n.supply + motivation

I agree. One needs professional support. However, most therapists say: stay away, no contact.

She is so screwed up in her brain that sometimes she can can even mess with mine. I have realised that. Psychological terror is the right word for it.

So, I quit, but did not give up. In a weird way, I do miss her.

I am trying make her understand the meaning of "morality" "reciprocity" "Honesty." She does not get it.

She talks about "Unconditional love".

Shouldn't she rather expect balanced, and objective support for her own self improvement?

"Unconditional giving" would not be love, but giving her carte blanche to do whatever she pleases, right or wrong.

So, in a sense, she is getting "unconditional love" expressed as validation and praise, when she is good, or disapproval when she is out of line. You want the best for the person you love. You must express your disapproval when she acts immorally, unjustly, or dishonesty.

Where Narcs miss the point: They think that criticism is an attack on their personal perfection. In fact, constructive criticism is an aid to perfection.

Optimist,

What do you mean when you say you have quit but not given up?

You say she does not get it when you try to get her to understand morality, reciprocity, honesty. How does she respond when you talk about this?

You write: "Shouldn't she rather expect balanced, and objective support for her own self improvement?"

Does she see herself as needing to improve or in her mind is it you that needs to improve? If she thinks there is nothing wrong with her, she is not going to accept the idea of "self improvement."

She wants "unconditional love," meaning: license to do what she pleases, including hurt you, with no consequences.

What does she see herself as giving you in return for this "unconditional love"? In what ways would she say she is "good" for you?

Unless someone can take responsibility for their actions, and care about how what they do affects you, what hope is there for a relationship with that person?

Optimist,

I notice in your last post that all you talk about is her. You don't talk about yourself at all.

You would like her to understand morality, reciprocity, etc.

You would like her to get better .... for her own good.

What about you? What about what you need?

You are ignoring your own well-being and focusing on hers.

Of course I understand that ultimately what you hope is that she will get better, then she can be with you and you can have the healthy relationship with her you always wanted.

But... what do you think the chances of that are, honestly?

She has a very serious disorder. You don't.

Do you really think you can make her understand things in the way someone without this disorder understands them?

Do you really think you can awaken her to the empathy and love she's never felt?

SoSal wrote:Optimist,

Do you really think you can awaken her to the empathy and love she's never felt?

Why do you think I call myself "Optimist"?

Thanks for this reply Optemist,
(shame about the background noise, not everyone understands the purpose of human communication!).

with a hope that one day she will understand and "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty"

I have a lot of ID with this. When i was with my N., I used to keep adding generosity to the relationship and thinking he'd be freed up and realise theres no competition, i'm not an enemy to be overcome, but .......... err well that was my fantasy, it just became a devaluation slide.

I still need to learn where and where not to make myself vulnerable and wher to be open, and WHERE NOT TO BE. Had a painful debacle only recently! ouch f..ing ouch!

Some people know how to get through to me and I lose all boundaries, say too much, make myself too vulnerable, and then live to regret it, they dont respond.

I am motivated to make her happy, which makes me happy. I have taken time off from work to be with her (reflecting on my previous marriage, where I did not put sufficient time and effort into the relationship), but I wonder if our effort "to save the inner child" is actually part of the problem. We never let them grow up...

Yes, I agree, our effort to reach their inner child doesnt do the job!!
Once hooked in tho its a powerful force to be sure.
we've shared about 'motivation' its also the narcissistic thing, 'the world is about me'. Its how a baby sees the world, which is innocent for a baby, but dangerous in an adult, - trouble is, we get to respond in kind, to mirror their attitude, with me, it happened inside me, he held all the value in the world, and all my value with it. It has 'force field energy'. This is where I believe my disorder is the tesselation of, or mirrors thier disorder. Once i'm triggered I take shape inside inspite of my wiser judgement, I cant rationalise my way out of it. Thats what recovery is for, to solve the problem at a deeper level, inside me rather than in the relationship.

I met my ex N by chance, we talked, I felt the pull of the old manipulation, but had no desire to follow it. Its like being 'under the ether' , we have to come to, come round to reality and then deal with what draws us there in the first place, which is what I'm doing my best to do.

reflecting on my previous marriage, where I did not put sufficient time and effort into the relationship),

Could that be the other side of the coin - your ex was the one in exile? then you wanted to make up for it as you imply....?

for me, also I think stuff left in me from the past was at the root of why i got involved with such punishing, depriving relationships.

river

I just realised something else, optemist, does this make sense to you?

with a hope that one day she will understand and "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty"

that one: when with my N. I was doing the same wishing to CREATE SOMETHING THAT WAS FREE. What i've realise, is that with the exile disorder, there has been a terribly high price to pay for being in relationship, a price for love, usully with a formative relationship, (such as mother?),

Yeah, I longed to create a margin of generosity and good will that we could exist in, like to create something for nothing, ('random acts of senseless beaty etc), to create freedom and generosity to free up the heavy dues on the soul But I did so by giving and giving. I was giving to a black hole tho. He was wired up differently to me. I was feeding the problem, like you said, enabling him as perpetual child.

river.

Riverx,

Strangely, my N would expect me to practice unconditional love. ie. giving without expecting anything in return. BUT, she would attach conditions to almost everything that she did for me.

Often, promises were broken, forgotten, and when I pointed out these blemishes, she would resist, deny and turn everything around.

It is so absurd, that it has never happened with anybody else.

If I invited you to the Theatre, + dinner on me, had I not have change for a cup of coffee afterwards, would you tell me that I am bad not doing everything for my woman?

I did eventually put $4.00 on my credit card, but the whole thing had a bad taste to it. Just the thought that somebody would say:
Do you expect me to pay for the coffee? We are not talking about the first date here, but years of being together, diamond necklaces, and so on.

If I had a child, I would expect him/her to reciprocate kindness. At least to say "thank you".

It is not just my feelings, but the lack of kindness towards ANYBODY.

The same pattern, which I am not used to.

If I had a child, I would expect him/her to reciprocate kindness. At least to say "thank you".

I lead by example in my home. I clean the children's rooms WITH them, they clean the house WITH me. I teach empathy for other's feelings by asking them to think outside their box and attempt to understand other's feelings.

Expectations are dangerous...just in my opinion. I think it's important for me to have my own values and boundaries and for me to care for those, because they are MINE. However, realistically, i have discovered that it isn't realistic for me to expect others to meet my expectations...because once i get all my ducks lined up in a row? The dang little ducks start wiggling and moving around and going places i didnt' want them to!


And that's life!

Jo A'ine wrote:

If I had a child, I would expect him/her to reciprocate kindness. At least to say "thank you".

I lead by example in my home.
Expectations are dangerous...just in my opinion. And that's life!

Jo Aine,

You are back! Glad to see your ariel normal typeface. all others use "huge underlined" How can one communicate like that?

Well, I do have expectations. If I clearly identify what makes me happy, I "expect" people who care, to fulfill some of my expectations. Is my interpretation wrong? Not giving=not caring, or we are just different? I have been trying to figure out what does a N mean by loving somebody? Disregarding the stereotypical analysis of Narcissistic love, what do they mean?

I think i'm in love with you

The first time anyone has called me normal...ever. *bats eyelashes*

('arial normal') Thankyou for the sweet comment, however.

Love is an act of the will, given freely, expecting NOTHING in return.

That is the definition of love that i have learned in AA by my old sponsor.

Alanon has taught me that it is my expectations of a sick person that make me neurotic. I can't expect them to be normal...they arent.

I have to see the situation for what it is...and i do have choices and options.

some are-

i can leave
i can stay and keep on in the same vein
i can stay and know that they are abnormal and ACCEPT it
i can leave and know that they are different and help myself
i can attempt to force them to change

I don't endorse any or all of these, i simply know that they are some of the options.

For me, and all i know about is for me...i was not able to take the actions that i took, alone. I had to take a different route than i knew what to do...and seek help.