Triggers

Hello, everyone! This thread is about what you find triggering on this forum. I know there are a lot of people who are struggling not to think about watching illegal pornography or even about abusing someone. So, if you feel there's anything that's being said on this forum that is triggering these thoughts in you, the very thoughts you're trying to escape, please talk about it here.
We've already had complaints from people who are very triggered by talk about how sexual thoughts regarding children might be natural or normal and being encouraged to accept them.

Is there something that triggers the thoughts and feelings that might make you do something illegal? What do you think would be a good solution to the problem? We all have to find a way to get along and make this place work for everyone.

While I don't believe I've ever encouraged anyone to accept their paraphilia that is against accepting that paraphilia, I have been "for" accepting my own and have openly discussed this on the forums. If this has triggered anyone or bothered anyone, I'm apologize. However, I believe we're all still entitled to our own beliefs here.

Perhaps having "TRIGGER" in the title of any thread that may contain triggering discussions could help those that wish to avoid triggers prevent being triggered? I can se how this would be a problem, as many discussions on this board could be considered a trigger on some level...

Hi Jasmin and everyone,

I have posted here only a few times, but I do read a lot of the threads. I wanted to give my opinion (for what it's worth). I don't think you can talk about 'triggers' without also considering things that stop triggers, or at least help to keep things at bay.

I have found it very helpful to read arguments that my thoughts, feelings and urges might be in some way normal or natural. I would even venture to say that reading such things has reassured me and I feel less of a monster, less of a threat. It has been incredibly helpful to my sanity, and I think it would be a shame if a few people complaining mean we have to revert to stereotype and silence anyone saying these feelings might be natural or normal.

Maybe some people like to think of themselves as monsters so they can justify to themselves not acting out or justify to themselves excluding themselves from society in some way, therefore not putting themselves at risk of abusing. Personally, though, I'm damned if I'm going to portray myself that way: I am the way I am, but I'm a good man, and I want to think of myself as normal and how dare anyone take that away from me by complaining just because I don't fit their convenient monster stereotype?! (OK, so they're not complaining about me or my posts, but they're still complaining - in effect - about the reasonability of posting pro-normal, pro-natural statements on here, right? But these are messages of healing for some of us!)

I'm sorry, I'm not as eloquent as some on here, and I have sympathy for both 'sides' of the argument, so I'm hardly the most persuasive voice on this forum (also taking into account I don't post much), but I hope my opinion counts. I really feel like complaining the opposite of what the other complainers have submitted because I've been helped so much by the natural/normal thing.

Anyway, for what it's worth. Thanks for listening.

Length of time on the internet without any way to monitor is a deffinate trigger.

TRIGGERING POST

When I first joined up here, I was very excited to find so many other people like myself -- some of whom were my own age. And yes, it made me feel much better to see people talking about pedophiles not being inherently evil. Seeing that boosted my self-esteem.

However, among my issues is a cognitive distortion that as long as a child molester is gentle with a child, there's no reason for the child to be hurt. I know that this isn't true, but my mind doesn't want to admit it. Over the last few months, several people at MHN have been helping me reshape this distortion so that it's no longer distorted. Unfortunately, when I first found this site, I found myself reading post after post arguing that sex with children is not necessarily harmful. Naturally, this was conflicting with what was being ingrained in my head at MHN, and what I find is that it's easy to believe what you want to believe.

Putting a simple "Trigger" tag isn't always enough. Sometimes, what's being said just really shouldn't be said. Not because it's necessarily wrong, but because it's very likely to trigger most people. I know that at MHN, serious talk about children enjoying sex would never be allowed. Once again, that's to protect people there, mostly abuse survivors and people like myself. Another issue with putting a "Trigger" tag in the title of the thread is that (yes, I'm guilty of this) people oftentimes hijack other's threads to the point that what's being discussed has nothing to do with what the OP is interested in. I think we should probably have stricter rules about starting new threads to discuss these topics when we notice that they're going off topic.

Lastly, when I joined these forums, I found a link to a "Child Love" site that someone had posted. I clicked it, thinking that it was a link to a support group for people like me who are trying to distance themselves from pedophilia. I was really shocked to see that it was a community of people who embrace it (not saying that it's wrong to embrace it.) This was extremely triggering to me (probably the worst trigger I've ever suffered,) and I was a nervous wreck for two days (the second day being what I consider the worst day of my life.) Anyway, I think it would be best if these types of links either weren't posted or if a BIG trigger warning was required.

I don't want to be one to eliminate free speech, but when it comes to keeping everyone here safe, I think it's best that we toughen the regulations.

Partridge wrote:I have found it very helpful to read arguments that my thoughts, feelings and urges might be in some way normal or natural. I would even venture to say that reading such things has reassured me and I feel less of a monster, less of a threat. It has been incredibly helpful to my sanity, and I think it would be a shame if a few people complaining mean we have to revert to stereotype and silence anyone saying these feelings might be natural or normal.

I'm glad to hear that you've experienced this. There have been times when I too have been encouraged by reading arguments and views that approach MAPs (minor attracted persons) as being people with normal and natural sexualities that are not generally accepted in today's day and age.

However, not everyone sees it this way, and that's just fine - except that the difference between these two views has often made too much room for debates, flaming and the hijacking of otherwise normally functioning threads of discussion. Focus on the topic at hand in a specific thread being replied to on the poster's part may help eliminate some of the out of place debates and arguments. Even if the debate at hand cannot be discussed appropriately in a new thread, I believe we should all be able to agree to disagree and not blow it out of the water.

Really, I think keeping threads focused would help in more ways than one. This could even eliminate triggers where there otherwise might not be any.

Partridge wrote:I'm sorry, I'm not as eloquent as some on here, and I have sympathy for both 'sides' of the argument, so I'm hardly the most persuasive voice on this forum (also taking into account I don't post much), but I hope my opinion counts. I really feel like complaining the opposite of what the other complainers have submitted because I've been helped so much by the natural/normal thing.

Again, I too have been helped by the natural/normal argument, yet others have apparently been harmed by it. Finding a way that people may have the choice to avoid being even potentially harmed or triggered is obviously tricky, but I believe it's possible. Not only do I believe it's possible - I believe it's kind of vital to this site if it wishes to maintain an open and supportive atmosphere to everyone and not just those latched to a specific facet of an issue. So far, I have gotten the vibe from several moderators that keeping the peace is very important around here, so I doubt they wish to cater to a specific group while neglecting others.

Musicman wrote:Putting a simple "Trigger" tag isn't always enough. Sometimes, what's being said just really shouldn't be said. Not because it's necessarily wrong, but because it's very likely to trigger most people.

Yes, the trigger tag thing is superficial, I think. When it comes to responding and avoiding triggers, it may be obvious what could trigger another. Those responses may be best left for other threads, but then comes the issue of posters feeling like they have to censor themselves. This isn't a good feeling, for one. For another, not everyone here has the same sense of judgement or opinion, belief, etc. when it comes to what may be appropriate and what may not be appropriate.

I've thought of how useful an obscuring/revealing option would be for the post editing toolbar - you know, something like what many gaming forums use, a "SPOILER" tag, which blackens an entire section of a post desired, which can be revealed and obscured again by the click of a button while reading the post. Except in our case it would be a "TRIGGER" tag. Anyone revealing it would know the risk involved in doing so - they may be triggered, or may not be. The original poster of the trigger may even decide to provide what kind of trigger it is beforehand, or something like this - "Pro-pedosexuality trigger ahead" - following this with the obscured trigger, which readers may reveal or keep obscured.

Just a thought.

Musicman wrote:Another issue with putting a "Trigger" tag in the title of the thread is that (yes, I'm guilty of this) people oftentimes hijack other's threads to the point that what's being discussed has nothing to do with what the OP is interested in.

I kinda touched on this earlier. This is a pet peeve of mine. People obviously know when things are getting too far off the rails...leading the thread to open up into forests of triggers, all rooted from debates and arguments. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for debates and arguments, but if they're going to seize a thread, they should be taken to a more appropriate thread. Sometimes new threads must be started for this, and that's fine.

Perhaps the moderators cracking down the hammer on certain derailing threads may be necessary - and this is fine. Posters must realize the importance of keeping focus on threads as a means of avoiding triggers, and more, such as, well, keeping the discussion about what the OP meant it to be.

Musicman wrote:I don't want to be one to eliminate free speech, but when it comes to keeping everyone here safe, I think it's best that we toughen the regulations.

Toughening the regulations while promoting an open-minded and supporting environment comes off as a kind of magic trick to me. However, I still believe it's possible. We the users of this board and the moderators all hold the responsibility of maintaining the peace and keeping everyone free of harmful triggers. So, making everyone aware of this responsibility and aware of what just what might trigger others could help a good deal. Awareness.

Finding a way for everyone to express themselves freely while giving those prone to the various existing triggers a choice to avoid them seems to be the toughie right now, at least to me.

As far as just what a trigger is...well, anything could a trigger, if looked at from the right eyes. Someone could find cute kittens in knit sweaters triggering, or dog heads triggering (no offense guys! ), or tree bark (what's in my avatar) triggering. This is part of what makes it tough. Even if a "SPOILER/TRIGGER" tag were utilized in the post formatting toolbar, I'd imagine a lot of obscured black blocks might be gracing the pages of the board, making those prone to certain triggers afraid to read or reveal much around the forums.

Sigh...there's gotta be a way.

I'd like to have worded this better, but I'll be brief.

I think the best one can do is to help people acknowledge that they are capable of taking control of their own lives and shape their own future.

To that end, I believe own must start with an appreciation of one self, an acceptance of reality, and a recognition of one's own strong points.

I believe a balanced view will bring happiness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImotZtVkQRE).
I believe happiness and inner peace will help alleviate dissatisfaction, turmoil, and confusion (http://lesswrong.com/lw/4su/how_to_be_happy/).
I believe switching from a passive mindset to an active one, helps make "Can Do"-thinking become a habit (http://lesswrong.com/lw/3w3/how_to_beat ... stination/).
I believe self-pity is actively destructive, and saps the strength and energy of one self and others (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRypc92X5Xc).

I believe love to be an active thing, a dynamic thing, an inner well of strength which brings goodness and soothing to all.
And I believe all should strive to love themselves.

I don't believe people should act like petulant, sulking children who blame others for their own emotional responses.
I don't think that is healthy, I don't think it helps, and I think that is something people should be told in no uncertain terms without inventing special words ("trigger") that mystifies and hides the meaning.

Having read through all of the above, I'm glad we're having this discussion. It's clear that if we set up some guidelines and stick to them we can create an environment in which all people coming to the forum can get the help that is best for them. It is clear, however, that some people are helped by what for others would be triggers (and this works both ways).

I would suggest the following (derived from other people's ideas above). Note that when I say 'we' or 'us' I'm referring to everyone.

1) We adopt an open-minded approach to what people need from this forum and accept that the helpful messages they want to hear may vary considerably.
2) We ensure that posts remain on topic. Mods can step in and and ask people to start a new topic (normal users can suggest this too, of course, as mods may be busy elsewhere).
3) We embrace the idea of freedom of speech whilst accepting that our words can cause distress, as well as keeping to rule 2 in this regard.
4) With rule 3 in mind, we accept a responsibility as reader: not to continue reading if we feel something may upset or trigger us. After all, there will always be 'triggers' out there; notwithstanding the responsibilities others have under rule 3, we have to accept responsibility and inure ourselves to potential triggers or else try and avoid them (rule 2 will facilitate this latter endeavour).

An additional consideration: I've noticed that sometimes people are apt to simplify the views of opposing arguments and reduce them all to the same message, creating some kind of reductionist binary opposition. This will work both ways, of course, but to give one example: I am pro-normalisation of paedophilia, but against many forms of adult-child sexual relationships. I'm on the fence when it comes to changing age of consent laws (I can see arguments for raising and lowering them). I do argue for attraction to children to be considered normal and natural, but I wouldn't want people making assumptions about my overall philosophy simply because of this. I try to respect the quiddity of other people's views and I think we should embrace the variety of opinions here without lumping them all together in two opposing camps. I haven't formulated this as a rule 5, because it's really an extension to rule 4 (remain a responsible reader).

Maybe these can be revised, expanded or distilled accordingly?

I have read your replies and understand what you guys are saying (I hope). The thing is that this forum has a purpose, which is giving support or a place to talk to people who are feeling vulnerable and who might even be in danger of doing something illegal.
Pretty much all the forums we have are for people who are in a tough place, first of all. So, if a number of people in the abuse forums would say that they find something triggering and it seems reasonable, I would do something about it.

So, here's what I'm thinking: we should limit talk of how certain thoughts are natural (I'm talking about stuff like sexual attraction to kids or animals or rape/violent fetishes where the person is struggling with their urges) to certain threads only. I would like people to stop telling newcomers or even older posters that their thoughts are normal (thoughts that could make them do something harmful/illegal). If anyone has a discussion like that in mind, they can start a thread about it and express their feelings and thoughts on the matter.
What do you think? And yah we could explain what the thread is about in the title, so that people who think they might get triggered won't have to read it.

I agree with that in principle, Jasmin, or at least I respect the intention. There are a few things that spring to mind and I wonder if I may contribute them:

I recommend a sticky thread explaining that there are views from all camps on the paraphilias part of the forum and that some of these may trigger (also explain what 'triggering' is for newcomers - I had no idea), ground rules, etc.

The present issue is one in which some people are uncomfortable with the normal/natural argument and feel that it is distressing and triggers them. But when devising a system we have to cater for potential future issues. I can imagine that the opposite issue might occur at some point: some people with paraphilias may come here feeling distressed, excluded, desperate, only to find that the message on here is univocal - you 'are' a monster. Given that we don't know what will trigger whom, and that a newcomer might not know either, it seems inappropriate to (for example) create separate boards or forums, so I agree to divide by thread. In this regard, we might come up with a more detailed version of my rule two above. As you and others say, perhaps mods can label threads somehow, or posters can be encouraged to do so as well.

I'm tired today, so my creative capacity is not at its best. Besides, I don't ever feel like I'm distressed about my sexuality or at risk of being 'triggered' or 'acting out' (possibly I shouldn't even be here!), so I'd rather only contribute a few ideas here and there and let the main input come from those who do experience distress and triggering.