Introducing myself as new Member

Thank you all for the warm welcome, I completely see what your talking about lynn. Some of the threads I have read and the responses were quite literally brutal, but so is living with me as well so I don't know if I have come to accept the harshness of some peoples words or if I have just become numb to it. I am currently married, previously divorced and have two children one from each marriage. My current wife is tired of my beahivor and has been standing at the door since my return from Iraq in Nov 06. Due to my behavior through our marriage of 3 years we are at best co-habitants that share a home. Currently I am in the middle of changing bases and jobs so my whole life is in chaos at this moment.

My home life is very hard to swallow and something that I do no enjoy but I am unwilling to throw the towel in and call it quits. I have read so many articles about NPD and how it is uncontrollable or whatever word you want to coin that phrase with. Which my wife has read the same articles and asked me why she should stay when my outcome is so bleak. I am maybe in a state of denial that I can control my NPD, but I am unwilling to just give in to it and just say hey world deal with my jacked up perspective on life. Coming to understand different aspect of my beahvior and what actually motivates me is in most cases very troubling to me, but even when faced change only last at best a week or two.

For me I wonder where I gained this thought process, the one where I am so negative about other people beahviors in my life and how I feel they would do anything to harm my emotions. I don't know if it is my own defense because I might be compelled to do the same, or maybe I am just massively insecure and allow my brain to race away at the speed of light, or lastly where did I see or learn the behavior from. I lean more toward and mixture of the first two that I mentioned.

I have been mulling over the thought of starting to go to Al-Anon meeting but don't know if I would truly benefit form the program or not. My wife describes me as a alcoholic that doesn't drink, I am still up in the air about it at this time though. As for my Army life and career, it apeals highly to my NPD because I am quite good at my job and have enjoyed excelling at it and basking in the lime light so to say.

A'ine your story and post have shown me incredible hope and the will to grab my boot straps and plow threw what is ahead of me. I know I have a lot of hard work in front of me still and years of it at least. But I would just like to say thank you for your threads and posts to other people's questions and stories.

seek2understand wrote::) This is my first post here. I have read some of the threads, finding the information and feedback here to be valuable.
I am a 49 year old single mom. I have three kids, 2 girls in their mid twenties and one son who just turned 20.

Hi Seek. Sorry for the very late post but I didn't see this earlier.
I too am a single mother with one grown son, and two kids (18 and 16) still at home. My mother was both alcoholic and diagnosed NPD.

My part is that I was not strong enough to get out before I did. After having removed my ex from my family, however, I compounded the problems for my son by entitling him, giving him special allowances for everything from his personal behavior to monetary things. I have codependently tried to feel my son's pain for him, protect him from the "cruel world," and have ultimately raised him to be unaccountable, unrealistic, unempathetic, and irresponsible... I have been working on my codependent issues. It has been hard for me to detach and "let go" of my compulsive need to protect (control) my son.

You, it appears, are the mother of someone with NPD - I am the daughter of someone with NPD. Although we may have different perspectives because of our differing roles in relating to someone with NPD, we are similar in that we are both codependent. It's hard not to become codependent in relationship with a person with NPD unless, of course, you aren't their mother or daughter in which case you have the option to leave if you decide you can't/won't tolerate the situation. But codependency is eminently curable, and I see you're on the road to giving up saving your son from himself. I know for me, it was an eye-opener when I realized that I could 'detach with love' from my mother, and take good care of myself without having to insist on hating her first. I didn't want to hate her. Just wanted to get free of her hold on me, and free of the various methods I'd been taught in which to disregard my needs and always give preference to her needs. Short term therapy helped me to break free from her years ago, and Alanon taught me to give up my codependent ways. I'm still a member of Alanon all these years later - I credit it greatly with helping me to become willing to let go of all the 'bad' in my life - the stuff that just wasn't working at all - and recognize and accept and develop the 'good'. It's really freeing to realize that we can't control others... we can't even control ourselves... to just give up that whole false impression that we have the degree of control that we think we do.

I like that this forum offers many different perspectives. I have found the posts to be generally very genuine and openly honest. I appreciate the humor found here too.

I am learning from all the posts on this forum too. Sometimes I can 'hear' my mother in a post that someone with malignant NPD writes.. she could easily have written it in just the same tone and attitude. Her words and interactions with others could be flattering and candy-nice if she wanted something from you, or flatly logical and rational and unemotional if she wished to prove a point or show her intelligence, or cutting/biting/caustic if she thought dismissively of you. Or she could have no words at all if you were, or had become, insignificant and not worthy of her attention. I see all of those attitudes displayed in this forum.
I also get value reading the posts of some people with NPD who are not flatly accepting of the disorder, and are struggling with it to try to facilitate personal change. I'm really like reading those posts. I used to believe that there was no hope for change for anyone diagnosed with NPD, but I no longer believe that. I read too much Sam Vaknin and others with a like mindset. Although I'm not convinced there is a cure, I now definitely believe that positive change is possible because I'm seeing it occur in the lives of some people with NPD and/or strong traits.

I want to be free of my codependency. I want my son to be free to become independent and learn from life's lessons.

I know that there's definitely freedom from codependency - it's true for me. Feels soooo good to be free of unhealthy attachments and free to just be authentically me. My kids have benefitted greatly from my own getting healthy and I'm grateful it happened for me while they were still young so they don't have to carry the burden of all the stuff that my codependency would have done to them. It sounds to me that you're making a good start on your own freedom, too.
As you already know, you can give your son his own freedom but what he does with that will be up to him. It's so hard to watch our kids struggle and fail or get messed up or hurt or harm themselves, isn't it? But we have no real control over their lives after they are adult age, do we? So why pretend that we do? It just hurts us and hurts them.

Glad to meet you. Hope you continue to write here. I look forward to reading your words and maybe sharing with you as you give up codependency.

LifeSong

RichM wrote: Some of the threads I have read and the responses were quite literally brutal, but so is living with me as well so I don't know if I have come to accept the harshness of some peoples words or if I have just become numb to it.

Hi Rich. Welcome. LifeSong here. My mother is diagnosed NPD. So I've lived with NPD all my life. Do you see yourself in any of the harsh or brutal posts? Just curious since you've said that you have an unusually high degree of empathy.

I am currently married, previously divorced and have two children one from each marriage. My current wife is tired of my beahivor... My home life is very hard to swallow and something that I do no enjoy but I am unwilling to throw the towel in and call it quits.

I admire you not just walking away, and her as well. But you're going to have to find way to work harder and more successfully at altering your NPD behaviour in order to not harm your wife and children. As a child of an untreated mother with NPD who would not go to therapy or otherwise seek changes, I can tell you for a fact that living with a person with NPD harms all the other members of the family. Sometimes, those with NPD or other disorders, or their wives/husbands, think that the children won't be as effected as are the adults... this isn't true. The nonPD parent thinks they can 'protect' the children and mitigate the damage... again, not really true. While assistance in dealing with the NPD can be given to the child by the nonPD parent, and that is of some help, there is no real protection against the effects of living with someone with NPD - it is seriously damaging to all those in close relationship with the person with NPD, especially children since children have developed no defense mechanisms and tend to internalize the NPD's behaviour towards them. For me, even though my father attempted to run interference between my NPD mother and me, and I am glad that he tried and was as effective as he was, there was still incredible harm done to me and it required considerable therapy for me to reverse the effects that my mother's NPD had on me, despite my father's standing in the gap to try to protect me.
I hope that some of your reluctance to not just walk away is because you are considering your children as well as your wife, and reflects some resolve on your part to address and change your NPD behaviours.

I have read so many articles about NPD and how it is uncontrollable or whatever word you want to coin that phrase with. Which my wife has read the same articles and asked me why she should stay when my outcome is so bleak. I am maybe in a state of denial that I can control my NPD, but I am unwilling to just give in to it and just say hey world deal with my jacked up perspective on life.

From what I've learned and seen of those with NPD, I don't think there's any cure, but I do believe that change is possible. I've seen it occurring in people with NPD and/or strong traits. It seems to take extremely serious intent to change, willingness to work hard at it, an ability to get vigorously honest, and have some capacity for empathy. Since you've said that you have unusually high degree of empathy, change sounds possible and hopeful for you if you want change badly enough to persevere in various avenues to facilitate change. For the sake of your children (as well as your wife and yourself), I hope you do.

I have been mulling over the thought of starting to go to Al-Anon meeting but don't know if I would truly benefit form the program or not. My wife describes me as a alcoholic that doesn't drink, I am still up in the air about it at this time though.

My mother is also alcoholic though she'd never admit it - she's never admitted that she's been diagnosed with NPD either. She holds tenaciously to her stance that there is nothing particularly wrong with her - it is everyone else.... So, no hope for change there.
My advice to you is to not pursue Alanon. As someone with NPD, you are probably not codependent and do not have to learn to detach from others, and try to identify and meet your own needs (ha!). But you would probably get much help from AA. Alcoholics are notoriously selfish by nature, and self-serving, and me-first in their thinking, and users of others, and pretty oblivious to the pain that their behaviour gives to others. AA has many strategies to overcome the ego and cease putting yourself in first place all the time. Perhaps that's why your wife says you are a nondrinking alcoholic. Frankly, many alcoholics no longer drink but their lives go merrily along as they use and abuse the others in their lives by their own continuing self-centered way of living. In fact, many people with NPD are also users and/or addicted to substances. Gotta cope with the pain in some way, eh?

Anyway, welcome here and I hope you keep writing. It would be so good to see you change. I DO believe it's possible. Maybe not probable but for someone with determination and using a variety of methods, I believe it is definitely possible. Good luck.

LifeSong

Hi Rich. Welcome. LifeSong here. My mother is diagnosed NPD. So I've lived with NPD all my life. Do you see yourself in any of the harsh or brutal posts? Just curious since you've said that you have an unusually high degree of empathy.

Lifesong, thank you for the response to what I had posted, I do see an extreme amount of me in the various posts and it make me angry and upset that I too act the same way. I am in no way trying to put anyone else down, but my emotions comes from the fact that I do want to change but in many of my previous attempts I have seen little to no sucess. I sincerely don't want to harm the people I love the most but it has gotten to the point where those people have started to question the love I have for them. For me personally I can easily point out to other people what they need to fix and various way of doing it, but when my emotions are invested I freeze up and can't see past my own wants, needs, desires, and thoughts. LOL at this point I don't even know what normal behavior is, I thought I was acting weird the other day talking to my wife on the phone so I called back to apologize for making it so weird and she said me calling back was weird and that I acted fine.

I become so wrapped up in my thoughts and my own emotions about what other people are thinking about me and how I might be able to fix it, that I don't even realize that I am causing more damage that way. I want to scream I want to throw things I just want it to end, and I know it will never end, it will just become controlled in the end. Knowing that part about it too pisses me off, was I not a good enough kid or what? What or where did my mental health get derailed? Or is this just the N in me trying to place blame?

For me I know I had a rough time growing up, coming from a broken home at the age of 3 and being the oldest of 5 what I do remember is not very fond. Don't get me wrong my parents did the best they could but my mother took a lot of her divorce and anger out on me by hitting me. Something that to this day she won't admit and probably never will considering we are no longer on talking term due to another situation which would be another post entirely. I was forced into the role model seat when I was a kid and that I had to be a good example to my brothers and sisters. WOW I can't believe how emotional I am becoming just typing this out, I am going to wrap this one up here for now, call it how you see it

Here's a brief intro for me:
I am a middle-aged, female, mother of 2 boys. I worked in mental health and substance about for 12 years but no longer do that. Now I own a small business. I am married ( 20 years) to what I believe is a narcissist and probably alcoholic. After 10+ yers of verbal and emotional abuse, I have withdrawn emotionally and sexually from the marriage. The effects of the constant anger and discord in the family is now so evident in my children that I can't just live in denial anymore. So, I am seeking advice from those of you who have lived with this and can help me decide how to move forward.

His demeaning and abusive behavior has erroded my self esteem and turned me off sexually. He feels entitled to sex, regardless of how he behaves towards me. He feels entitled to sex because he makes more $$ than me. He refuses to engage in any discussions about the relationship unless I fufill my 'wifely duties'. This feels like a line in the sand. It also feels like another control strategy, on his part. However, this family is so close to imploding that I can't allow his hostile behavior towards all of us to continue unchecked.

Financially, I am dependent on his income to support our family. My business isn't profitable enough. We have no savings, live from paycheck to paycheck, so there are no resources to support 2 households in a divorce. There is also substantial debt in legal problems related to drinking.

This issue of sex is driving me insane! It has made sex repugnant to me. The insults he throws at me and the descriptive terms he uses to talk about sex are so disgusting that it has turned me off completely. Why would he want to have sex with someone he has no respect for. He withholds money ( to pay bills)because there is not sexual relationship; he withholds all emotional involvement yet can't see how that just makes sexually intimacy more unattractive. Obviously he lacks empathy, lives in a self centered universe and other classic narcissistic behaviors.

(Please excuse my spelling errors.)Thanks

Toodeebug,

Welcome none the less, as a man with N I can understand your story for it is the same one that I have written with my wife. She doesn't want me to even touch her and has asked me to not tell her I love her any more. Throughout our marriage I made her feel like a whore and that I was entitled to sex as her husband. Now through therapy and support groups ( AA and this forum here) I am trying to change but she does not wnt to trust it or believe that I can change. It is very true he lacks all empathy and is self absorbed in his own wants and needs and that need is being sex. I even at one point told my wife our baby was getting more attention than me and it needed to change. I am suprised that you have lasted this long in the relationsip, I hope some of the people here can help you out and give you some advise, considering that I am a N, sorta hard for me to give any advise on really how to handle him considering I am still trying to get a grip on my own self still. I will pray for you and hope you continue to post here and let us know how things are going.

Toodeebug, welcome.

I'm not exactly sure what it is you are asking, your opening paragraph mentions advice on how to move forward, so I'll see if I can assist. But I'm not sure you can as it sounds like you are too busy in damage control to start getting creative about moving forward. However......

It's worth pointing out that IF your business becomes profitable he's very likely to sabotage it. He uses finances to control so it's unlikely he's going to let you operate financially viable business (my partner sabtoged my home business by not participating and actively NOT participating in anything at all, threatening to turn off the internet whenever he got the poops, which was often and saying he'd 'help' me when I requested but then never getting around to doing any of it, in the end, I sold the business to free myself up with time to spend with our 4 year old) so while you're working 100 hours per week and not receiving much money for it, you are exactly where he wants you to be. The odds are that if you start pulling some good money from the business his legal debts through drinking will escalate, he may even choose a new avenue, like gambling, to spend money on, and as long as you continue to contribute the worse he'll get.

Essentially, bottom line, he's an abusive narcisssist and you are in a domestic abuse situation, so the best thing you can do is avail yourself of the DV support network in your area. That is what I did, and it's helped me separate emotionally from the wreckage my partner calls a realtionship and see the whole thing from a 3rd party non-emotional standpoint. Since February, I've sought my own counselling, read stacks of books on verbal abuse, narcissism and related topics and attended a DV support group each week for about 30 weeks.

The DV network in your area will let you know what financial assistance you are entitled to. Please make sure you don't assist him with any financial stuff, keep the money to yourself, and if he incurs more debt ensure it is in his name only. If it's in his name, no-one can come and chase you for it (theoretically), so keep yourself detached from HIS debts.

Our situations have many similiarites in so much as we operate/d our own businesses, relationship is non-sexual, partners have financially ruined us (mine introduced a $120,000 tax debt, my money is now mine and I'm not giving him 1cent more) and I'm sure we could find some more to add to that.

Oh, and it's not the sex, don't let it bother you, believe me if you were having sex 3 times per day, he'd find something else to abuse you with anyway. It's so important to remember that what he does and says isn't about you. He's the one with the abusive nature and there's nothing you can better, faster, quicker, sexier that is ever going to make him happy and satisfied - never!

The more he knows the topic of sex is driving you insane, the more he's going to mention it and use it to control other aspects of your relationship. Let it drop, act non-plussed about the whole thing, don't respond and it may lessen and eventually fade away.

You see, with these men, it's all about what is important to YOU that becomes their tools to use against you, to abuse you with. Usually it's the kids, then there's pets, then there's sex, finances, always verbal of one form or another, your spirituality, your family and/or friends and in worse cases of abuse, always the physical.

If you are a reader, I highly recommend anything written by Patricia Evans check at your local library, her books should be in stock, www.patriciaevans.com

In summary to help you move forward which will involve you regaining your self-esteem, confidence and getting your 'voice' back, you need to look at your relationship as a domestic abuse one and seek the appropriate help that will get you to view your life from the correct perspective, once you've achieved that your mind will have calmed as your stress levels reduce as you realise his problems are HIS problems and need not be yours. At the moment you are too enmeshed emotionally in what he is doing to you within the relationship to see and think clearly.

Hope this has helped some.

I am also going to jump in on this thread because the discussion seems mature and constructive. I can see some nice personalities here.

I have not been diagnosed with NPD, in fact I live in China (which as a white, Chinese-speaking guy does wonders for my ego / self-image) so I don't see any chances for an official diagnosis in the near future. However the pain I have caused to partners and the nature of my relationships with others prompted me to think that I may have some personality disorder. After googling for an evening I seem to match a lot of the criteria of what you are all referring to as a N.

Like RichM, I am not ready to open my heart on this forum yet but it worries me that I probably have such a serious problem that is not often treatable. I am 34, is it really possible for me to learn how to empathize at this age?

Rather than dwell on symptoms, causes and past wrecked relationships right now I want to focus more on something RichM touched on - my attempts to change in any meaningful aspect of my life never last more than a few days or weeks. I have come to the conclusion that this is a lack of motivation on my part. Why change? It has been easier just to be me, go somewhere else, play the same record.

I don't want to keep doing that for the rest of my life, and I don't want to keep hurting people emotionally because they get too close to me. However realistically I am not going to bite the bullet, go back to England and get treatment, especially as apparently it rarely works.

I know these forums must be very repetitious for the regular posters, but maybe someone could post some tips on self-help and things to remember as I go about my life in the coming weeks and months (or even give me a link). It may help me enormously.

I guess telling / admitting to friends that you have a NPD is not going to be terribly productive

Sorry if this is effectively a hijacking of the thread, it just seemed a little more relevant to me than some of the others.

I am now in a kind of denial phase - convincing myself I am actually less of an asshole than maybe I painted myself to be.

One thing that has been bugging me - pretty much all my serious past girlfriends have had either no father figure in their lives (died before they could forge a relationship) or had an extremely weak one (absent or indifferent to them).

Is this trend consistent with women who are attracted to people with NPD?

Yeah, it is.