Covert narcissist becoming overt narcissist?

Hi all. I just found this forum from a search about covert narcissism. I think I'm a covert narcissist, and really identify with a lot of stuff that angelina3 said in this post: http://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic50407-10.html.

As a child, I was much more overtly narcissistic, but over the years I tried my hardest to kill those tendencies and crush myself with self-loathing. People now see me as just shy and insecure, but I know the underlying reality is much darker than that. I'm lazy and entitled and self-obsessed and don't care about others and see myself as special and want to be somebody important, no matter how much I try to be the opposite of those things. And I can't look directly at those tendencies because it makes me feel utterly terrified, chilled, and hopeless.

I have been in therapy for depression for a couple of years now, and don't seem to be making any progress. In large part, this is because I don't want to stop being depressed, or stop overtly hating myself and grinding myself down, or try to work through my history of childhood trauma by sympathizing with the despicable, rotten, overtly narcissistic child that I was. I do get secondary gain out of staying like this, but my main conscious objection to trying to change is that I think there's a very high likelihood that if I stopped hating myself, or had any sympathy for that child, I would become an overt narcissist, and there would be absolutely no hope of recovery from that. There would be no handles on me anymore; I would just be let loose upon the world to inflict the same sort of stuff on others that was inflicted on me.

I would really like to be able to know for sure that I would not become an overt narcissist, or at least that others would be protected from me if I did. But the only ways I can think of to make sure others would be protected from me are for me to be imprisoned while I work through my childhood trauma and hopefully become a good person, or for someone to promise that they would kill me or imprison me if I did go off the rails. And these things are impossible.

Has anyone heard of a case where what I fear actually came to pass? If it's entirely unheard of for a covert narcissist to become an overt narcissist because they made the mistake of trying to work through their childhood trauma, sympathizing with themselves, or hating themselves less, then I would be more willing to push forward despite this fear. If it's not unheard of... what can possibly be done to prevent it from happening?

Does anyone have any advice?

The one thing I don't like about discussion about pathological narcissism is the different facets of being one.

It's like when you're a young child, everyone needs to fit into a tidy clean mold.

Care less about what you are classified and care more about how to fix yourself.



On a further note, you're not pathologically narcissistic. Narcissism is part of childhood and it come naturally to them. Every child always says "me first" or "mine" and we're all taught to share which comes with age. Narcissism is part of growing up. Pathological narcissism is part of something entirely different. If you know you're entitled you're likely not a pathological narcissist and are just looking for a crutch.

My concern isn't about labels. It's about bad stuff that I'm afraid would happen if I stopped overtly hating myself. I don't care what it's called; I'd be happy to call it "green" or "dog" or anything else as long as everyone understood what it meant.

When I say I was very overtly narcissistic as a kid, I don't mean that I didn't want to share my cookies when I was 3. I mean that my dad was an overt narcissist and he was raising me to be one too: to be a "child prodigy" that showed off all the time, craved praise, had to always be right, was special and entitled and destined for greatness, and looked down on "ordinary" people. As long as I showed off to whomever he wanted to impress when he demanded it, took his word on what I should think and feel, and generally submitted myself to him. And I was what he wanted me to be, and in many ways still am. I only started... trying to be overtly self-hating instead of overtly narcissistic... when I fell in with a viciously judgmental group of conservative Christian kids, at about age 10.

I'm afraid that if I had any compassion for that despicable child, I'd go back to being her... which means I would be a clone of my dad and go around spewing toxic waste at everyone, more than I already do.

(And I do. Everything I've read on covert narcissism describes me to a T. Like this:

The covert narcissist, on the other hand, is more likely to be clinically depressed which once again, extracts pity from those who believe they can comfort, sooth and support someone's depression. That does not mean every person suffering clinical depression is a pathological narcissist but it's something I've noticed after talking with people who have also been involved with someone they believe to be a covert narcissist. How do you confront someone's narcissism if you fear throwing them into a tailspin of suicidal thoughts???? You don't. With an overt narcissist, you may feel confident enough to tell them they're full of themselves but doing that to a covert narcissist leaves us feeling guilty or even culpable when they react in self-loathing ways.

The more Overt Narcissism is described, the more narcissists will mask their arrogance, making it even more difficult for lay-folks to spot their inability to truly empathize, bond, commit to and tolerate the ups-and-downs of everyday life. You may think your partner is humble because he or she appears to be hesitant to stand in the spotlight which is why it's so confusing when they make choices that are extremely self-centered and even vengeful.

That is me. That is how I relate to people.)

So my question remains: how do I try to change, if it means sympathizing with the despicable, rotten child I was and reexperiencing things from her perspective, without falling into a pit from which there is no possible escape?

Like I said before...

You
Are
Not
Pathologically
Narcissistic.

To describe it more,


If you stopped 'overtly' (or in real english, overly) hating yourself, you would not become another form of 'NPD', but another victim of reality.

###$ these definitions, you lack the apathetic nature needed to only care about yourself. You're already placing too much emphasis on other people.

You are using something to describe yourself, and that itself proves again that you are not pathologically narcissistic.

Stop using the ######6 crutch like the rest of humanity.

Overtly is a word. It's the opposite of covertly.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, besides that you disagree with my assessment of myself. What exactly are you suggesting I do?

piss off Notmy, you're focusing too narrowly on assumptions about the cookie cutter type.

justagirl: let me take a stab at this if you're cool with it...

let me get this right. You hate the "narcissist protege" that you're dad trained you to be. You deliberately hate yourself, rather forcefully, from the sound of it to "protect" humanity. If I may take the liberty to read between the lines, this is still all about you hence the NPD you're alluding too.

However, you don't seem to be targeting you the kid you seem to be targeting you're popps. By denying him, what you think he wanted (his expectation of you), you're trying to punish him. Maybe you're doing so (if I'm correct, which is an assumption...you're the only one qualified to say so) because he failed you're expectations. Meanwhile, you're using that as an excuse to play the martyr. What I mean by playing the martyr, is you're holding onto your childhood with a deathgrip as a "what if" to "protect" humanity. What you seem to not see is how narcissistic this is. That you're denying yourself, effectively forcing yourself into self-hate in a nihilistic manner, to prove to yourself that you have humanity's best interests at heart. Just be honest, you don't. You like the idea of being of Mary figure and your inverse-grandiosity is vengeance against your dad.

So, if you let go of your self-hate I seriously doubt you'll become as nasty as you say. You've already set your pattern a long time ago, and your childhood wasn't your fault. Your merely holding onto it because it feeds a sense of grandiosity (that you don't cop to), and it probably gives you supply since folks may feel sorry for you and try to help. Thus, inverse Narcissism.

Hope you don't take this in bad taste or find this post harsh. If so, that's not my intention.

Thanks for your response, Euler.

You are absolutely right about this being narcissistic. I can't keep that in my mind for very long, though, because it makes me feel so sick, like "I'm evil, I'm not a person, I don't have a soul, I'm made of toxic waste, and I deserved to be abused." It feels like looking my narcissism straight in the eye will kill me.

So whenever I try to do this, it just becomes a vicious cycle. I know the standard advice to narcissists is to forget about oneself entirely and form a new identity which is directed toward the service of others; but I can't forget about myself, no matter how hard I try. Trying to forget about myself just means that I punish myself every time I do or think anything that isn't completely unselfish... and then I know the self-punishment isn't completely unselfish, so I do it again, and so on, and so on, until I can't stand it anymore. (automatic thought: "which means I'm an evil narcissist, not a person...")

But even though my being this way may not be any less narcissistic than the alternative, I really do believe it's less harmful to others. As a child, I did some horrible things to other people, things that are pretty unforgivable. Now, because I am so incapacitated by my depression, I've become so socially isolated that most of the time I don't have much of an effect on others one way or the other.

Hence my question: how do I stop being me while ensuring that I do not turn back into her?

No, that's exactly it:

I can't keep that in my mind for very long, though, because it makes me feel so sick, like "I'm evil, I'm not a person, I don't have a soul, I'm made of toxic waste, and I deserved to be abused."

that is your narcissism. Look at the value statements you add to your character. You deserve to be punished because you're "evil". Okay, you're making yourself sound like a potential plague...that's classic grandiosity. Then you follow with the a version of self-abuse, that chances are, you received from your pops. You're not capable of destroying the world and I reckon you're probably one of the most conscientiousness people concerning others out there. So, you're type of NPD, like the rest, is neither good nor bad it just is. However, it does seem to be causing wreckage throughout your life.

but I can't forget about myself, no matter how hard I try. Trying to forget about myself just means that I punish myself every time I do or think anything that isn't completely unselfish...

Please correct me if I'm wrong and/or out of line, but is this simply forcing yourself to feel something...anything at all that would allow you to avoid looking at the void. If so, it seems that forcing yourself to be depressed also serves the purpose of feeding your sense of martyrdom.

If any of this rings true, its okay. Don't state it as good or bad it just is and its your manifestation of the PD. I could be dead wrong here, but I really think you're merely perpetuating the abuse you suffered and choosing a fantasy world in favor of a real one. If so, what do you want out of life? What do you picture life actually being like if you really found a way to deal with this? Wouldn't you like to NOT have to beat yourself up?

Dunno, I'm probably wrong but think about it.

Euler wrote:piss off Notmy, you're focusing too narrowly on assumptions about the cookie cutter type.

Well hello Euler.
I don't seem to know you. I read your post that was continued off of your response, and you seem to know little, if anything, about pathological narcissism. I didn't feel any need to continue to your next post because of this.

It really isn't nice to tell someone to 'piss off' when you have no idea about the subject you are discussing.

One example of justagirl's post that ABSALUTLY states that she is not pathologically narcissistic (maybe narcissistic, but pathologically NO). She states "I'm made of toxic waste, and I deserved to be abused", something of which a pathological narcissistic would never say. She is defending through the defensive, not the offensive, which is frequently used by the pathological narcissist. I am pre-emptively going to state you do not know pathological narcissism well. She is also identifying with you because she agrees with you, and she disagree's with me, and thus is more responsive to you.