I was acting a certain way an ex was, but I wasn't. For example, in her marriage her ex became unhappy with his job and decided to quit though it was a very good paying job. At times at work I get frustrated with the big company dysfunction. After 22 years, it can get old. One time she seemed distressed and said "I just know you hate it here, and I feel like you take it out on me." And it is true that the project I was working was particularly frustrating due to mismanagement, but I can't think of any time where I took it out on her...she was always the highlight of my day and brought a smile to my face. Work frustration was very separate. So I felt some transference (if that's the correct term). And there were times i told her, I felt like she was testing me to be sure I was really true and good and able to love her no matter what...and ironically that she was the one taking things out on me because of mistreatment in her past by men.

The ultimate goal is to move on and find another woman, a healthy one. If you pick another one similar to this one, you need to look at yourself: here is a good thread from the past re the characteristics of guys who get involved with HPD or other disordered women:

"Addicted to an HPD?" by wisdom histrionic-personality/topic50763.html?hilit=Nons

Well, I admit, as I already stated, my previous gf was likely BPD and when I healed from her and made a lot of personal growth, I was at a point where I thought "if I date another woman, I am ok with her being quite healthy without any complicated background issues, or else issues she has healed from well." But then TL happened...and we were friends for many months before becoming more involved and she did not seem to have the same level of dysfunction as my previous gf (CA). Upon reflection now, I can see where CA had some areas of greater self-awareness and function than TL and certainly vice versa. But, they do have some striking similarities, which perturbs TL because she will say CA was f-ed up. But with TL, since she came into my life, and our bond grew over time, I came to feel maybe this is my purpose...that I am meant to correct certain failings I had with CA and be a more steady anchor with TL. So I took it on. I mean, there are men who can be with a disordered woman and vice versa and it works. Again, I wouldn't say TL's HPD is at the severe end. If TL is not the woman for me in the end, but maybe someone else, who knows how she'll be. In some ways women who have never been through anything of challenge are boring, as my life has had some tremendous challenges that I've surpassed. But I can see if TL is not the one, then I will likely be single for quite awhile healing and then leave it to fate if I meet another woman who captures my interest.

As for the link of traits of HPD attracted guys...that's as long as things I write! So would take a long time for me to comment on each aspect, though it was very interesting. Suffice it to say for now, some things mentioned are smack on for me, other things not really at all, and some things were traits of mine when much younger, but I have outgrown them through life experience and maturing.

Hang in there; you will make it through.

Thank you...I figure I have no choice but to.

Hey Arthur
My apologies to you as well re "the rocky start;" I was outta energy that day; if my response seemed a bit curt, it was more the result of a bit of burn-out.
Your case is similar to mine, but I am working off my experience of course; I am aware that your ex g/f might be not as severe in her behavior as what I have experienced, so take my accounts and any advice with that grain of salt in mind.
All people are dynamic and subject to change; if a genuinely healthy relationship or friendship emerges from prior conflict, then that should be welcomed by anyone. At the same time, we all need a certain amount of prudence, since our mental health should be as treasured as our physical health. I would proceed with a friendly yet somewhat more detatched attitude, keeping Wineax's important post re hoovering and boundaries in your mind.