One thing I don't understand about nons...

Of all the things out there that my views are skewed on, there's one thing I don't understand the most...

You guys really care about other people.. just for the sake of caring? REALLY? Like, really, really?

I can't wrap my head around that.

What's it like? What kind of thought process goes into that? Why? Don't you find people are inherently selfish?

Altruism fascinates me. Is there true altruism? On some minute level, don't you get satisfaction from making someone else happy- thus making it not true altruism?

Well, I don't think it's ever just for the sake of caring - I mean - like, I'm not going to give up my house and job to save people in impoverished countries or anything. I do tend to just sort of care about people though - their ways (how they act, things they say, mannerisms, etc.) become familiar to me and I guess sort of "cute" like a kitty cat or something, although that's really downplaying it.

People I really get to know, or who seem to have qualities I admire (patience, generosity, sensitivity, kindness, gratitude, a sense of humor, intelligence, self-awareness) and I begin to get to know them, become sort of beautiful to me. I'm sad if I lose them or they leave my life (not, mind you, like the sadness of the loss of a lover).

What do you feel for your family?

SansStars wrote:You guys really care about other people.. just for the sake of caring? REALLY? Like, really, really?

Now you have me doubting my own narcissism. Do narcs really not care about other people just for the sake of caring? Did you watch footage of Hurricane Katrina and not feel bad for those peoples' suffering. Not because you imagined it could you either, but just because you felt bad. Did you watch the uprisings in Egypt and not feel proud and happy that those people might now lead freer lives? And not because you imagined that a dictator may one day enslave you too, but just because you felt happy and proud for them? Am I too much of a softie to be a Narc?

Supposedly there's some sort of difference between empathy and sympathy - sympathy is where you can feel bad for other people, and empathy is where you can imagine what it's actually like to BE the other person and go through what they are going through. Narc's supposedly don't have empathy.

Narcs are often rule breakers, and have a thing about being told what to do. Perhaps it doesn't finish at not wanting to meet the expectations of others, and continues into not wanting to meet the expectations placed on them by society.. from a young age

expressivecreative wrote:Supposedly there's some sort of difference between empathy and sympathy - sympathy is where you can feel bad for other people, and empathy is where you can imagine what it's actually like to BE the other person and go through what they are going through. Narc's supposedly don't have empathy.

Ok got it. Maybe my narcisism is still intact. I take it AsPDs (and malignant narcs?) are supposedly not able to feel sympathy.

With altruism, I suppose often there is an aspect of getting satisfaction from making other people happy, eg. if I give someone a birthday present it makes me happy that I have made the other person happy. But that's not the reason I gave that person a present, I genuinely want to make them happy, and the fact that that makes ME feel good too is just a bonus.

But empathy is different in that we can actually feel the other person's pain, or happiness, whatever emotion it may be. There are "mirror neurons" in the brain that do just that, they can mirror another's emotions and cause you to feel what they are feeling. If I see someone crying, for example, I will feel sad, and sorry for that person, even if I don't know them.

I think having empathy is critical to survival, from an evolutionary point of view. Without it we would not care for those in need, and all of us will be in need at some point of our lives, when we are sick, old etc. I mean if a cave man just stood by not caring whilst a saber tooth tiger mauled his family to death we we wouldn't have got very far, would we?

Yeah, I don't understand the difference between sympathy and empathy. I only know how I feel. I'm not a narc, although I may have narc tendencies, or merely be mirroring my HPD mother or my narc ex - don't know. But I was involved with one, and he is utterly incapable of understanding how I feel, and that is unfathomable to me, as I feel like all I ever did was love him, and still do.

Narcs feel something like love in the idealization period I guess - I think I'm right. And mine was certainly capable of sympathy, although not with me lol - only others. And it may be that he was merely pointing out my inadequacies in that department (projecting) to try and make me feel terrible.

I care about other people in a messed up way - I expect too much from them - so I'm not the person to ask about this. But yes, giving gifts makes me happy, especially on birthdays - as I know what it's like to be depressed on a birthday - to feel like nobody gives a crap (in juxtaposition to the fuss made over me on birthdays as a child), so I want everyone's birthdays to be special. I feel like they should have a cake, presents, etc.

And I've always felt like I'm a better mother because I remember what it was like to be an unloved child - and my children will NEVER experience that as long as I'm there for them.

I've had a couple drinks, so I'm rambling . . . I just can't imagine not caring about others. Although sometimes it doesn't seem worth it because nobody cares about me the way I care about them (except maybe my Dad, who is a saint, and my babies).

SansStars wrote:Of all the things out there that my views are skewed on, there's one thing I don't understand the most...

You guys really care about other people.. just for the sake of caring? REALLY? Like, really, really?

I can't wrap my head around that.

What's it like? What kind of thought process goes into that? Why? Don't you find people are inherently selfish?

Altruism fascinates me. Is there true altruism? On some minute level, don't you get satisfaction from making someone else happy- thus making it not true altruism?

Sans how you been

Actually, it seems to me like you are making it too hard on yourself. Might seem wierd but empathy/sympathy/altruism is...just so...nobody tries to wrap their head around it as they are doing it; would be like trying to grab water with your fingers.

My reflecting educated brain tells me altruism probably exists on an instinctual level (although selfishness/narcissism does too...encoded from the earliest days of life on earth ). If you understand the rules of the evolution model It's not hard to speculate why altruistic genes spread...human beings were once puny creatures with little hope of surviving by themselves against lions or other animals (incl. other humans) who wanted to kill them. The only way to stay alive was to stick together: the other person beside you in your tribe was essential to your chances of survival. So gradually more selfish people got killed and more altruistic ones lived, blah blah blah. But that doesn't explain what empathy/sympathy/altruism feels like when you are doing it, so can it really totally explain it?

Actually you are on to something very big when you mention the satisfaction associated with altruistic acts, but maybe what you assume to be satisfaction isn't really...satisfying. Remember I told you once how my Dad and I saved the guy trapped under the dory on the Oregon Beach? After running so hard and far through the sand to get help I puked, but still got it done? In all honesty I ran out of fear and, ironically, maybe part self interest; maybe because the unfathomable thing that is death was there under that boat with that guy, and maybe on some deep level I saw myself reflected in the guy drowning under there.

But seeing that guy live was satisfying, yet a quiet, humbling, liberating experience. Like I was allowed to be a part of something much bigger for a little while.

Of course, afterwards I got a bigger head and waxed out some narcissism telling my friends about it. That's ok with psychology and the world...according to the general rules and regulations the difference between Nons and NPD's should be Non's understand their own narcissism and so they keep it packaged small. NPD's can't do this as easily because without good therapy their true sense of self is obscure and fleeting, and therefore they don't have the mental tools they need. Non's need to try to understand and assist NPD's when they can because if they don't their own altruism will fade or grow stagnant.

I think it is wonderful that you are fascinated by altruism. If you want to approach it from the intellectual side and have some time why not take a class in Ethics ? Or, bring it up in group therapy. Or just go to some sacred place, like a Church/Synagogue /Mosque, and ask one of the clergy there.

The first step is interest - you are already there. The next step might be emulation. Don't worry if it doesn't feel 100% genuine - I find the essence is in the effort, and most importantly, the act.

I'm not a non........LOL (unless you mean, non-narc.....then non me up baby!)



But yeah........i've thought about this. Maybe more, or as much as anything. Usually from a very narrow totally selfish perspecitve...........i.e. why don't you care about me? (and how can you claim you do!)



And basically it comes down to this:

You guys really care about other people.. just for the sake of caring? REALLY? Like, really, really?

They think they do.

That's how they can care about other people.

They BELIEVEthey do. Case closed, end of story in their minds. That's all there is to it.


People like you and me...........we see all the selfish reasons they do or say anything........and how that "shows" us they don't really......or atleast, what confuses us........


But the fact is....... they just believe they do. They don't question it. They just go with whatever......and that's how they go.

(am i right? wrong nons?)

What's it like? What kind of thought process goes into that? Why? Don't you find people are inherently selfish?

Altruism fascinates me. Is there true altruism? On some minute level, don't you get satisfaction from making someone else happy- thus making it not true altruism?

THat's essentially it.........that doesn't matter to them.

They don't care........they're good and not selfish.

They don't question it.......they feel it. So even if they do question it......it's like, some magical moment where they were "crazy" to doubt how nice and good they are.


I don't know.

I mean.......i'm sure it's that simple.

They just believe they care..........so they do. It's easy for them.

Whereas when we try and believe we care......it's a lot harder to say "yes i care" and feel like it's right.


Because i must care on some level?

I help people. And then on another.......i don't care at all. Like the amount i care, if that was all people cared about me.......it's so low. So frightfully low and scary........it's pretty much lip service.

Whatever.........HA! A BPD can't really answer this.


I agree with everything i say.........especially the parts that contradict the other parts.


But i mean, that's just further "proof".


I care, when i think i care.

I don't........when i think i don't.


I may help you out of the goodness of my heart............or i may help you, just so the world takes notice and doesn't punish me.

You guys really care about other people.. just for the sake of caring?

No..........they care, because it makes them feel good.

That's what caring does for them. That's how and why.


Like the antisocials.........and YOU! You don't care..........because it doesn't make you feel good.

(atleast not as much)


So really.......nobody cares. Or everyone cares.............

We just react differently, to different situations..........and tell ourselves, what those reactions mean.