Huge problem with a friend

Well, she said she can't consider us friends at the moment.

I'm nervous about posting this, because she said I shouldn't be covered in cotton and rely on my own judgement, but obviously at the moment that isn't working. Admittedly I'd like a quick solution, but I accept that just isn't possible.

I used to be best friends with this person. I spoke to her all the time--literally, every day--for 4 whole years. We had problems, but she always gave me second chances. I didn't feel like we accomplished much with them, but we were still friends. Recently though, I betrayed her. Its hard for me to say the exact reasons, but we were working on a book together, and out of the blue she changed her mind on something (or I thought she did, though she didn't), and because of a whole host of problems we had before I got angry and childishly decided to call off the project and wanted to hurt her. Childishly, as I've said, like how a little boy says he "hates" his mother--if I had known I would have hurt her so deeply then I would not have done what I did. She decided she couldn't trust me from then on.

Its been downhill all the way. I sent a card, which she liked because I included a poem in it too reminding her of good times, but she said she didn't necessarily want the good times back. Though, recently I've found out that she has, and wants that. I sent her red roses (a pun, that's her name!), which as we were NOT IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP caused her confusion, and embarassment from others who kept teasing her and caused her to think I was trying to buy her forgiveness. A part of me was trying to, but that's not the whole me.

After that she gave me a month to show that I had changed myself. That's hard. I don't know how to change. I came to the idea that it was better to walk than run and not say anything if I didn't know how to feel. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of being too nice, I think. She got furious with me because I tried to talk to her about something she kept as "friends-only" and not for me, though she hadn't made this clear to me (or was I not taking it in?!!??) before. She also felt lonely, but didn't want to speak to me about problems. I still care, you see. I can't stop myself caring. If she's upset, I want to help her, even if she wants to smash my head in. I could have asked how she was feeling. Probably I should have, to work out what the boundaries were. I didn't talk to her about this to weasel my way back into the friendship though, I was just trying to be civil and didn't know what she felt comfortable doing.

Not she says she refuses to talk to me about anything other than "The Problem" (which I'm still unsure what it is--being too friendly? Betrayal of trust? All of it?). She won't speak to me unless I do first, will immediately say when she's furious with me (Yes--a clear boundary!) and will refuse to speak to me if she doesn't want to. She's made it clear we haven't been friends for a while (even though I STILL care for her, that wasn't right of me to say). Admittedly I wasn't ready to accept that, but I am now, whilst still wanting to work for the future. She's also made it clear to me that I need to do the work here.

Its hard describing this all in a way that gives me a good share (if not all) of the blame and allows me to face what I have done, because at the same time I think she was to blame too. I could not tell her this before, because she was so angry I felt that she would not have listened to anything I said--even if that I was the first black chinese female pope on Jupiter. Or maybe she would have, and that's the awful thing. I ruined this friendship, and I need to show that I am sorry, or I will never forgive myself for the rest of my life. If she doesn't want to forgive me then well, I won't ever move on.

I'm furious that she seems so right, but has got so much wrong, and makes me doubt that I care for her for her own sake, rather than because of me somehow? I can't say this to her when she's angry though.

Nor can I bend myself into knots to please someone else. It won't work. I WANT to change, but it won't be immediate, and I wish I could show her that there will be mishaps and mistakes, but I am on the path to a better self.

I try to talk to this with a counsellor, but they only repeat what I have said back to them. I talk to my parents and they immediately place some blame this other person--maybe true, but as they are my parents I cannot say I trust them to be impartial. My other friends don't really understand my problems, though they offer what they can.

I have no idea if what I'm saying is right, if she can read this (help), or if I'm asking someone to mollycoddle me.

I am confused. And don't know if I can say anything sensible but will try.

In summary: You and and a friend have both had problems with each other over some years. Your experience of those problems led you to call off a project you both cared about. Her experience of those problems led her to call off your friendship at that point. You're now trying to rebuild that friendship. She is willing to consider being friends but will not do any work herself, nor be clear about where she sees problems still.

"Trying to buy forgiveness" is not IMO a problem.
"Talking about something she kept as friends only" is not IMO a problem.
"Calling yourselves friends when you are not" is not IMO a problem.
"Betrayal of trust" could be a problem, but it's one she has to be willing to solve, by trusting you again a little bit, and then you earn more and more trust by not breaking it again. You can't solve this by yourself.

Nor can I bend myself into knots to please someone else. It won't work. I WANT to change, but it won't be immediate, and I wish I could show her that there will be mishaps and mistakes, but I am on the path to a better self.

You are absolutely right here. You can't change what you don't yourself feel needs changing. What do you think concretely needs to be changed, whether or not you are friends with her? I can't see anything mentioned in your post.

I ruined this friendship, and I need to show that I am sorry, or I will never forgive myself for the rest of my life. If she doesn't want to forgive me then well, I won't ever move on.

No, you've both ruined this friendship. This wasn't one-sided. The solution can't be one-sided either. If she isn't willing to forgive at the moment, then you will need to find a way to move on. Forgiveness needs to come without mind-reading. From what you say, it seems like she's thinking "If you were really sorry, you'd know how to apologise to me properly". I've been guilty of that myself, so I can say that it took me years to figure out that mind-reading is a ridiculous and inappropriate request. If that's what she's doing, you cannot fix it. You can't even tell her she's doing it, because she won't listen or understand. You will need to move on because once some time has passed, this may heal for her and she will forgive without needing anything further from you. You want to be ready for this, and not still hanging on to the current very real pain and hurt from how the situation is now. And if it never happens, you'll benefit from being open to new friendships and not bringing baggage into them.

makes me doubt that I care for her for her own sake, rather than because of me somehow?

Is it possible that you feel so strongly because you feel she is betraying you? Because you feel she needs to show she's sorry to you too? You need to be honest with yourself about that too.


PS: I've been accused of various faults, but mollycoddling has never been one of them.

First of all, thank you so much for replying Ada. I really appreciate your effort. One thing I am learning from this is not to say the first thing that comes into my head, but to take the time to reply sensibly and logically.

From what she's told me, I presume she would be clear in telling me what the problems are if I asked her what the problems are...presume. I did make the mistake of assuming that she felt comfortable talking about certain issues, which was just not so--though she gave absolutely no inclination that that was so at the time. As I said, I perhaps should have asked, but I had no idea that I was proceeding in a dangerous way until she accused me (indirectly, via anonymous messages on her personal blog 2 hours later about "certain people who refuse to think that times are different") of not appreciating the gravity of the situation. I feel as if I am stumbling down a maze whilst drunk (!) and with a broken leg, unsure of where to go, and everything I try makes me fall over again.

Trust...hrm. Trust as you said is earned, and she trusted me to try and change myself, I think. She gave me a month to do so in, as I talked about before, but everything I am saying right now seems to be "the wrong thing", and because I made mistakes she doesn't feel like she can trust me at all. That might be a hangover from the last time though. She believes that nothing is working recently and was VERY close to just ending it completely because she believes I cannot change. She finds talking to me at the moment hugely infuriating regardless of what I say.

What I DO want to change is to be emotionally independent. She was my first real friend after a VERY long period of sheer loneliness, so even when the times were good I felt the need to latch onto her, for fear of her leaving me. This limited me in finding other friends when they were readily available at University. I also want to give things the time they need before running back into solutions.

"If you were really sorry, you'd know how to apologise to me properly".

You hit the nail on the head. She wants me to figure out how, but I cannot read minds!

"Is it possible that you feel so strongly because you feel she is betraying you? Because you feel she needs to show she's sorry to you too?"

Yes. I'm thankful you asked me that question, because I admit now that there is a seed of bitterness in me which I can't allow to germinate ("What a bitch! I hate her ass!" etc). I might have been childish, but I want her to see that I HAVE BEEN TRYING (admittedly without success) to help us both move on, not because I don't appreciate that what I did to her was awful, but because I think that dwelling in anger and bitterness only breeds more of the same. I want her to admit to being spiteful to me.

The most frustrating thing right now is that she seems right. I do need to change. I'm emotionally dependent on others. But going then and telling me right after that I'm a "spineless asshole" and that "life is rough like that" feels...I can't even explain it. I want to scream at her that that isn't right and fair, but I don't think I have the opportunity to. Its what makes me want to hate her, but I have to forgive her. It is hard to forgive someone else though when you ultimately blame yourself for what has happened.

As you seemed to suggest though Ada, I am giving us a break. She says I need to figure out what to do and won't talk to me unless I do first. Okay, but I won't talk for a week or so anyway, unless there are major frustrations she has with me that explode over the period. She needs time to cool off, and so do I.

A further thought: this situation might also be nothing to do with you at all. It might be pushing her buttons from something that's happened in her past. In which case again all you can do is give her time and friendly space.

Emotional independence does sound like a great thing to aim for. Though I'm enormously biased, having schizoid traits myself. Other friends would be helpful in giving you a wider perspective and making this an optional friendship, something that you "want" to work out rather than you "need" to work. Which will, I think, be more reassuring for her too. The break sounds good, and if you can hang out with some other people in that time, so much the better.

One more point I would like to add.

The person I know has a TONNE of other problems right now, ranging from small to large. She suffers from depersonalisation, lives in a crap environment and feels isolated and alone a lot. Obviously I want to help her, but right now I think this is preventing her from seeing the bigger picture and coming to forgive me. Does that sound too self serving?

This is DEFINITELY something I could do with advice on--it goes beyond pure relationships with my friends who don't have emotional/mental issues (I mean this in the nicest possible way to her).

Wow, so this is very infuriating.

She has forgiven me for what happened between us. Unfortunately, there are more problems. She told me that she didn't want things to go back to how they were, and I feel terrible because I...don't know if I accepted that. I mean that I DID but I went about it in the wrong way. I've tried having a generally friendly conversation (hard to feel like you'll be friends again if you just say "hi" and "bye" isn't it?), which seems to have worked until recently. Unfortunately I did "something wrong" (more on that later), and now she's back to giving me one-word answers. I feel uncomfortable speaking to her, though she thinks I assume everything is the same, but I sure as hell don't, because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells, and want to talk about things but don't know how. Doesn't help that anyone can have a bad day and she feels sick and angry about other things, and before I say anything to her I have a stream of thoughts running around about why she's being distant. I told her that I was sorry for "being too friendly", but she says that's not the problem (?) and I should learn for myself how to talk to someone "I'm not close to".

That's the problem. I still care about her, and she obviously cares about me. Its infuriating to think that its ALWAYS MY FAULT though. Everything that goes wrong is my fault somehow, its not a bit of hers at all. I admit that I must do work, but so must she. To hell with her other problems, if she cared she'd do it. I'm not bending myself to fit around the planet Saturn. Still, I am doing things . I feel like a child desperately trying to "prove" this, but I have sought professional help and advice from many people close to me.

I realise that I need to regain her trust, and these incidents are not helping, but I don't know what to do!

For example, she jumped down my throat over a misunderstanding last night. She assumed that I had told another friend about her sister's love problems, and went on a rant about how I should "keep my fat mouth shut"...forgetting that she had told this other guy HERSELF that information weeks ago, and all I told the same guy was that "She's staying at her sister's house now". How she misinterpreted that as me telling the guy about her sister's lovelife is beyond me--especially because I have proof this is not the case, and the guy HIMSELF told her that it was a misunderstanding. Perhaps I've become a scapegoat for all her other problems (depression, depersonisation, nausea, etc). Its infuriating in the EXTREME when she doesn't want to apologise though and clams up, and still holds me accountable for what happened. She just told me to "drop the conversation", and I did.

Even more infuriating because I actually apologised for it! I assumed that (from my track record, which hasn't exactly been great about keeping secrets) that I had told the guy something months ago about her sister in a vague way, which turned out to be impossible, so I apologised for causing offence when I had /done nothing at all/.

There was another problem recently which she had with me which infuriated her, but I don't know what it is. I can guess, but I don't know, and constantly asking her if "x is the right thing to do" is annoying. She "can't be arsed" to tell me what the problem was, and feels frustrated that she has to give me advice constantly--and says she told me she wouldn't before. I flat out told her that I'm not a psychic mind-reader, and I don't know the answers. Its frustrating as HELL to feel like you're making all the effort when someone refuses to/can't see you're doing it, and won't tell you what to do. I feel like a struggling student whose teacher won't tell them how to solve a problem, refuses to see their working, still expects them to get the right answer and shouts at them when they get it wrong.

She also felt infuriated that I use the same speech as her--!! I flat out said that I'd be BOUND to if I've known someone for four years, but then she said that her other friends don't speak like her. I had no answer to that. I believe she thinks I only speak like her because I worship her and mustbelikeheromg, not because I just...do. I have no explanation for it.

I also feel like I can't talk to my other friends who understand her about this, because she expects me to "find the damn answer myself". I'm not asking for someone to hold my hand here though, and she can't see that...

I can be angry at her, but I can't hate her. We were friends (even the "were" is hard to say, though I've admitted to myself we are no longer friends...) for so long.

If she's furious at me for something I don't know that I'm doing, won't tell me what I'm doing wrong because its too hard, insults me over misunderstandings and won't say she's sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick (and thinks I'm cowardly for asking for time out), then what the hell do I do?

WindGuru wrote:If she's furious at me for something I don't know that I'm doing, won't tell me what I'm doing wrong because its too hard, insults me over misunderstandings and won't say she's sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick (and thinks I'm cowardly for asking for time out), then what the hell do I do?

Not what you want to read, but what I think anyway. Walk away. It seems like you both need some time apart to "recalibrate" your friendship. Some distance, a chance to get a better perspective, and for both of you to make some changes, independently. This doesn't read like a healthy relationship for either of you right now, and I can't see any simple way to patch it up. I don't think she knows what she needs, and so there's no way for you to "get it right". And I'm not sure you know what you need either. You're trying all sorts of different approaches to fixing this, but without understanding what's wrong, it can't work.

It seems to me like you have become over-sensitive to each other. Everything one of you says is over-analysed for negative intent by the other one. Step back, keep in touch online if you already are, be friendly if you bump into each other in public. But take some time to sort out where you stand, and to allow her to do the same. You can't do that if you're both irritating the crap each other every time you meet up.

You can't modify what you don't yourself experience needs modifying. What do you think concretely needs to be modified, whether or not you are buddies with her? I can't see anything described in your publish.

Oh well, you're just lucky you're in a situation where 2 people have destroyed a friendship or relationship together and are stroppy about not getting adequate apologies or something instead of one where one person likes to gaslight the ###$ out of people who are by nature just ######6 daft to try to gaslight, expects them to continue to put up with their behaviour pissing them off over and over, and when they exhibit enough patience and self-control under the understanding they already know people are ###$ up, to put the icing on the cake, betrays them, then wonders why they're not so friendly... So there you go, you can consider yourself lucky. I seriously doubt the person in the example I gave is waiting for an apology, so when you get your apology, take these lovely people's advice and feel happy...

When you two became friends - she was probably in a similar position (didn't have any one - she could call a "real friend") and probably had a lot of things in common or she completed you in some way and you completed her... but "with time moving forward" things have changed - things evolved, but you were probably very fond of those "good times" - which have been a very positive experience for someone who's been in a lonely position till that point... and you were hopping to repeat those experiences or expecting better ones... but all that under the "flag of friendship".

- she also enjoyed them "but" - with time passing by, she end-up wanting more - and was probably hopping for you to feel the same - which didn't happen apparently - and now she gets easily pissed "thinking that things can never change in that direction"" and "you just wanna be her friend (but nothing more)" - so, she's pissed with the problems in her life and you seem to be adding up to that list as "another thing that went wrong in her life"...

- again - the loneliness from before and she being a true friend after a long time of loneliness - placed you in a desperate position with "a real need" for this friendship... not just something you wanted but also something "you needed" ... on top of that - "you've became aware of her situation" and maybe you were hoping that "you could save her from that position" - and she was probably hopping the same... 4 years have passed... both of you are 4 years older... and not much has changed... she hates it - she hates "that something made her feel that things could be different" but she can't see much improvement - and that's something "she really needs"...

...what you tried to make clear: NOT IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP - is that truth, you have no feelings for her? - not attracted by her physical appearance - i presume?

"this" could be one of those changes she had in mind (probably still does), or at least something that "can make her aware of an improvement"... and i wonder if that "book project" wasn't - something that shed some light in that direction - and you canceling the project in a childish way - made her see only darkness - and she's tired of it...

- yes, you've been desperate for this to work "like it did" and took the blame on yourself so many times that you're sick of it... probably one of the things that kept the friendship alive for so long - but beyond that... not much changed, did it?