Morbid jealousy and covert narcissism? Very common?

Hello,

I am 31 years old and from Belgium. Sorry for my bad english. I have been reading the last weeks in this forum here. I have self diagnosed myself with covert narcissism some months ago. I know it is not a good idea to make a self diagnosis, but all the traits from covert narcissism seems to be me :/ .

Sorry that can be a long text, it is hard for me to keep it short.

So now my problem, all started after I moved in with my girlfriend in an other city where they speak french (I am german-speaking, but not a german). I lived by my parents before.
My ex-girlfriend decided suddenly to help a iraqi refugee who was living in an apartment of her grandfather. It was her aunt that introduced him to my ex-girlfriend. Her aunt takes care a lot of him, so she buys him a lot of stuff, goes shopping with him, sees him almost everday. She already did that thing of caring a lot with her kids and her nephew. I don't know I think she needs that.
I was getting upset when my ex GF told me that she wanted to see him and do stuff with him. I couldn't understand why out of nowhere she wanted to do that. She told me that she wanted to help him and wanted to have a friend in an amicable manner. I was feeling a hurting jealous pain when she told me that first and I was getting angry and insulting her. I told her that I don't understand why she wanted to do that out of nowhere and that her family have a huge problem with wanting helping people in an exaggerated way which I found not normal. I started having ideas in my head that she would just wanted to sleep with him and was looking for sex with somebody else. In her family, the family members have often a partner from an other country or an other culture (like myself), so I was thinking that subconsciously she would be attracted by that guy and fall in love or have sex or kissing him. I thought she would be guided by his subconsciousness. I don't know I am strong believer, that we do a lot of stuff which is guided by our subconsciousness, that makes us do things or getting sick because of unresolved conflicts comming from our ancestors. There is an interesting book about it from Anne Ancelin Schützenberger who talks about genosociogram.
My ex GF worked a lot, she opened her own creche/nursey school in february 2016. She woke up at 6 and came back home at 7-8 in the evening. During the weekend she worked also very often. I helped her a lot in the nursey school, cause I had no job, I didn't know what to do and I wanted to please her. But I was not very happy that she had not much time for me and our relationship. At the same time, I couldn't stop thinking about the iraqi guy, she went to see him sometimes after work. She told me he wanted to help him to learn french. This was outraging me I reproached her that she gives a crap about me and the relationship and that we don't see us much and with the little time that she has she would prefer to see him instead of me.
I was getting mroe and more jealous, I couldn't eat anymore (still today), I was getting depressed, couldn't stop thinking about her and this guy, couldn't sleep anymore, I was thinkint I would crazy, I was feeling hate and some other weird negative feelings for her.
I was always imaging that she would go see him after work or writing him. I knew that she was writing with him a lot, because he texted her a lot. I was raging (not physically) and reproaching her that he was hitting on her, but she was denying it. But I could not believe her, I was getting really paranoid and couldn't stop thinking of having her and him sex together or that she find him attractive and would flirt with him or making eyes at him.
On her birthday, she went after work to the guy, because he wanted to give her a birthday present, so she came late back. I was just feeling worthless and I was raging again. I threatened her to break up with her and faked a telephone call to make her believe that I wanted to move out. I told her that I would have kissed almost an other girl. I thought that could make her stoping seeing the other guy. But it had no effect on her. She just told me that if I would cheat on her, that would mean that I would be unhapp with her. She would be said, but all she wants is that I would be happy, even if that would be with an other woman.
I thought I would get crazy about this jealousy, I was feeling an incredible pain and depressed and I started controlling her. I had a feeling that I couldn't live anymore like this and I would die because of the pain I felt. I knew her facebook password (what I have never done before) and I used it. So I read the messages she wrote with the guy, I saw that he was hitting on her by sending a lot of kisses, hearts and telling her that he would miss her and writing her all the time. I confronted her with the messages, she said that she would sent back kisses too because she wanted to be polite. She insists of the fact that she do not hit on him, and that she loves me and don't want to be with that guy, she only wants a amicable friendship and helping him, that's all. She also told me that he finds him pretty, but not more (that was blessing me alot). I couldn't believe that she was first denying the fact that he was hitting on her.
She told me that she would not stop writing him, because even if she would stop writing and seeing him, I would be jealous of the next guy.
But what she did was going to the iraqi guy and told him to stop sending hearts and that stuff. But he didn't really stop it.
I mutaded to a completely control freak. I was intrepting every stupid random thing as a sign of wanting to cheat on me with the other guy. I couldn't stop watching on the little led light of her mobile phone to know if she had a text message from the guy, or when she was waking up in the morning I was thinking that she would put some pretty clothes in her backpack to put them on once she left the apartment. Or I found a bracelet in her backpack and reproach her that this was from the guy (she said it was from a kid from her nursey school). I the aprtement I was following her everywhere, cause I didn't not want that she writes him.
Due to the hate feelings and the other weird negative feeling I had for my ex GF, I started getting panic attacks. I imagine that I wanted to hurt her, when I saw a knife I was feeling so bad and afraid that I could hurt her. I could not get rid of this jealousy and these hate feelings, so I thought I had to hurt her. Those thoughts were getting compulsive and I couldn't stop thinking of it. I thought I would be a sociopath or a psychopath and saw myself in prison, because I could kill her. I was feeling getting completely crazy and be a victim of my emotions. This jealousy was depressing me so much, I just wanted to kill myself. I thought I am a psychopath and that I have to go to prison because I wanted to hurt her so much.
I was even getting jealous of her mother, because he had a good relationship with her and she made a lot of stuff with her. I was also jealous of his cousin, who touched her a lot and told her that she was a pretty girl. I know it was not in an incest way, but it was feeling like that, even if it was not the case.

We broke up and I moved out back to my parents. But I am still having this sick jealousy which is killing me inside.

I already had a weird problem in a relationship where I suddenly started hating my girlfriend for the reason that she had an other culture and accent than me. This hate expanded on a whole country, where the people made me depressed when I saw or heard speaking them. I am feeling like a mentally disturbed person.

Some months ago when I was still living by my ex GF, I started searching at the internet, because I knew that something is very very wrong with me since ever. I always knew that I was different and that I am reacting not in the same way as other people do. So I googled my symptoms and I found "covert narcissism", I was shocked about it, all the traits, that was me, all my life I have been like that, but never knew what was wrong with me.
I am so easily hurt by others, I can not take any criticism, if someone critism me I want to take revenge (I want him to make pay so that he can feel what I feel), I take everything personal, I am very shy and introverted, I feel like $#%^ and have a very low self-esteem, I hate myself, I have the feeling that I make everything wrong and that everyone can do it better than me, I feel like noone loves me (I know that people are telling me that, but I can not feel it), it is hard for me to make decisions, there is nothing that I like doing in my life and don't know what I like, I always feel a void in me, I don't know who I am.
I lack of empathy, I have only negative feelings like anger/anxiety/hate/jealousy, I don't have positive feelings like joy, I feel a shame for what I am and that I can not change myself, I feel worthless and unloved, I can't be happy for some else, when I was 18 my aunt died and I did feel nothing (same for my dog), I have this narcissistic rage in me especially if someone criticize me it can show up (but I have learned to take it less personal), I have these grandiose ideas like I want to be a good guitar player without doing something for it, or I want to learn chemistry by myself so I buy a book but I never use it than I feel inferior, I told my ex GF that I had already 2 broken arms because I found that sounded cool, I need a lot of attention, I can also fake tears because I think that is maybe the right emotion I a normal person should have in this situation, I want to be admired, I don't like it to be the center of attention if there are too many people, I only feel better when other people reassure me, I also lie but mostly to defend myself for example if somebody asks me if I like tomatoes I say yes even if I dont like them I don't want to be criticize for it, I want to please others, I always do what other wants (I don't know what I want myself).

I am making a psychoanalytic therapy since november 2016 once a week (I can't do it more, cause I have to pay it on my own, thx you Belgium :/). I told my psychoanalyst that I think that I am suffering from covert narcissism, but he doesn't even know the subtyp, he only knows the classic narcissism. So he doesn't think that I am a narcissist, he believes more that I am suffering from an attachment disorder. He also told me once that maybe I have borderline, but he ruled that out because if I would be borderline my environment would already have told me that I act sometimes in a crazy way.
He wanted to make a psychoanalysis with me, but he said that I am too depressed and anxious for it at the moment. So he proposed me seeing a psychiatrist and to ask for drugs.

Two weeks ago I went to the psychiatrist and I told him why I came to him and that I think that I am suffering from the covert narcissistic personality disorder. He didn't know either the subtype covert. He just made an anamnesis, but didn't prescribe me any drugs :/ . I asked him for antidepressant or anxiolotics, cause I am suicidal and depressive and that I see no more way out of it. He just said that he wanted to see me several times, before he does something. I know he is right, but I am getting crazy here and can't wait anymore 2 weeks more for the next appointment.

My question is, is jealousy very common for the covert subtype?

I am afraid of having covert narcissism, I don't want to offend anyone, but it makes me wanna end my life. If am really suffering from it, that means that I can never get over this jealousy cause I would be part of the disorder. And if the jealousy would come from a very low selfesteem, I would have the jealousy forever and those hate feeling for my partner too, because unfortunately there is no cure for narcissism. So I would have this low selfesteem forever.
With this jealousy I can not be with anyone in a relationship, but at the same time I can also not be alone, I am soo scared of beeing alone and abandoned. I don't know what I want in my life, I have been depressed since I am a kid and always been very anxious. I had obsessive compulsive disorder when I was a kid, which reduced my anxiety, sadness, the feeling of beeing abandoned and that something bad could happen to me or my mother.
I mean it is like a nightmare, narcissism pushs you to live in a relationship, but mostly we can not live in it because of our disorder, and at the same time we can not be alone because we need supply :/ . So there is no way out, especially because there is no cure. I can't sustain this inner pain anymore to be this bad human beeing.

I just hope that the psychiatrist can help me what I really have. I also have lyme disease, a traumatic brain injury when I was 16, maybe and a non verbal learning disorder, maybe these 3 things ###$ up my brain :/ and have to live with mental illnesses now my whole life.

Sorry for this long text.

I was going to say, it sounds like the issues you describe may be related to OCD as they seem to have quite a obsessive/intrusive element to them which reminded me of OCD. I don't know if I have NPD or any PD but I have severe OCD which includes obsessive/intrusive thoughts so I know more about that. Sorry that your therapy hasn't been that helpful. If you are able to see another therapist maybe you could ask them about it. CBT is the reccomended treatment for OCD. And it can be an effective treatment for immediate symptoms like thoughts and behaviours. I think that could be a good start for you and you could look into CBT yourself and do the exercises without having to see a therapist if you can't afford one. There is lots of information online and there are some books on it (I prefer having an audiobook personally as I find reading whole non-fiction/self-help books not my thing in terms of concentration so just saying there are different ways to learn CBT which may suit you and hopefully help you somewhat).

Other types of therapy are best to deal with more 'deeper' (so to speak) or underlying issues you may have. And even for something like OCD, it's an unhealthy coping strategy most likely due to an underlying feeling of lack of control and some kind of emotional difficulties which may be suppressed too. So whatever your issue is I think something like CBT could help you deal with some immediate symptoms but also look into some other treatment in addition to that possibly too.

With regard to potential personality disorders of course I am in no way qualified or really that knowledgeable to help you. But I do think if you have one then you can still change the things which are bothering like everything you describe. At least to an extent. You don't have to be 'cured' of having a 'personality disorder' in order to do that. I think there's a difference... and many people with personality disorders suffer from mental health issues too which can definitely be changed. And like with anyone can change various thoughts or behaviours which make things difficult. So whether you have a personality disorder or not, I think you can change some things in order to make your life easier. It's definitely very possible.

Btw I think you're sense of hopelessness about that sounds like it might a bit intrusive/obsessive (like I said it reminds of my OCD...?). Correct me if I'm wrong but as I have it myself it just reminds of obsessive OCD type thinking. The OCD forum on here is pretty dead last time I checked I think but there are other OCD forums too. I know the OCD subreddit gets a lot of posts and I find it helpful to read them sometimes as it reminds me not to let my own obsessive thoughts get too out of control.

From my limited knowledge what you describe does sound more like BPD traits than NPD. Fear of abandonement, not wanting to be left alone etc. And it doesn't really sound like a good enough reason to rule it out that you said your therapist gave? So maybe you could get a second opinion one day on that if you get to see a different therapist again. I'm not saying you have BPD though obviously.

I don't really know what to say about the jealousy etc. itself as I don't experience it but it sounds difficult. Maybe someone else could offer advice about that.

Well a pwNPD or pwCNPD doesnt care about having NPD, so while that doesnt eliminate the possibility of having it, the chances that you have it get reduced quite a bit when you are harboring those kinds of self-critical thoughts.
Now some people here hold the opinion that self-reproach is typical for NPD, I personally doubt that. I think your amount of self-reproach is rather typical for other illnesses, or at least we usually see people coming here with that kind of "I am crap, and I possibly have NPD, which is horrible" attitude who are more in the masochistic or OCD range, as lyratheowl pointed at. Sine your issues seem to be based on attachment.problems though I would rather suggest psychodynamic / tiefenpsychologisch-fundierte therapy.
Now if jealousy is typical for (C)NPD, its not. Simple reason being that NPD is a borderline disorder and jealousy is not a borderline phenomenon, but a neurotic phenomenon. Of course the question is were you really jealous or do you just call it that way, which raises a complicated question as to the difference between jealousy, envy and the realisation of two-ness, or a lack of omnipotent control. But with your PA already ruling out NPD, I think you can be rather sure that the assessment was accurate and ignore such thoughts for now.
On anothe rnote, maybe that is you coloring the description, but from the story it sounds really like your Ex was qutie ignorant and unempathetic, and maybe really more interested in the Iraqi dude than you. It really doesnt sound like you were a good fit to start with if she's so laissez-faire about a relationship while you want an almost purely dyadic one.

Hello,

Thx you Lyrathoewl and Akuma (I will write you back in a second post) for your reply.

lyratheowl wrote:I was going to say, it sounds like the issues you describe may be related to OCD as they seem to have quite a obsessive/intrusive element to them which reminded me of OCD. I don't know if I have NPD or any PD but I have severe OCD which includes obsessive/intrusive thoughts so I know more about that. Sorry that your therapy hasn't been that helpful. If you are able to see another therapist maybe you could ask them about it. CBT is the reccomended treatment for OCD. And it can be an effective treatment for immediate symptoms like thoughts and behaviours. I think that could be a good start for you and you could look into CBT yourself and do the exercises without having to see a therapist if you can't afford one. There is lots of information online and there are some books on it (I prefer having an audiobook personally as I find reading whole non-fiction/self-help books not my thing in terms of concentration so just saying there are different ways to learn CBT which may suit you and hopefully help you somewhat).

It is quite possible that I have OCD :/. Maybe a mix of OCD NPD BDP :/ I checked the OCPD forum, but realized that there is a difference between OCD and OCPD. You mean OCD and not OCPD right?

Yea my thoughts are obsessive and intrusive, I can not stop thinking about something that bothers me. It is impossible for me to stop the thoughts it is like I couldn't oppress them, they are omnipresent, everything makes me remember them. Even if I can make it to stop a thought, something else, a place, a situaton, an emotion or whatever will remember me the thouhgts again. I have the feeling that something in my brain is just broken, so that my thoughts can not be oppressed by my subconsciousness :/ . I know people that can forget problems just by doing their job, but me I just can't, it doesn't work for me.

I guess my nonverbal learning disorder could also itensify the OCD, cause I felt very overwhelmed to cope wiht a lot of things when I was kid, and I still do these days.

Don't feel sorry for my therapist . I told him about my problems with OCD when I was a kid, but he just said that is not rare to see kids doing that to be able to cope with emotions like fear and so on.

I have never done a CBT myself in my life. I have a bachelor in psychology, but I never worked in it, because I don't feel good about myself and I would be incapable to work in it. Our orientation during my studies was psychoanalytic, so we didn't see much about CBT during highschool. But I think it is mostly based on your behaviour, how to change it and so on right? Do you also look in a CBT foor the roots of your obsessive complusive disorder?

lyratheowl wrote:Other types of therapy are best to deal with more 'deeper' (so to speak) or underlying issues you may have. And even for something like OCD, it's an unhealthy coping strategy most likely due to an underlying feeling of lack of control and some kind of emotional difficulties which may be suppressed too. So whatever your issue is I think something like CBT could help you deal with some immediate symptoms but also look into some other treatment in addition to that possibly too.

Hm what kind of other therapies do you have in mind?

I have the strong feeling that there is an underlying issues since I know OCD from my childhood. I had a lot of obsessive compulsive disorders problems when I was a kid. I used to count to 4 8 12 16 20 24 and so on. I couldn't fall a sleep if my alarm clock showed an uneven number (especially 7), so I waited until a number with 4 appeared like for example 22:24. I had to touch 4 or 8 times the doorknobs, saying 4 or 8 times a specific name in my head, only walking on the white strip of a zebra crossing, touching 4 or 8 times my hand an so on. By and by I was accumulating more and more of these compulsive actions, which degenerated in rituals where I had to follow a certain number of complusive actions in a certain order. I also increased later the number from 4 and 8 to 16 32 64 times. That all helped me to avoid feelings of fear, beeing abandoned, sadness, horrible things (end of the world) that could happen to me or my mother or that I could die, and so on. I was controlling my emotions in some way by doing that, it gave me the illusion that I could prevent external things from happening or that I could make away bad feelings which I could not endure alone.

The obsessive compulsive disorder disappeared at the age of 19 when I started to have a big life crisis where I didn't want to live anymore. That was the moment when I started hating my ex Girlfriend during that time, I couldn't understand why I had such terrible feelings for her and for a whole population from where she came from, that made no sense to me. I had the feeling that I had lost all my emotions, that everything seemed to be absurd to me and that I couldn't feel any love anymore. I wanted to get rid of this feeling of hate for my ex GF and the population, but it couldn't make it away. I wanted to die if I couldn't get rid of this problem, cause life made no more sense to me without emotions or beeing able to fall in love again. So today I am more or less in the same situation as 13 years ago, where I can't feel love, there is no solutionor cure and just wanna die. I still have that feeling of hate today and I don't know why. But it remembers me somehow narcissistic rage :/

lyratheowl wrote:With regard to potential personality disorders of course I am in no way qualified or really that knowledgeable to help you.

Don't worry, I am glad that you talked about OCD. I was thiking about that too if there is maybe a link between this and OCD, but I was not sure, because my psychoanalyst didn't talk much about it when I mentioned during a session of my OCD in my childhood.

lyratheowl wrote:But I do think if you have one then you can still change the things which are bothering like everything you describe. At least to an extent. You don't have to be 'cured' of having a 'personality disorder' in order to do that. I think there's a difference... and many people with personality disorders suffer from mental health issues too which can definitely be changed. And like with anyone can change various thoughts or behaviours which make things difficult. So whether you have a personality disorder or not, I think you can change some things in order to make your life easier. It's definitely very possible.

Hm that is the problem, I have the feeling that I can not resolve this intrusive thoughts while having a covert NPD. Mostly a morbid jealousy comes from a low self-esteem, fear of beeing abandoned, and from other stuff. So those are problems you are dealing with NPD and since there is no cure, you can't get rid of this sick jealousy :/ . Plus it is already hard for normal people and often impossible to get rid of morbid jealousy so how should someone with a PD get rid of it :/

lyratheowl wrote:Btw I think you're sense of hopelessness about that sounds like it might a bit intrusive/obsessive (like I said it reminds of my OCD...?). Correct me if I'm wrong but as I have it myself it just reminds of obsessive OCD type thinking.

Hard to say, but it is possible. My hopelessness is coming from the fact that I think I have covert NPD and there is no cure for it, which leads to the fact that I can't get rid of this painfull jealousy since in my mind it is coming from NPD. But you see maybe how my mind is working, I have one thought which leads to an other thought and this thought leads also to an other thought and so on. It is like a chain of thoughts which gets uncontrollable and get longer and longer.

lyratheowl wrote:From my limited knowledge what you describe does sound more like BPD traits than NPD. Fear of abandonement, not wanting to be left alone etc. And it doesn't really sound like a good enough reason to rule it out that you said your therapist gave? So maybe you could get a second opinion one day on that if you get to see a different therapist again. I'm not saying you have BPD though obviously.

I do not have this impulsivity that people with BPD experience, I am more the type who is trying to control and not show his emotions. But yea BPD came also to my mind, this fear of abandonement and not wanting to be left alone makes me also thinking of that in some way.

I am also seeing a psychiatrist. I saw him only once 2 weeks ago and I will see him again on thursday. I hope he is going to make a proper diagnosis, but he also doesn't know what covert narcissism is :/ , looks like nobody knows what it is :/

Hello Akuma,

thank your for your reply.

Akuma wrote:Well a pwNPD or pwCNPD doesnt care about having NPD, so while that doesnt eliminate the possibility of having it, the chances that you have it get reduced quite a bit when you are harboring those kinds of self-critical thoughts.
Now some people here hold the opinion that self-reproach is typical for NPD, I personally doubt that. I think your amount of self-reproach is rather typical for other illnesses, or at least we usually see people coming here with that kind of "I am crap, and I possibly have NPD, which is horrible" attitude who are more in the masochistic or OCD range, as lyratheowl pointed at.

I have those self-critical thouhgts and self-hate a lot, but this self-criticism is one of the core problems of covert narcissism no? I mean they hate themself (like I do) and criticize themself a lot for what they are, so one day they will ask themself why they do that and why they can't stop doing it. Plus this critical thoughts that a cNPD writes down in a forum could also be a mask no? Seems to be a bit complicated :/

I mean a lot of people in this subforum here are selfaware pwCNPD, so it doesn't seem to be that rare that people find out that they have a cNPD.

Yea I have read some of the threads where people were telling that they think they have a cNPD. I was recognizing myself in their posts, that was scaring the $#%^ out of me.

Akuma wrote:Sine your issues seem to be based on attachment.problems though I would rather suggest psychodynamic / tiefenpsychologisch-fundierte therapy.

This is the first diagnosis I have so far. I already went once 13 years ago to a psychiatrist, but I didn't really talk much about myself and he diagnosed me a depression.
I mean my psychoanalyst doesn't even know what cNPD is :/ and for my psychiatrist the same, both have never heard about the subtype, so the chance that they will diagnose me as cNPD is pretty low :/

I have read that pwNPD have often an attachment disorder too. So since my psychoanalyst doesn't know cNPD he maybe confound the smyptomes of NPD with the symptomes of an attachement disorder. I compared both disorders and I find them to be very similar .
I already checked for a psychologist in Belgium who is specialzed in NPD, but I couldn't find one nearby.

Akuma wrote:Now if jealousy is typical for (C)NPD, its not.

Well that's weird, are you sure? I have found a lot of stuff at google just type narcisstic personality disorder + jealousy. Here on this site they are talking about pathologic jealousy and NPD :/ http://thenarcissisticlife.com/the-narcissist-and-jealousy/
I have also read about jealousy and pwNPD from a lot of reports of victims :/ . Seems to be very common, which scares me.

Akuma wrote:Simple reason being that NPD is a borderline disorder and jealousy is not a borderline phenomenon, but a neurotic phenomenon.

Sorry I don't get you, NPD is a borderline disorder? What do you mean by that?

In the search function here in the borderline subforum I have looked for jealousy and I got 88 pages about jealousy which seems a lot to me :/ . I have read that a lot of borderliner are jealous.

Akuma wrote:Of course the question is were you really jealous or do you just call it that way, which raises a complicated question as to the difference between jealousy, envy and the realisation of two-ness, or a lack of omnipotent control.

My psychoanalyst doesn't even know neither where my pathologic jealousy comes from. He told me that my jealousy seems to be possessive which makes me think again of narcissism :/ . He says that I want an exclusive love from my partner. Beeing the only that she loves.

Akuma wrote:On anothe rnote, maybe that is you coloring the description, but from the story it sounds really like your Ex was qutie ignorant and unempathetic, and maybe really more interested in the Iraqi dude than you. It really doesnt sound like you were a good fit to start with if she's so laissez-faire about a relationship while you want an almost purely dyadic one.

Yea true my description is colored by myself, because I am bit paranoid about it so I can not really write it down in an objective way.
Well my ex GF is very spiritual. She said that she only wanted a friendship and that she likes helping people (what is true). She is an open person and interested in everyone and interested to meet new cultures and new people. For her, life is making new experiences. She always had been that open minded, their parents are very open minded too.
I was getting so paranoid about that jealousy that I asked her if she will kiss him or having sex with him once we break up. And all she said was that she doesn't know, she doesn't know what life brings or what happens in the future, that's something you can never know she said. I whish she had said something like that she would never wants to kiss him or something like that. I don't know she never really tried to appease my jealousy (however, I am not sure if that really would have solved my pathologic jealousy).

Sorry when I sound sometimes a bit harsh.

Hi,

I'm having a migrain since yesterday so I'm going to make it short, hoep I make sense, too. If I dont please ask again.

I have those self-critical thouhgts and self-hate a lot, but this self-criticism is one of the core problems of covert narcissism no? I mean they hate themself (like I do) and criticize themself a lot for what they are, so one day they will ask themself why they do that and why they can't stop doing it. Plus this critical thoughts that a cNPD writes down in a forum could also be a mask no? Seems to be a bit complicated :/

I have almost all the literature about NPD but I cant remember anything about self-criticism being essential. A lot of people who suppress their [pathologicl] narcissistic needs are unhappy though which is kinda natural.
Another problem is that CNPD is used for different disorders. The study situation at thsi point is that there have been a handful of studies that show there are different subtypes, but there is no clear, accepted definition of CNPD; which is also the reason why a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists dont know about it. I had self-dx'd with CNPD f.e. and I am now diagnosed with a narcissistic-schizoid-pd.

Yea I have read some of the threads where people were telling that they think they have a cNPD. I was recognizing myself in their posts, that was scaring the $#%^ out of me.

I'm not sure if it was Jasmer or me or someoen else, but we did ask around last year about how people react[ed] to having NPD. None of the diagnosed pwNPD cared. It would be weird, too, in a way, eventho very early and mostly unconscious th structure got created due to a choice. So I think that being scared of having NPD is usually a big flag that you dont.

Akuma wrote:This is the first diagnosis I have so far. I already went once 13 years ago to a psychiatrist, but I didn't really talk much about myself and he diagnosed me a depression.
I mean my psychoanalyst doesn't even know what cNPD is :/ and for my psychiatrist the same, both have never heard about the subtype, so the chance that they will diagnose me as cNPD is pretty low :/
I have read that pwNPD have often an attachment disorder too. So since my psychoanalyst doesn't know cNPD he maybe confound the smyptomes of NPD with the symptomes of an attachement disorder. I compared both disorders and I find them to be very similar .

Well its different approaches, too. The PD is a structural approach really that is a bit more - eh - open? than attachment-stuff. Its different ways to look at things, attachment is more interpersonal. Bowlby and Winnicott come to mind, they were psychoanalytic, but they didnt look at these problems from the perspective of PDs, but from the perspective of how the child develops attachment to the primary caregiver and which problems might arise. Its not an either-or, Bowlby might have said you have an attachment-disorder, while someone else might say you have this or that PD; its not exclusive.
Which gives you the opportunity to select that works better for you - if you think that PD makes you too negative, self-reproaching and frightened, just look from the attachmetn sperspective.

I already checked for a psychologist in Belgium who is specialzed in NPD, but I couldn't find one nearby.

In Germany you can be hapyp if you even find a psychologist who is good at all. Just look for that and go along with it imo.

Well that's weird, are you sure?

I'm sure. If you go thru the literature on it by the experts its not a word you find very often.
That doesnt mean that people with borderline disorders cant be very jealous very often, though. I can have ridiculous jealousy based even on non-existing relationships with urges to kill etc. for example, but its not an essential thing, plus its not used to diagnose NPD.

Sorry I don't get you, NPD is a borderline disorder? What do you mean by that?

Its an older classification, where psychological pathology was trated as either neurotic, borderline or psychotic. BPD and SPD are pretty close to psychoticism, NPD is a bit less due to the narcissistic self being protective of psychosis... It has to do with the way the personality has been structured in toddler-years and early-childhood; the word was invented afaik by Otto Kernberg who stuedi BPD quite a lot.

In the search function here in the borderline subforum I have looked for jealousy and I got 88 pages about jealousy which seems a lot to me :/ . I have read that a lot of borderliner are jealous.

As I said its not impossible but jalousy is not a symptom of a borderline structure The reason si taht jealousy needs 3 people, while the borderline structure is in itself a structure about duality, about mother and child, or about primitive part-objects and part-child. You cant be jealous if you dont even realize theres a third person. Of course in an adult there is intellect and other parts of the personality, but many parts that have been set-up for relationship interaction, affective regulation etc. mihght be stuck in that borderline / early-childhood state. So there might be primitive envy, rage etc. but not jealousy. Its a bit complicated but its essential to get this, at least for the therapist hehe, because the approaches to get rid of it are different.

My psychoanalyst doesn't even know neither where my pathologic jealousy comes from. He told me that my jealousy seems to be possessive which makes me think again of narcissism :/ . He says that I want an exclusive love from my partner. Beeing the only that she loves.

Yea as I said it might be due to a part of you seeign the loved object as part of you and then becomign angry about not having this non-duality and the essential control. But it might also be due to fear of abandomnet. Again, two things with different therapeutic approaches. So I would try to be cool about it, lets hope you find a good therapist in the future who can then walk this path nd figure this things out with you and get rid of them.

Yea true my description is colored by myself, because I am bit paranoid about it so I can not really write it down in an objective way.
Well my ex GF is very spiritual. She said that she only wanted a friendship and that she likes helping people (what is true). She is an open person and interested in everyone and interested to meet new cultures and new people. For her, life is making new experiences. She always had been that open minded, their parents are very open minded too.
I was getting so paranoid about that jealousy that I asked her if she will kiss him or having sex with him once we break up. And all she said was that she doesn't know, she doesn't know what life brings or what happens in the future, that's something you can never know she said. I whish she had said something like that she would never wants to kiss him or something like that. I don't know she never really tried to appease my jealousy (however, I am not sure if that really would have solved my pathologic jealousy).

Sorry when I sound sometimes a bit harsh.

My energy is fading now. But I stay with it, she isnt very empathetic. Spiritual really is just another word for self-centered and ignorant in my book I come from fundamentalist sect background I know my $#%^ lol. But I think a better person would have tried to give you more peace and make you understand. She certainly didnt help the situation imo.

Ok I will loose consciousnes sno wlol. L8r.

Akuma wrote:I have almost all the literature about NPD but I cant remember anything about self-criticism being essential.

I took these notes from a talk by Elsa Ronningstam on YouTube:

Self-criticism:

• A central underlying disposition in pathological narcissism and NPD that contributes to fragility and fluctuations in self-esteem.
• Tends to inhibit and impair executive functioning and enforce hiding or misjudgment of both self-enhancing strivings and of actual ambitions, competence and achievement.
• Associated with excessive focus on failure, maladaptive perfectionism, inferiority and shame.
• Can become part of a vicious cycle of self-deprivation and excessive demandingness, caused by failure in self-control.

If she's calling it central does that mean essential?

Yea thats in her book, too. And of course people with CNPD can and will be jealous and self-critical. But the question is really does a pwCNPD actually self-ciriticise consciously and due to what and would they selfcriticize themself for [possibly] having CNPD; and are those instances of self-criticism fe. a result of their narcissistic pathology. The pattern that I see often here is rather that people are very self-critical and then they find CNPD or something as a possibility to carve in stone how completely hopeless and ###$ up they are. Tbh I dunno if this is the case with the OP, but there have been quite a few people like that. It makes you feel they want to have CNPD; because its an untreatable condition - or so they say - so they can lie down and be dead as they should be, because theyre such hopeless, crappy things. So whiel self-criticism might be diagnostically relevant, it might not necessarily be so for CNPD.

On a more technical note, self-criticism and shame in my opinion should be mostly unconscious in e person with any form of NPD. Secondly I've quickly looked at Ronningstams source, she seems to look at Akhtar for the self-criticism part, who again looks at Nemiah, and writes

In 1961 Nemiah (15) described individuals with a
"narcissistic character disorder" as displaying great
ambition, highly unrealistic goals, intolerance of failures
and imperfections in themselves, and an almost
insatiable craving for admiration. Such individuals,
according to Nemiah, do very little in life because they
want to; their actions are constantly influenced by
what they think will make others like them.
Nemiah postulated that if the parents set unrealistically
high standards for the child and if the child
cannot live up to those standards, the parents treat the
child with harsh criticism. The child internalizes these
parental attitudes, and as an adult he demands too
much of himself and becomes very ambitious. He also
criticizes himself and reacts to even an ordinary setback
with a dismal sense of inadequacy. Such an
individual becomes "a prisoner of his aspirations, his
needs, and his harsh self-criticism."

So this again brings me at least to the point where Im surrounded by questionmarks as to what CNPD actually means, because this sounds more like the TS/FS situations described by Winnicott for example and rather seen as underlying schizoid, not narcissistic problems.
ut again, I think its more imporatnt to see why a person needs such a designation anyways and or becomes frightened by it. Peopel sometimes are just scared because its a useful secondary gain after all. etcetc bababa. talking too much today. need to buy groceries ;>_>

but from the story it sounds really like your Ex was qutie ignorant and unempathetic, and maybe really more interested in the Iraqi dude than you. It really doesnt sound like you were a good fit to start with if she's so laissez-faire about a relationship while you want an almost purely dyadic one.

I really disagree, he was trying to control her and decide in who she gets to see or doesn't see and she responded in a proper way. She was helping a refugee and you call her unempathetic? He even broke into her account (I would broke up for this) and found NOTHING on her side, she even asked the guy to stop sending smileys and hearts. She's not ignorant but the OP has serious self-confidence and trust issues, and she is right - even if she dropped the iraqi guy, he would become jealous of someone else. The only thing she should have done differently was maybe to take you along so you can meet him and so he can see she's in a relationship.

I really do understand the feeling of jealousy well, I often feel it, but I'm aware it's my problem, not my boyfriend's.

Shanzik wrote:I really disagree, he was trying to control her and decide in who she gets to see or doesn't see and she responded in a proper way. She was helping a refugee and you call her unempathetic?

Theres no proof for her helping the Iraqi due to "empathy". People do these things out of boredom, helper-complexes, self-centered spiritual delusions and yea of course also due to being nice and out of empathy. But why she did it in this case - its not clear here.
What I see here is that she went over his fears pretty much and didnt really care about the relationship so deeply. It seems to me - again as I said may be highly colored by his description and of coz also my own ilness - that she just saw him as one possibility of many and she didnt notice that he saw this different and chose not to care about it, nor inquire into it.
Now... groceries ffs. It will rain soon >_<.