The "superior Chinese mother"

searchfortruth wrote:I didn't say "they teach discipline". I talked about a disciplinarian parent. A disciplinarian parent need not necessarily "teach" discipline.

At the risk of being picky you said "There is a gradual process in such cultures where the child is taught discipline."

searchfortruth wrote:I disagree with you that what Asiatic cultures teach is obedience. That is too generalized a statement and a misconception stemming from stereotypes, which stem from a superficial understanding of these cultures. Yes, some parents do want their children to obey, but that is true of parents in any other part of the world.

Love the subtle dig.

We'll have to disagree. Obedience, filial piety, whatever you want to call it, is hammered, and I mean hammered, into them from day one. There is a world of difference (sic!) between Western culture and Asian culture in this area.

Now I am generalising. But there are distinct parenting differences that combined with educational experiences produce these outcomes. For example, Western kids are much more used to making their own decisions.

You're missing a couple of things. The value system that Search spoke of doesn't guarantee that a person will do exceedingly well in all situations.

Think of it this way:

The majority of the world has a rather collectivist culture and they raise their children accordingly. If you actually get Southeastern Europeans to speak freely about this they'll tell you that they were raised with notion that they exist to better their people, ethnicity, or tribe. From the few Asians I've known well they've explained their cultural paradigm in a remarkably similar fashion.

In short, such cultures teach their kin to stay within their role(s) within their cultural and family units for the betterment of everybody around them. So, raise the kids for the purpose of surviving whatever role they'll have to adhere too. In this sense it is teaching personal empowerment just from a different paradigm.

Now, with the West and its emphasis on pure individualism you really can't expect people to hit perfect 10's every time. In the same way, most Americans fail utterly under more socialist cultural systems.

You simply can't point to a couple students, negating all the variables, and make a judgment about another culture's values. Although, doing so is incredibly Western.

At the risk of being picky you said "There is a gradual process in such cultures where the child is taught discipline."

Oops, missed that line I wrote. You are right to point that out. I wrote that loosely, and let me correct to say that there is a gradual process in such cultures where the attitude of discipline is intended to develop in a child. There is no 100% guarantee though, but that is the value system, however foreign it might seem to our western perceptions. Asia though, has lost it during the last decade, and higher per capita incomes seem to be spurring more imbalance. There are some sub-cultures though that are seeing a new resurgence back to such attitudes and values amongst its youth.

Love the subtle dig.

We'll have to disagree. Obedience, filial piety, whatever you want to call it, is hammered, and I mean hammered, into them from day one. There is a world of difference (sic!) between Western culture and Asian culture in this area.

It wasn't a subtle dig (that's your narcissistic perception J ). It was a direct disagreement

Your comment shows that you don't understand filial piety and such other concepts very well. It is also an affective outcome, and you really can't hammer it into someone - do you think Asian kids are really that dumb? What might appear to western perceptions as forced and hammered in Asian culture, are actually results of value choices, attitudinal or otherwise, developed based on the various benefits involved, both communal and individual (it took me sometime to understand this too) besides ofcourse, huge ethnic pride. By the way, filial piety is very much prevalent in western cultures as well, for example in many parts of southern and eastern Europe.

Such misconceptions are similar to Asian perceptions and misconceptions that, for example, American parents and children don't care at all about each other, which as we know is not true. Asians often stereotype the American woman as a loud, ambitious or flirtatious, careless mother who over indulges her child, which is often a Hollywood movie based stereotype

So as that great Australian patriot once said "please explain".

I would have had many, perhaps over a hundred, students and work colleagues when I worked in Asia explain to me that their parents would either cut them off or had cut them off if they did not do what their parents directed. so you saying this is a gentle process of value choice.

Then lets explain the complete absence of authentic communication between kids and parents for fear of upsetting their parents. Its not that the kids are dumb. Their very clear which side their bread is buttered. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in the west. I'm saying the dgree to which it happens is quite different.

In my stereotyping, I would also include Italian, Greek, et al as Asiatic in nature.

You keep suggesting a lack of understanding but that based on your perceptions which I would hold as valid as mine. But we can disagree about that as well.

As for Asian stereotyping, you'll get no argument from me. I would suggest that Westerners don't realise the (huge) extent that Asian nations and people stereotype Westerners, and often far more than Westerners. (I remember my inital shock when my Singaporean colleagues expressed their concern that because I was from Australia I was poor.)

So as that great Australian patriot once said "please explain".

I would have had many, perhaps over a hundred, students and work colleagues when I worked in Asia explain to me that their parents would either cut them off or had cut them off if they did not do what their parents directed. so you saying this is a gentle process of value choice.

Then lets explain the complete absence of authentic communication between kids and parents for fear of upsetting their parents. Its not that the kids are dumb. Their very clear which side their bread is buttered. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in the west. I'm saying the dgree to which it happens is quite different.

As far as I understand, there is a difference between an inherent value system and its effective implementation and communication.

Just because its the inherent value system, doesn't mean that all Asian parents and their children get it right - far from it. But that doesn't negate the value of the inherent capability of the system at large. If there was no inherent value and flexibility for change in these systems, these cultures would have become unstable and not lasted over thousands of years.

Just as you have had hundreds of students and work colleagues say it one way (and I am not negating that because I think your point is genuine), there will be thousand others who will say it the other way. Many a times over-enthusiastic people exaggerate the faults in a system to a visitor or an outsider in a superficial and casual setting (and I have seen this too), but these very same people later in life, or in a more introspective setting, will say it the other way.

In superficial discussions, not just with visitors but even amongst themselves, Asians do trash their value system. However, in deep discussions and when it comes to major decisions in life, they do fall back on the same value systems. And its difficult for a person from a western culture to imagine how deep and secure fall-back mechanisms these cultural and social constructs can be.

To provide an example -

Many Asians cultures have arranged marriages. Many young men and women will superficially trash arranged marriages saying that parents force it on them. However, most of these same young men and women will ultimately end up in arranged marriages when it comes to their own life and its decision. This is because on the surface it seems that parents force it on them (and many parents do that especially in unhealthy home settings) but in most intimate healthy home settings there is a common understanding between parents and children on this, and infact the children use the wisdom of their parents to help them with such a crucial life decision. For every ten men or women who tell you how their arranged marriages have been forced on them, there will be a hundred men and women from healthier family settings who will tell you that it was indeed their own value choice and their parents have been supportive rather than coercive.

Healthy and unhealthy family settings exist in all societies. Unfortunately the unhealthy ones create more drama, get more attention and gossip, remain in immediate and superficial public memory, and get highlighted in superficial and casual discussions. That however doesn't mean that the system in general is unhealthy.

So, the next time Asian students and colleagues tell you how hard their parents have been on them, probe beyond their exaggeration and playing the victim to the system. Scratch beyond the surface and you will realize that there is a deeper value system beyond the "if it were not for my parents" game that they play superficially in casual discussions to get the attention of an outsider or a visitor, or just to tell a nice story for amusement.

Also, what is perceived as a lack of authentic communication between parents and children in Asia by westerners is actually a cultural misconception. There is a difference between respect and fear. In healthy families respect and intimacy allow authentic communication and this is true of the east, as much as it is in the west, though there could be differences in the communication modes themselves - a lot of stress on explicit verbal communication in the west, and a lot of stress on implicit and unspoken and subtle gesture/body language communication in the east. In unhealthy family settings, fear and the need for control takes over and this is true both in the east and the west.

You keep suggesting a lack of understanding but that based on your perceptions which I would hold as valid as mine.

I agree my perceptions could be wrong too.

As for Asian stereotyping, you'll get no argument from me. I would suggest that Westerners don't realise the (huge) extent that Asian nations and people stereotype Westerners, and often far more than Westerners. (I remember my inital shock when my Singaporean colleagues expressed their concern that because I was from Australia I was poor.)

I agree. This stereotyping happens on both sides. And I also agree that westerners are generally more liberal and tolerant in comparison to the huge stereotyping that easterners make of the west.

SenseAtLast wrote: I would also include Italian, Greek, et al as Asiatic in nature.

Excellent. With that statement you just managed to shove the two cornerstones of Western Civilization under the faceless porridge-heap of arriviste insecurity. Well done my boy
You a militant Protestant Puritan by any chance??

To return to the original point...

I have read the book or any articles about it. I have heard the author interviewed a couple of times on the radio along with one of her daughters.

Obviously, I'm not diagnosing her but she does sound rather 'manic'. She will not brook any disagreement with her views and simply resorts to 'if you don't agree with me you don't understand my intellectual point'. Her daughter is vehement in her support - you can actually hear the fear in her voice.

On another point, I abhorr the claim to be 'Chinese' when she was born and raised in the US. To raise herself above her peers because she has parents from another country is rediculous. A very insidious form of racism.

Finally, I do agree on the piano practice. Everyone I know who played as a child now says 'my mom shouldn't have let me give up'. I fought that battle with my son... If only I'd locked him in the basement with the piano and a crazy Chinese woman I could be writting best sellers now.

undenied wrote:Although, in counter-point again: in our society we have a strong bias against Selfish Mothers. This is shown by the fact that:

- Any woman who chooses not to have children is clearly a selfish b****.
- A mother who wouldn't sacrifice anything at all for her children is a horrible terrible person.

Our society has a lot of black-and-white thinking in this case.

So it's perfectly possible that yes, she's using the situation to make herself look better, but she really DOES want her kids to succeed on their own.

I'm interested in responding to the point about sacrifice. First of all, I'm almost completely sure my mother is a narcissistic Chinese mother. I also think it's far from true that most or all Chinese mothers are like that, or "Chinese" in the way the article describes. However, my mother was/is a narcissist. And she's Chinese.

But: Chinese or not Chinese. I actually think the part where people are supposed to "sacrifice" their lives for their kids - I actually think that can possibly be a major contribute CAUSE for why people become narcissistic parents. Oh, they didn't get to have a life of their own that they was really theirs. Now their lives revolve around their kids. Oh they sacrificed so much for their kids, which means now they expect something in return. "Sacrificing" for other people make people expect things in return.

That's even though they didn't lay out any expectations at the beginning.

My mother aside, this is an aspect I think i really bad about Asian cultures. People will be generous and stuff, but there is always an expectation for something in return. (I guess if you're part of the culture and you know that are are ok with it, then it's ok, maybe.)

(That's not how I operate, though. AND, although I wish I didn't have to clarify this, I'm not Chinese.)

The point I made about sacrifice was not to make it sound like it's "ok" for narcissistic parents to be the way they are. No. Nobody has the right to mess up kids' lives because they couldn't figure out their own problems, and had kids when they didn't want to. I'm just (personally) trying to figure out if and how the narcissistic thing ties into Chinese parenting, since I did think that article reminded me of my other in some ways.

Oh, I also just reread the last line of the part I quoted. So, it's COMPLETELY different to want your kid to succeed for THEIR sake, than to want them to succeed to make you look good. Those are different ends completely. In the latter case, which is the one narcissistic parents fall into, they only support their kid as long as the kid abides by everything the narcissistic parent wants that will make them look good as a parent.

If the best thing for a kid isn't going to match the parents' wishes, no more support for them.

Its the same with middle eastern cultures. The kids exist to please the p arents and not shame the family. Parents come before the child's needs. If you are born into tha will not have a life of your own.
Yes, they can be generous. I love how they stuff your face with food to appear so hospitable, but they will talk about people, expect lavish gifts, and latch on like theres no tomorrow.
I think that they -the collective culture anyways-are more narcissistic and manipulative than the westerners anyday. Atleast in the west, we are individuals and we can break free. Hooray for having this chance!

Hm, interesting. I haven't had much exposure to middle eastern culture.

I was interested in putting out a question to other people, who have any thoughts or experience regarding narcissism and different cultures... I'm most interested in the question regarding Asian cultures, because my parents are Chinese, but I guess if you have insights from other (similar?) cultures, I'm quite open.

I'm just curious if a person, for (hypothetically! j/k) example, seems like a narcissistic parent (ok, I'm almost sure they are), and they are Chinese/Asian (whatever culture), and that culture happens to value authoritarian parenting and other things described above in this thread (children exist for the parents, children are supposed to give back to their parents, children are supposed to obey parents, how the children make the family look is important, etc.) - are the apparently narcissistic actions a result of a real occurrence of NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY, or are those actions actually a result of culture?

I hope my question makes sense.

Could a parent be culturally programmed to act in ways that seem narcissistic, when they themselves aren't actually narcissistic in their "real" personality?

(Even when they match the description of narcissistic parents quite well.

I would be curious as to other people's thoughts about this question. Thank you!