Please help me find the correct sub-forum

Hi all,

I recently discovered Psychforums when I realized I had several traits/symptoms consistent with Aspergers....

Other than Aspergers, I have another topic that I'd like to get more insight or advice, but I can't seem to narrow down the correct forum (don't really know which category to browse).

In my opinion my wife was verbally abused by her father. He is has many good qualities, but he has a temper and he isn't the most compassionate fellow. He doesn't mind yelling loudly at someone to tell them that they have no sense (paraphrasing the many times I've heard him go off).

In my opinion, This effected her whole family in different ways. She being the youngest of three girls received alot of negetive feedback (in different forms) from every member of the family. Also because she lived in such a loudly opinionated household she never deveolped the ability to make decisions on her own. She was usually told (in a loud and demeaning manner) that her way was wrong, not only wrong but ridiculous, and furthermore "here is the way it should be done". Their whole family is actually still close, spend time together and on the surface get along wonderfully, but I can really tell that eggshells are still being walked upon around her father so as not to "incur his wrath"

In short, I believe she projects her fear of her father onto me, even though I am nothing like her father.

My marriage of almost 20 years has never really clicked in the way that I feel it should regarding just general partnership harmony and cohesiveness. She doesn't see us as equals and she expects everything that comes out of my mouth to be demeaning and in some telling her that she is a "horrible person". When she tries to help make decisions, her opinion is usally "what she thinks I would want" not necessarily what she thinks is right. Consequently she walks on eggshells around me as well. I can't seem to get her to relax, she avoids spending time with me, and when we are together I have to think about how she will interpret everything I say. If I let my guard down and just speak candidly, it often is misinterpeted and WW3 breaks out, usually ending with her in tears. I can't talk about my own needs or issues because she only hears me telling her she has shortcomings, she can't hear me say to her "I need some support here". When I try to help her with issues, she doesn't hear advice, she only hears me telling her she is stupid for not having thought of the things I am suggesting.

I could write several pages of my opinions and how all that has effected our marriage, but I'll save it till I find the correct forum, or a discussion is started here.

Thanks in advance for any help!

tonyo

Hi,
Do you know what sort of things would make your wife's father start yelling? Is there a pattern to what triggers him?
As a wild guess, he could have OCPD traits. This is a little summary of what an OCPD parent may be like.

Maybe your wife needs some help to build her self-esteem? Also if her parents' relationship was unequal and abusive, she may not be aware of what a healthy relationship looks like. Is she open to talking about the problems in your relationship with you (or with a counsellor)?

hi,

Was she always like that? I do not understand. You have been married for twenty years.Havent you ever talked about her childhood or any problems she had possibly encountered with her family?Well in every family there are problems, there is no such a thing as a perfect family.The thing is to try not to repeat the same mistakes your parents did, and learn from that.
I believe there is something else that troubles her.Try talking with her in a calm and sweet way and remind her how much you love her and she means to you, and that you will always be there for her.I do not see any reason why she will not confide her concerns to you

Hi Javert and thanks for the response.

javert wrote:Hi,
Do you know what sort of things would make your wife's father start yelling? Is there a pattern to what triggers him?

I didn't grow up with him so from her child hood I only know what my wife has told me, but one is example is : if a 10 year old girl doesn't know the diffrence between a phillips head and flat head screwdriver, she is loudly questioned:"YOU DON'T KNOW what a philips head screw driver is?!?!?!?" More recently, if my mother-in-law forgets to lower the boat motor in deeper water, she gets berated.

javert wrote: Maybe your wife needs some help to build her self-esteem?

Undoubtedly

javert wrote:Also if her parents' relationship was unequal and abusive, she may not be aware of what a healthy relationship looks like.

This is true also......to a degree. We have had this discussion many times, but in her mind, when we have this discussion, no matter how calmly, lovingly, patiently, she quickly starts seeing the discussion as me telling her she is failing as a wife and mother (doesn't know the difference in a flat head and philips head).

javert wrote:Is she open to talking about the problems in your relationship with you

We have talked about it many many times. Often ends up with her crying and proclaiming she's not a terrible person, sometimes it ends without the crying and her saying she understands, agrees, knows some things to try, and is encouraged, but that lasts about a day and she falls back into her old patterns. Most often it quickly morphs into her saying that I am way too critical of everything she does, but from my point of view, if I ever say anything short of how wonderful she is, there is a strong chance that she see's it as critical.

javert wrote:(or with a counsellor)?

We have been to two different counselors, but the sessions don't get anywhere. When we meet with a counselor her responses to questions are always "the right thing to say", not the reality of our situation.

Hi Confused,

confused13 wrote:hi,

Was she always like that? I do not understand.

Yes, I believe she has been since we met. It took maybe 5 years or so before I started realizing what was happening. She was good at covering up her insecurities. I suppose I was young and didn't always pick up on it when she was only saying what I wanted to hear - I assumed we just happened to agree.

confused13 wrote:You have been married for twenty years.Havent you ever talked about her childhood or any problems she had possibly encountered with her family?

Many many many times

confused13 wrote:Well in every family there are problems, there is no such a thing as a perfect family.The thing is to try not to repeat the same mistakes your parents did, and learn from that.

I agree wholeheartedly

confused13 wrote:I believe there is something else that troubles her.

That's what I am hoping to get some insight upon. I've been living with this, thinking about it, and trying to help it improve for 15 years, but we can't seem to overcome. I'm hoping for some new ways to look at it .................
I mentioned that I recently realized I have many aspergers tendencies. We had a discussion about that and she started beating herself up for not realizing it herself. Instead of seeing it as a revelation or a helpful twist on how to communicate, She just see's it as another list of things she has to do perfectly or be branded a terrible wife. (That's her projecting the wrath she got from her father growing up onto me IMO)

confused13 wrote:Try talking with her in a calm and sweet way and remind her how much you love her and she means to you, and that you will always be there for her.

90% of our converstations (we've had many dozens over 15 years) follow that model in my opinion. Unfortunately I am human and the 10% of the time I am less than "sweet" further brands me as a monster

confused13 wrote:I do not see any reason why she will not confide her concerns to you

Unfortunately she finds it very difficult to have a two-sided discussion with me (she calls these arguments, I call them typical pro-and-con problem solving discussions between two life-partner adults ). She projects her father's typical responses when she was a kid onto me before we even start. No matter what I say or how I say it she hears what she thinks she will hear and somehow in her head it turns into me pointing out her inadequaecies, even though most times we are talking about everyday issues that need to be dealt with in a family. Like what to do with our children when their grades drop for example. She thinks that I think it is her fault if our kids make low grades, I don't think that, nor do I say it or even imply it. She can't accept that I just want to brainstorm with her to come up with a plan to help our kids. It always turns into "what a terrible mother she is" - her words not mine.

The reason she doesn't confide in me is: She doesn't want to talk about anything in her life that she doesn't do perfectly. Even though she knows I know, she doesn't want to talk about it with me because she learned as a kid that having imperfections carries a sentance of being loudly belittled by the adult male figure in her life. I am not at all like that.

I appreciate the responses and the opportunity to write more.

For the 15 years I've been dealing with this, I've always wondered what I could do differently (short of limiting communication with my wife to heaping praise and nothing else ) What I could personally adjust or present in a different manner that would make a difference.

I'm wondering if learning more about myself and aspergers may help, but I'm also hoping to find an appropriate subforum to browse and watch that may have folks who are dealing with very similar issues.

Thanks again

tonyo wrote:We have been to two different counselors, but the sessions don't get anywhere. When we meet with a counselor her responses to questions are always "the right thing to say", not the reality of our situation.

Perhaps this is because she wants to be perfect for the counsellor, just as she wants to be a perfect wife?

Would you consider going to a counsellor by yourself? Or is there someone else you can talk to? Whilst people with Asperger's are known for being less empathetic and blunt, from the way you describe it, it sounds like you are already making a lot of effort to support your wife. Having an objective person to discuss things might be helpful. Maybe they could give you new ideas or honest feedback on your behaviour - which could give you confidence in knowing that you are not doing anything particularly wrong.

tonyo wrote: I've always wondered what I could do differently (short of limiting communication with my wife to heaping praise and nothing else )

I think this would be a really bad idea. I think you would just be encouraging/enabling her paranoia of criticism and her fear or rejection. I would suggest talking to her as if she were a healthy adult. Don't go out of your way to criticise or antagonise her, but don't tiptoe around pretending that she's perfect. She is not perfect, and you don't need her to be perfect or to pretend that she is perfect.

tonyo wrote:I'm also hoping to find an appropriate subforum to browse and watch that may have folks who are dealing with very similar issues.

You or your wife may like to look at the forum here: http://ocpd.freeforums.org/
It's for people affected by OCPD or extreme perfectionism - whether they be sufferers, or the children or spouses of sufferers. So you both may find posts that you can relate to. If your wife gets to the point where she recognises that she has a problem and decides she wants help, the community there seems quite supportive.

tonyo wrote:What I could personally adjust or present in a different manner that would make a difference.

I'm wondering if learning more about myself and aspergers may help

I think self-knowledge could definitely be helpful, but keep in mind that you will not be able to fix this problem by yourself - no matter what you do. To move forward I think your wife has to recognise that there is a problem and that she is contributing to it. If you want to help her reach that point, don't play into her games of pretending that she is perfect or that she needs to be perfect (or that anything else in your lives needs to be perfect). You should be able to tell her when she has made a mistake, as long as you do so respectfully.

Javert,
thanks very much for your input........

javert wrote:

tonyo wrote:We have been to two different counselors, but the sessions don't get anywhere. When we meet with a counselor her responses to questions are always "the right thing to say", not the reality of our situation.

Perhaps this is because she wants to be perfect for the counsellor, just as she wants to be a perfect wife?

agreed

javert wrote: Would you consider going to a counsellor by yourself? Or is there someone else you can talk to? Whilst people with Asperger's are known for being less empathetic and blunt, from the way you describe it, it sounds like you are already making a lot of effort to support your wife. Having an objective person to discuss things might be helpful. Maybe they could give you new ideas or honest feedback on your behaviour - which could give you confidence in knowing that you are not doing anything particularly wrong.

That is great advice... I do need someone that will be objective to talk to... no close friends or family. Alot of aquaintances who may be willing to help, but I have the "I hate to bother them" mentality. I have recently started zeroing in on some folks at our church who I have no doubt would be willing to try to help. However, I hesitate to throw my wife under the bus by talking about our issues with people we both know.

I'm impatient with counselors............ I expect it to take many sessions to gain enough understanding of our situations and both our personalities in order to make progress. However, Your having wrote that advice will inch me closer to actually talking to someone. Thank you.

javert wrote:

tonyo wrote: I've always wondered what I could do differently (short of limiting communication with my wife to heaping praise and nothing else )

I think this would be a really bad idea. I think you would just be encouraging/enabling her paranoia of criticism and her fear or rejection. I would suggest talking to her as if she were a healthy adult. Don't go out of your way to criticise or antagonise her, but don't tiptoe around pretending that she's perfect. She is not perfect, and you don't need her to be perfect or to pretend that she is perfect.

I agree it is a bad idea and I am no where near settling for "giving in". I've spent brief periods of days seeing what would happen if I try, but she just thinks we are getting along great and is releived that she doesn't have to feel bad for not "being perfect", and I just can't take the charade. It's not just me not telling her if she does something "wrong" (IMO), It's everyday conversation about parenting or running the household or simple advice etc that I would have to be very careful about what I say and how I say it...

javert wrote:

tonyo wrote:I'm also hoping to find an appropriate subforum to browse and watch that may have folks who are dealing with very similar issues.

You or your wife may like to look at the forum here: http://ocpd.freeforums.org/
It's for people affected by OCPD or extreme perfectionism - whether they be sufferers, or the children or spouses of sufferers. So you both may find posts that you can relate to. If your wife gets to the point where she recognises that she has a problem and decides she wants help, the community there seems quite supportive.

I will certainly take a look at OCPD forum........THANK YOU very much for suggesting. Hopefully I can find some tidbits that will help our situation.

javert wrote:

tonyo wrote:What I could personally adjust or present in a different manner that would make a difference.

I'm wondering if learning more about myself and aspergers may help

I think self-knowledge could definitely be helpful, but keep in mind that you will not be able to fix this problem by yourself - no matter what you do. To move forward I think your wife has to recognise that there is a problem and that she is contributing to it. If you want to help her reach that point, don't play into her games of pretending that she is perfect or that she needs to be perfect (or that anything else in your lives needs to be perfect). You should be able to tell her when she has made a mistake, as long as you do so respectfully.

I agree with this as well.
She does recognize that there is a problem. In fact she is tormented by the undue pressure she puts upon herself. She is not content inside and the thing that kills me is that she has no real reason to feel that way, no real reason to fear me, She creates the response she expects in her mind based on how she was respoded to by her dad growing up. She just can't shake the shell that she built around herself. During our discussions she sometimes sees the sense in the points I present, but she struggles with trying to change the way she perceives things. She leaves our talks thinking she has been presented her marching orders and now she must perform (perfectly), or else face the wrath. I tell her and sometimes practically beg her to confide in me daily and talk to me daily about her (and our) struggles. That's the only way she is going to gain trust in me and see that I'm not going to belittle her and think badly of her. She can't bring herself to do that because she doesn't want to admit to me that she isn't perfect. Everyday things build up, she isn't perfect (as you pointed out no one is), she projects onto me that I am disappointed that she isn't perfect, tension mounts, then the cycle repeats itself..........



Again Javert, thanks much for your input... It is appreciated.

I'll check out the suggested website

Take care,

tonyo

Hi again Javert,

I breezed thru the OCPD forum and I think it will help. I believe I have some OCPD traits (I'm all about efficiency, have said many times and also believe "there's always room for improvement", when I get a 99 on a test, I'm a little pissed about that extra point ).

I also believe that my father-in-law is OCPD but in a much louder, much less compassionate manner. He is very much "if you don't do it my way, then you are wrong and I will let you know without a doubt how stupid I think you are"

I'm more of a "Hmm, are you aware that if you do that in a different way, it should be more (pick one:)efficient/cost-effective/correct/productive. ? " Then, if you still don't do it my way, I'll likely ask questions of you till I'm sure you understand what I am saying, then if you still resist change, I'll shrug my shoulders and be perplexed, sometimes approaching frustrated, depending on the level of importance I place on the topic.

It now makes sense to me that since I likely share some OCPD tendencies with my father-in-law, that makes it much easier for my wife to project his typical reaction onto what she expects from me.

Kind of like this: I was bit by a dog once as a child, also terrorized by the neighborhood doberman everytime I rode my bike past. To this day I'm very cautious around all dogs.


tonyo