accusations / honesty ...

for some time now i've been having a few difficulties with my special friend. and yesterday they came to a head, for want of a better expression, when she pointedly told me twice that she didn't believe me. i've known for a long time that she has mental health problems but i've been unable to pin down exactly what because she refuses to ever talk to me about them. but i'm coming to the opinion that she has some form of scizophrenia. anyway, she has now started to incorporating me into her delusional beliefs and is claiming that i'm working for some organisation that is persecuting her and that i'm having her followed. whilst i can listen fairly dispassionately to her saying these things about other people, as an aspie, when this is applied to me and i get accused of being dishonest when i deny it, i get a bit rattled. so, i told her rather bluntly that what she was telling me was non-sense, which objectively it is. but that might not have been the most compassionate response on my behalf. it's just that i take my honesty very seriously and don't like it questioned lightly. anyway, she has now threatened to delete me from her mobile phone, which is how we keep in touch, given that she lives some considerable distance from me. so, all this may be completely academic. but i think i should perhaps seek some sort of an understanding of this situation because i do feel seriously out of my depth at the moment.

The biggest question that came to mind while reading this is "why are you diagnosing her?"

With friends, the biggest thing I learned so far is to just "be there" in a non-judgmental way, and to be flexible...really flexible (as much as possible), to things people may do. It's hard, sometimes...and with some people who I've called friends I've had "my fill" with...but I know patience wins out in the long run.

I'd just try and talk with her, but not about her problems. I was talking to someone, primarily, about her problems and it really screwed up what friendship we had. I went too far, too overboard on some stuff, and it hurt things in the long run. Instead, give a little space and just talk to talk, and "be there".

TDT wrote:The biggest question that came to mind while reading this is "why are you diagnosing her?"

for the same reason that anyone seeks a diagnosis: so they can better understand what they're dealing with and take appropriate steps to aleviate or negate the condition. i actually found this webpage very helpful ...

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophre ... ptoms.aspx

... in as much as whilst i can appreciate that what she tells me at times makes no sense at all, she clealy can't. however, i'm currently little close to understanding how best to handle this situation. clearly, being blunt about the truth of this situation doesn't work very well. so, i need to find a different approach.

TDT wrote:With friends, the biggest thing I learned so far is to just "be there" in a non-judgmental way, and to be flexible...really flexible (as much as possible), to things people may do. It's hard, sometimes...and with some people who I've called friends I've had "my fill" with...but I know patience wins out in the long run.

and this i have done for the past 3 years. but these problems aren't getting any better. in fact they appear to be getting worse. but this may simply be that she's being more open with me about what's going on in her head. and they're putting a severe strain on our relationship. to the point were, as i stated, she "threatened to delete me from her mobile phone". that worries me deeply. also, it seems to me that it's difficult to truly love someone that's accusing you of being involved in their persecution, as they see it. i was at the point last night of saying to myself: 'perhaps you'll just have to let her go'.

TDT wrote:I'd just try and talk with her, but not about her problems. I was talking to someone, primarily, about her problems and it really screwed up what friendship we had. I went too far, too overboard on some stuff, and it hurt things in the long run. Instead, give a little space and just talk to talk, and "be there".

i don't talk to her directly about her problems unless she mentions them to me first. and even then i tend to passively and non-judgmentally just listen to what she tells me and try to reassure her that i love her. but this doesn't seem to be enough and i was rather hoping for some guidance on how to handle: a) my aspie tendancies of being blunt and brutally honest and b) her schizophrenia in general, which, from what i read in the above webpage, i am fairly convinced it is.

PS: it did cross my mind that this might be better posted on the 'schizophrenia forum'. but i wanted to see what people had to say about the aspie aspect first.

Dagnabbit, I started replying but my computer lost it!

Let me try to remember what I was saying.....
First of all I'm totally with you on hating it when my honesty is questioned, that is one of the rare things that really flips my switch! Not many things set me off, but that does!

OK here was my main point: Each person is the ONLY one who can deal with and fix their own issues. There's nothing you can do to get her to realize or change, except to be there for her. You can "suggest" that she get help, but once you say it it's up to her to do something about it. For you, what I would do is (and this is easier said than done I know!), you have to tell her that you'll be there for her if she wants help, but otherwise you're not going to stand for being treated this way. You're not going to listen to it. She can talk to you about anything else, but you're going to ignore anything she says about accusing you of ludicrous things. Tell her that you wouldn't do such things, period, and that's the end of that story. And if she goes on about it, log off and tell her to come back when she wants to talk about anything else.
By the way, I did do this with my husband when, in the past, he accused me of dishonesty in some bad ways. He hasn't done this in a long time, since learning that I'm not a "typical female" lol, but when he did, the way I handled it was that I would refuse to discuss it. I would just say "That's ridiculous, and I'm not even going to dignify that accusation by discussing it", and then I would refuse to talk about it any more. I might ask why he might be in a place where he's thinking crazy thoughts, or something like that, but the one thing I would not do is defend myself..... Because going on the defensive is the worst thing you can do when you're accused because it make you look guilty. Counter-intuitive, but I have found that that's how it is! Of course my husband is a guy, and he's NT, so pretty much opposite of a female who's not NT, but there it is for what it's worth.

Bottom line is, you can't be responsible for her. Not her thoughts, not her feelings, nothing. You can only suggest and support. You can hope, but you can't force.

I hope it works out for you!

slugger, have you seen the film 'a beautiful mind'? well, this situation is very similar. she really can't help thinking the thing that she does. and she really can't see how irrational they are. and she really does think i'm not telling her the truth when i contradict her. any rational approach is doomed to failure if it involves directly challenging her perception. and that's where i'm stuck because that's exactly what i would and did do. i just doesn't work because there isn't a rational framework in her mind to build upon, as far as i can see.

she did get back to me today and apologise. but the way she phrased it makes me wonder what she was actually apologising for. she said "i have to apologice for yesterday" and then went on to say she wasn't very well. but to my rational mind that sounds more like she didn't want to apologise because at the core of her being she doesn't believe her perception is wrong. rather, she realises that she upset me and wants to smooth over that issue. the only glimmer of hope here is that to some degree she's aware of her illness, though even that i think she's largely in denial about too.

Yes, I understand, and I still stand by what I said. But what I should have added was that you just need to decide whether you want to accept her "as is" or not, knowing that this behavior is going to persist. If you decide to stay, then you have to accept it. But in the end you really should do whatever is best for YOU..... And it's not selfish to say that. Regardless of whether her actions are conscious or even under her control.
It's good that she seems to be starting to accept that something might be wrong, but I'm just saying that you can't base your relationship on what she may or may not do about it, and you have no control over what she may or may not do about it. So don't complicate your life by trying to work it out FOR her, that's on her, and you just need to decide what you will tolerate or not tolerate.
Her actions are up to her.
You just have to decide if you want to live with her actions or not.

not everything in life is black and white. and i'm nearly 10 years older than her. i feel more than a little protective of her. so, it's really not a matter of me walking away. i couldn't do it.

shock_the_monkey wrote:not everything in life is black and white. and i'm nearly 10 years older than her. i feel more than a little protective of her. so, it's really not a matter of me walking away. i couldn't do it.

OK, well at least that sounds pretty black and white to me, at least you are clear in your decision to stay with her. Which brings me back to my original reply, that you can be there for her and still be with her, just don't respond when she accuses you. From what you say, you have a clear understanding that it's HER deal, that it's really not about you, (in other words, whoever she was with she'd do the same thing), and so you know that you don't have to take it personally when she does this. I know that's not always easy, but just try to remind yourself of that.
It's still on her to help herself, but I'm sure it'll be nice for her to know you're there. I would still say to not discuss things that don't make sense. You can be nice about it, for instance: "I love you but I'm not discussing this when you're like this. I'm here for you, but that stuff isn't real, and I'm going to give it life." Something like that.

slugger wrote:OK, well at least that sounds pretty black and white to me, at least you are clear in your decision to stay with her.

i like the use of the word 'decision' here!!! there has to be a better description for 'decisions of the heart'. but off-hand i can't think of one.

slugger wrote:Which brings me back to my original reply, that you can be there for her and still be with her, just don't respond when she accuses you.

i think, perhaps, the trick here is not to 'react' rather than not to 'respond'.

slugger wrote:From what you say, you have a clear understanding that it's HER deal, that it's really not about you, (in other words, whoever she was with she'd do the same thing), and so you know that you don't have to take it personally when she does this. I know that's not always easy, but just try to remind yourself of that.

that is one thing that has changed. being able to pin down her mental health problems to a specific condion and read up on that condition has certainly helped in making me realise this. at least i can now make the distinction between what she says that is 'her' and what she says that is 'symptomatic' of this condition. otherwise, where's the personal relationship???

slugger wrote:It's still on her to help herself, but I'm sure it'll be nice for her to know you're there.

now, i have to say i'm not convinced of the former part of this. part of the denial is the desire to resist help, be it self-help or help from others and, from what i've seen, especially the medical profession. not that i can blame her entirely for that. i've suffered far too often at their hands myself to be entirely in favour of their treatment of people with mental health problems. but i think the latter is undoubtedly true. it's just a bit sad that one of the characteristics of schizophrenia is that family and friends are often see as the cause of problems by the sufferer.

slugger wrote:I would still say to not discuss things that don't make sense. You can be nice about it, for instance: "I love you but I'm not discussing this when you're like this. I'm here for you, but that stuff isn't real, and I'm going to give it life." Something like that.

i can see how this might work with someone who is basically rational. my problem with this approach is that basically she isn't. and i think she really need some degree of reality fed back to her to try to get here compass pointing in the right direction, for want of a better expression. at least that's my perception currently. that might change with experience.

shock_the_monkey wrote:i like the use of the word 'decision' here!!! there has to be a better description for 'decisions of the heart'. but off-hand i can't think of one.

Yeah I know what you mean. From an aspie POV, "decisions of the heart" sounds like an oxymoron.... But it's really not!

shock_the_monkey wrote:i think, perhaps, the trick here is not to 'react' rather than not to 'respond'.

Yeah, I would agree with that, that's a good clarification.

shock_the_monkey wrote:that is one thing that has changed. being able to pin down her mental health problems to a specific condion and read up on that condition has certainly helped in making me realise this. at least i can now make the distinction between what she says that is 'her' and what she says that is 'symptomatic' of this condition. otherwise, where's the personal relationship???

Yeah, that's good that you had that realization, it should definitely help, and be a relief to be able to think of it like that!

shock_the_monkey wrote:now, i have to say i'm not convinced of the former part of this. part of the denial is the desire to resist help, be it self-help or help from others and, from what i've seen, especially the medical profession. not that i can blame her entirely for that. i've suffered far too often at their hands myself to be entirely in favour of their treatment of people with mental health problems. but i think the latter is undoubtedly true. it's just a bit sad that one of the characteristics of schizophrenia is that family and friends are often see as the cause of problems by the sufferer.

Undoubtedly you can be a key helper for her. The one thing that you just have to remember is that ultimately you are not responsible for her, and whatever she does (or doesn't do), is NOT a reflection on you. That's really all I'm trying to get at.

shock_the_monkey wrote:i can see how this might work with someone who is basically rational. my problem with this approach is that basically she isn't. and i think she really need some degree of reality fed back to her to try to get here compass pointing in the right direction, for want of a better expression. at least that's my perception currently. that might change with experience.

Yeah, like you said it comes down to the difference between "reacting" and "responding". So basically, as long as you don't let her "suck you into an argument". "some degree of reality fed back" is certainly reasonable!