Pareidolia

Midwinter wrote:1. Wrong forum.

2. Everyone experiences pareidolia from time to time. It is normal for the human brain to make visual sense of something it can interpret.

Some of you are making extremely ridiculous correlations between NPD and other "disorders" or phenomenon. You are not the only one, shanzeek. Two variables does not imply causation. In the same way, a correlation between pareidolia from hypervigiliance/neurotism doesn't imply causation from NPD, and the other way around.

Akuma wrote:In my case, since I'm visually handicapped with a resolution problem, I sometimes see stuff transform multiple times before I can actually see what it really is.

A few days ago I saw a panther with wings in the street though. I'm pretty sure it wasnt there!

shanzeek wrote:I meant experiences of pareidolia more frequent than "from time to time", my brain is at all times focused on finding patterns.

shanzeek wrote:I think there's also audio pareidolia, have you experienced that?

This I am interested in. Because you said you experience pareidolia from time to time. I do not experience hallucinations, or seeing stuff that isn't there to the extend where I notice it. Is there a link between vulnurable NPD, and some of the dissociative/hallucinative/psychotic traits of the borderline type. They are both highly neurotic. I am not making a correlation here, since PDs is often rooted in non-psychotic behaviour, but I am interested in your thoughts on this (as well as Akumas... And Kimera. Damn I miss that bich).

Akuma wrote:This curiously reminds me of a time when I felt very bad after some love thing didnt work out, so I suppose that I heard someones voice here and there while that wasnt him. I think thats pretty well-known in bereavement and loss that people erroneously perceive their lost ones in the street etc.
But apart from that this happens extremely rarely, like maybe every few years if at all.

I see objects and patterns in many things all the time, but i think i look out for them because it makes life more enjoyable.

Alright, so here is a question for you to steer this topic in on NPD;

Do you think that those that experience a type of vulnurable/covert NPD are more likely to experience hallucinations/dissociation/things like pareidolia than their grandiose counterpart?

This I am interested in. Because you said you experience pareidolia from time to time. I do not experience hallucinations, or seeing stuff that isn't there to the extend where I notice it. Is there a link between vulnurable NPD, and some of the dissociative/hallucinative/psychotic traits of the borderline type. They are both highly neurotic.

I dont know about specifically vulnerable NPD, there is a weak link between NPD and psychosis tho. I have to look for the text when I feel better, m yhead is acting up today.

Theseus wrote:Lovers and madmen have such seething brains,
Such shaping fantasies, that apprehend 1835
More than cool reason ever comprehends.
The lunatic, the lover and the poet
Are of imagination all compact:
One sees more devils than vast hell can hold,
That is, the madman: the lover, all as frantic, 1840
Sees Helen's beauty in a brow of Egypt:
The poet's eye, in fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven;
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen 1845
Turns them to shapes and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name.
Such tricks hath strong imagination,
That if it would but apprehend some joy,
It comprehends some bringer of that joy; 1850
Or in the night, imagining some fear,
How easy is a bush supposed a bear!

p 131 wrote:Although grandiosity occurs in both NPD and psychotic
disorders or schizophrenia, the presence of psychotic illness
and loss of reality testing contraindicate a diagnosis of NPD
(O. Kernberg, 1990). Nevertheless, experiences of severe
narcissistic disillusionment can without necessary support
develop into worsening narcissistic psychopathology
(Ronningstam et al., 1995), which in severe cases may
include specific grandiose delusions or paranoid revengeful
reactions.
Kernberg, O. (1990). Narcissistic personality disorder. In
R. Michaels (Ed.), Psychiatry (chap. 18). Philadelphia:
Lippincott-Raven.

Pincus, The PNI wrote:Grandiosity and vulnerability exhibit distinct and substantively meaningful
patterns of correlations across measures of psychopathological symptoms
in both normal and clinical samples. Ellison, Levy, Cain, and Pincus
(2009) found that Grandiosity is significantly associated with presenting
patients’ initial scores for mania and violence and that Vulnerability significantly
predicted presenting patients’ initial scores for depression, psychosis,
and sleep disturbance.
Ellison, W., Levy, K. N., Cain, N. M., & Pincus, A. L. (2009, November). The
impact of client narcissism on psychotherapy course and outcome. Paper presented at
the mid-Atlantic regional meeting of the Society for Psychotherapy Research,
Philadelphia, PA.

ibid wrote:In a student sample, Miller, Dir, et al. (2010) found
that Vulnerability exhibited significant correlations with anxiety, depression,
hostility, interpersonal sensitivity, paranoid ideation, and global distress. In
contrast, Grandiosity only exhibited a significant negative correlation with
interpersonal sensitivity.
Miller, J. D., Dir, A., Gentile, B., Wilson, L., Pryor, L. R., & Campbell, W. K. (2010).
Searching for a vulnerable dark triad: Comparing factor 2 psychopathy, vulnerable
narcissism, and borderline personality disorder. Journal of Personality, 78,
1529–1564. doi:10.1111/j.1467-6494.2010.00660.x

Simonsen, Comorbidity between NPD and Axis 1 wrote:The prevalence of personality disorders in schizophrenia varies greatly in the few studies that
have been carried out (e.g., Newton- Howes, Tyrer, North, & Yang, 2008). Until this century
most data were based on samples of patients with chronic schizophrenia, in which it is likely
that course deterioration has confounded the findings. Prevalence rates for NPD in these samples varied from 5% to 16%. Unfortunately, all relevant studies used retrospective designs and small
samples. Psychotic disorders among inpatients were likely to be diagnosed with personality disorder
in general, as well as more often in association with NPD, although insignifi cant (odds
ratio 2.8, CI: 0.5–14.1) (Oldham et al., 1995). But there were no differences between median
number of personality disorder criteria met for narcissistic inpatients with and patients without
a psychotic disorder.
In a study of 102 recovered schizophrenic outpatients, Oulis, Lykouras, Hatzimanolis, and
Tomaras (1997) found that 15% met criteria for DSM- III- R NPD, whereas Solano and De
Chavez (2000) found a 5% prevalence of NPD in 40 schizophrenic patients. Finally, in a clinical
epidemiological study of 32 fi rst- episode psychotic patients, 16% met criteria for DSM- IV NPD
(Simonsen et al., 2008).
Narcissistic personalities tend to reconstruct reality to match their image, which they are
unable and unwilling to give up. This rigid distortion of reality and their fantasy and illusory
world may make the aloof narcissist vulnerable for psychosis, but little empirical data are available.

Newton- Howes, G., Tyrer, P., North, B., & Yang, M.
(2008). The prevalence of personality disorder in
schizophrenia and psychotic disorders: Systematic
review of rates and explanatory modelling.
Psychological Medicine, 38, 1075–1082.

Oulis, P., Lykouras, L., Hatzimanolis, J., & Tomaras, V.
(1997). Comorbidity of DSM- III- R personality
disorders in schizophrenic and unipolar mood disorders:
A comparative study. European Psychiatry,
12, 316–318.

Oldham, J. M., Skodol, A. E., Kellman, H. D., Hyler,
S. E., Doidge, N., Rosnick, L., & Gallaher, P. E.
(1995). Comorbidity of axis I and axis II disorders.
American Journal of Psychiatry, 152, 571–578.

Simonsen, E., Haahr, U., Mortensen, E. L., Friis, S.,
Johannessen, J. O., Larsen, T. K., . . . Vaglum, P.
(2008). Personality disorders in fi rst episode psychosis.
Personality and Mental Health, 2, 230–239.

Solano, J. J. R., & De Chavez, M. G. (2000). Premorbid
personality disorders in schizophrenia. Schizophrenia
Research, 44, 137–144.