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Pedophillia vs Homosexuality

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Re: Pedophillia vs Homosexuality

Postby ncsoftlover » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:10 pm

Now,about homosexuality as a sexual deviancy.
First of all, deviancy is not nessesarily a bad things,and second, you don't hear people say that vegetarians/left handed people as social deviancy, they also derived from social normal since their proportion compared to the total population is small. Homosexuals consists about 3-5% of world population according to some studies, to other studies, they consist up to 10% of world's population, either way, that's a significant proportion of people, in nature, you would call that a variation of a genetic phenotype, kind of like a purple flower/yellow flower sort of situation, such rare phenotypes like purple flowers of a certain plant may exist as a variation trait, and because variations need to be maintained, such rare phenotypes may actually have evolutionary advantages. Homosexuals acts somewhat like a rare phenotype that actually plays an important role in maintaining population stability and variation, but in real life, we can't openly embrace such variations can we? (I'm not talking about my country Canada of course, I'm talking about certain parts of the world)

But of course we can never be sure that homosexuality exists entirely as genetic variation, some people argue it's influeced by envinronment, I see their points. ( if that's the case, it would be a subconscious influence, still not a choice by the way) How is this subconscious influence any different than say, I'm influenced by my dad to like Chinese culture, or Michael grow up in Manhattan and influenced to like modern architecture? etc. etc. Afterall, it's not harming the society, it's not causing physical pain and people are not dying because they suffer from "homosexuality", so my question is, why would anyone ever want to treat homosexuality as a disorder? Oh, and I actually think homosexuality makes some evolutionary sense(as a genetic variation), contrary to popular beliefs, I'll save that for later.

Now when people say homosexuality gives absolutely no benefit, I'm quoting dan1966, it doesn't make any sense to me. Is our existence based on producing benefits? And more importantly, how are homosexuals producing any less benefits than heterosexuals? Aids, child molesters, drug abuse and having hundreds of partners? That can't possibly be it can it? Because first of all, non of those are exclusive to homosexuals, all people can be subjected to these problems (surprise!). And second, it may be true that homosexuals maybe slightly more exposed to these problems, but association doesn't mean direct causation, it's not so much homosexuality that causes these peoblems, have you thought about the social intolerance, ,the pressures the society put on these people, which may prevent them from building stable relationships, and some are mentally broken who actually have to turn of a whole list of negative coping mechanisms? If we could only be more tolerant, more acceptive, maybe it can be different? Please make sure you're not blaming the victim.
And straight people are just so amazingly beneficial, say hello to 50% divorce rate and foster kids! :? Not to mention there are actually many gay partners who went through life long commitments and had happy lives together. When you say gay/lesbians produce no benefit, are you sure the statement is not a generalized one based on typical stereotypes. If you cannot judge people and evaluate them as uniques individuals, and start to lump groups together, then you're stereotyping, it's just that simple!

And finally, about the "god plan" thing.
To religious people, I want to ask that do you really know every detail about God's plan?
To atheists, do you know every detail about nature's plan? Because clearly, people are quick to judge that gay people should not exist because it doesn't follow "god's plan", or it doesn't make evolutionary sense, I mean afterall, reproduction is our only purpose in life right ? :shock: We certainly love to act as nature's speakperson. :mrgreen:
I'm not religious, I'll go the nature way, natural selection is incredibly complicated, the most respected biologists can't say they understand everything about it. Reproductive success is an advantage, but it is not nesessarity the only fitness measure. This is a gene (homosexuality) persisted over thousands years of human civilization that we're talking about, and still going strong today, and actually existed far longer than that, because we observed it in various animal species.So, if this gene (or combination of genes) refused to go away despite the fact these people have little reproductive success, then it must have some evolutionary advantage, doesn't it?
Think of it this way, I know it's a stereotype, but this has some truth in it, gay males are very often emotionaly sensitive, they had significant contributions to the world, in term of art, music, fashion, architecture design and philosophical ideas. And we know variations are important for the survival of a specie, if we think about it, why can't the homosexuality trait be a trait that add more flavors to humanity, and actually help to create a more ideal Science/Art balance, and could be helpful to prolong the harmony of our society, and therefore helpful to our survival? Doesn't it not make sense, that the traits could simply be a rare phenotype and provides variation to the gene pool? and that it's perfectly natural, just not necessarily meant to exist for reproduction success? I've already mentioned this purple/yellow flower thing at the beginning of this post.
We don't understand everything about nature, not about natural selection either, and please don't pretend that we know it all. And as long as we don't understand nature's true intentions and plans, it's better to just respect it. And love our own people, Provided that their "uniqueness" does not directly harm anyone!
variations is just variations, please don't fear it.
yeah, I think I just summed up everything I wanted to say in the last few posts, it's all just my opinions of course. :D
I apologize for the wall of text, I apologize for my English.
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Re: Pedophillia vs Homosexuality

Postby GinaSmith » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:26 pm

One refers to predominant sexual and romantic attraction to members of one’s own sex, the other refers to predominant sexual and romantic attraction to prepubescent children of the sex or sexes to which one is attracted.

I’d like to skim through a few points from various posters if I may. If my responses sound terse it is because I’m in a hurry (which also means I've left out some of the other stuff I agreed with).

cessna2332 wrote:This doesn't apply to pedophilia though. It's harmful to kids and they cant consent like adults so thats my opinion on the difference. Seems pretty obvious don't you think?


This conflates paedophilia with child molestation. Paedophilia is not an action, and neither is homosexuality.

Leviathan wrote:Pedophilia isn't a mental illness, you can treat a mental illness you cannot change someone's sexuality.


If we define mental illness based on treatability, then mental illness is largely an invention of the last century, as effective treatments for a variety of mental disorders were not available until relatively recently. The DSM currently says that paedophilia is not to be considered a mental illness unless the paedophile has acted on his/her desires or is suffering significant distress as a result of his/her desires.

Leviathan wrote:Now the difference is, gay sex is between two consenting adults, so it's not a crime


This also conflates attraction with action. Gay sex isn’t synonymous with homosexuality; child molestation is not synonymous with paedophilia.

Mount Vernon wrote:I don't know for sure, but in my case, either an array of mental illnesses and bouts of insanity have spurred from my pedophilia, or they're a part of it.


Causative or symptomatic is always a moot point. Tricky! :)

S3 wrote:Similarities:
taboo/non-traditional


This refers to society’s attitude toward paedophilia/homosexuality and is not a ‘property’ of thereof.

S3 wrote:usually stems from the lack of a healthy father-child relationship
often accompanied by discomfort with candidates who would be socially acceptable partners
usually accompanied by the pursuit of other deviant sexual stimulation


These are totally unfounded scientifically.

S3 wrote:a wide range of variance in social skills, profession, and personality


This is a vapid statement, as it could apply to any group or subset of the population.

S3 wrote:often stereotyped to extremes but the extreme is sometimes true


Ditto.

S3 wrote:a wide range of self acceptance and self-justification from self-haters to activists and everything in-between


Ditto.

S3 wrote: Unique to homosexuality:
stereotyped fashion-conscious and/or effeminate for men
stereotyped butch or feminine-but-aggressive for women
often more conscientious of how others see them
feel secure or powerful when alone with the same gender


Empty nonsense.

S3 wrote: Unique to pedophilia:
typically more reclusive or may like solitude
stereotypically over-obsessed with sex
feel secure or powerful when alone with a child
more likely to enjoy an unbalanced power dynamic in a relationship (i.e. dom/sub)


Ditto.

1Ste wrote:People that may describe themselves as liking the same sex normally find others of similar age attractive.


If this were true, we would expect to see far more porn featuring men/women in their fifties and sixties, to cater for men/women of that age. The porn industry generally features young people (18-30). This may reflect producers' perception of the market or it may reflect market taste, but either way I’d imagine the quantity of porn available featuring performers in the older age bracket could be considered disproportionate when compared to the number of older people viewing porn.

dan1966 wrote:The first thing that came to mind is that pedophilia is unacceptable and homosexuality isn't.


This refers to society’s attitude toward paedophilia/homosexuality and is not a ‘property’ thereof.

dan1966 wrote:The first thing to come to mind is that both are sexual deviancy and both give no benefit.


This statement is predicated upon the presupposition that a necessary property of sexual attraction is the provision of 'benefit', but it’s not clear on what such a presupposition rests, nor what 'benefit' should be taken to mean. Deviancy merely invokes some normative framework, but without saying what that is the use of the word is empty.

Kellicious wrote:His belief is that the human body is made up of all the chemicals, synapses and all that and when everything works as it should everybody should be genetically similar in that men are suppose to be attracted me woman and visa versa. He thinks that any deviation from 'God's plan' is a disorder. That when a synapse isn't firing right or if the right combination of chemicals aren't in a persons body then they will have many of the disorders/deviances that are prevalent in society.


But if God made everything then he made homosexuals and paedophiles too (this presumes your friend believes in a god of one of the Theistic – i.e. Abrahamic – religions).

ncsoftlover wrote:While the attraction itself is not so much different from any other sexual orientation, I agree that it's not unreasonable to label it as a mental illness.


As I mention above, it is not at present considered a mental illness in the absence one or both of the qualifying criteria I mentioned.

ncsoftlover wrote:Because clearly this is not a harmless orientation like hetero/homosexuals are, acting out on the desire will harm children in many ways, that's very dangerous.


This makes the same mistake as two people above, conflating attraction with action, so I’m glad you then say:

ncsoftlover wrote:But I always say this, don't associate the stigma with the attraction, associate the stigma with the act, distinguish between child molesters, and people with pedophilia tendencies.


ncsoftlover wrote:One more thing that could distinguish Homosexuals and pedophiles, is that Homosexuality likely has a genetic basis to it.


Possibly, but there’s also a theory about hormonal environment in the womb. Either way, there is no concrete knowledge regarding the genesis of homosexuality or paedophilia, so this has to remain speculative.

ncsoftlover wrote:But is it necessary to label it as mental illness, So that people would seek help to make sure children are protected? Probably yes.


Similar discussions surrounded homosexuality at one point.

ncsoftlover wrote:I see it like this, any condition a person has that derives significantly from social majority, mentally or physically , that may directly cause physical or mental harm to the person, or to the others in the society,can be considered as a disorder.
[/quote]

This isn’t a very satisfying definition from a medical perspective. In medicine, normative frameworks based on assumptions on how a particularly biological system or systems should be functioning give rise to acceptable ranges (e.g. serum urea levels). This is not to say that culturally relativistic ideologies and beliefs will feed said normative frameworks and influence what is considered to be the acceptable range of variation, and in fact they probably do - particularly in the case of paraphilias. Still, your definition could include willingness to be a member of a cult, which is not currently considered a disorder.

OK, I rushed through all those. Not meaning to rile anyone. Just saw a few things I wanted to respond to.
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Re: Pedophillia vs Homosexuality

Postby Kellicious » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:56 pm

I was looking forward to gina's post and wasn't disappointed even if it was hurried. I sure hope you have time to come back and make a post that isn't so hurried. :)

ncsoftlover, I have to say reading your post was a joy!

I have never believed homosexuality was a disfunction/disorder/disease or anything remotely close. I have always believed you can't help who you love. Homosexuality is so much more than just wanting to have sex with man/woman. On the other hand, there are boys/girls that were abused by someone that was of the same sex. I can so understand where someone could have the opinion that it is a sickness. This might have been a boy/girl that would have grown up never experiencing feelings of homosexuality had they never been abused. It is so easy to obscure the line when you add in the life experiences of everyone. Ever since I decided to start posting here I have been trying to be empathetic to all the different views that are out there. I just hate stepping on toes. Especially when you deal with someone's sexuality and/or demons that might haunt them from a past I know nothing about. I have and still have many gay/lesbian friends. I was taught not to judge people based on something like them liking the same sex. I have also known people that have grown up in a gay/lesbian household. They never developed an attraction to the same sex. They grew up happy, confident, successful heterosexual people who had children and led a 'normal' life.

I just can't get on the fence that pedophilia is a lifestyle choice though. Whether someone that is labeled a pedophile has ever touched or done anything with a child. Maybe it is because I haven't lived with this my whole life? Maybe because I grew up thinking and being taught it is a sickness. Here we go again? Maybe confusing the line between the pedophile with the child molester/sex abuser? I have struggled these last few years with my inappropriate thoughts. See this isn't something I struggled with all my life. It is something that has surfaced the last 10 years. I developed the thoughts I have over the years. Friends I have talked to for years bringing it up. Going to places where actual deviants/abusers just might go to share this and being drawn into their fantasies. What separates the 2? They fact you don't offend? Maybe the fact you know in your heart you would never hurt a child? It is such a fine line. Especially if you ad in factors like depression, any other mental disorder/disfunction, stress or anything else that might happen in life.

I am not 100% sure what I was hoping to find when I discovered this place. Maybe I was wanting to be told I was normal for the thoughts that would frequent my mind. Maybe I was wanting more information on what others thought. I have always been confident in my sexuality even the things that I have tried that aren't considered of the 'norm'. I tried to tell myself I didn't struggle with this. That it was only in my head. So I spent every waking moment here reading posts. Going back many pages. While doing that, I found mention of a group of people/lawyers/therapist/physicians that are trying to get help for pedophiles that haven't abused and might be afraid they would. I went to their site just to see what it is about. I think it is great that there are therapists that will help someone that fears they will cross the line. But what made me pause was the testimonials from the 'boys' that experienced what they termed 'boy love'. They were saying how they were a much better man for this. Then I linked to a forum site on boy love and girl love. These men/women were making suggestions on how to befriend and get children to trust them. Sadly, I was almost sucked in. Then I hit the abuse section of this forum. My heart breaks to the stories I have read there. I think when someone choses to glorify/normalize pedophilia they need to head to that section and hear the anguish the people posting there suffer on a daily basis because someone thought it was okay. :( Again I might be blurring the line between pedophile and child sex abuse.

Sorry if I went on a rant. :)
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