Raised to become a narcissist... ?

I am the child of a narcissistic father and a co-dependant very sweet and kind, but unfortunately also very enabling mother. I am still learning the "Narc terminology", bear with me! I won't be going into detail here, no reason to waste your time with that.

See, my brother was a very normal, average person. As far as I can tell, he seemed to experience emotions normally and was generally a loving person. My absolutely favorite to be around when I was younger. He is older than me and made almost the same experiences with our father that I made. He once told me, in a very long rant (which I now completely understand was mere projecting) how he is sooooo different from him and that he simply hates him. I don't. I just don't care any longer and that's simultaneously the best and the worst I have to offer. Fast forward - When he, my brother, entered his 20s, he made a 180° turn in character. These days I would say he simply lacks any at all, is now a spitting image of our father. After multiple attempts to violate me, I completely cut all contact. He could not handle that and seems to have been taunted by his inner circle of people for that and has since then tried to creep back into my life. First by being superficially charming and manipulating, then by threatening me. Not a chance, though.

Did our father sculpture my brother into this? Or did he only plant little seeds which then only blossomed because my brother actually decided to water them? Genetic predisposition? Creepy coincidence? Traumatic brain injury? I heard it all. If you are a narcissist, in hindsight; was there a defining moment for you? Or was it an accumulation of narcissist injuries? Or do you think you were born the way you are now? Any input would be appreciated.

I am an Aspie and have Avoidant personality disorder. And I am now in this age, my early 20s. Recently I have been reading a lot on here and saw quite a few people make the connection between AVPD and NPD; saying Avoidant PD could be seen as "soft narcissism" and whatnot. Someone even pointed out that AVPD people fit the mold to become narcissists later in life perfectly. I found it deeply offensive and turned off my computer. About two hours later, I felt really silly because of this. On an intellectual level, completely seperate from my personal wounds, this of course is an incredibly fascinating connection to make. And so I resumed the reading. All this comes down to is me wondering if I should be afraid of my own shadow.

Ambodexter wrote:Did our father sculpture my brother into this? Or did he only plant little seeds which then only blossomed because my brother actually decided to water them? Genetic predisposition? Creepy coincidence? Traumatic brain injury? I heard it all. If you are a narcissist, in hindsight; was there a defining moment for you? Or was it an accumulation of narcissist injuries? Or do you think you were born the way you are now? Any input would be appreciated.

If your father was pathologically narcissistic, he would have treated you like an object to reflect his "father" image back to him -- when he wanted it reflected. If you reflected it when he didn't want it, you would be a burden. For example, if you had needs which his inner-narrative (his present state as it is guided by his inner-Confabulation, his historic narrative, historic revision to reality) wasn't presently scripted for, he might devalue you and treat you like a burden holding his life back (rage at you; silent treatment; inappropriate affect for the frustration you've caused him, he's feeling something from a different frame of reference unrelated to you). In the 0-6 age range this can leave you with the same troubled mind that he was left with, perhaps a disturbed personality like his.

I think genetics play a role. For example, some people have harder or softer temperaments, more creative or analytical. It seems reasonable such in-built characteristics contribute to how one individual responds to stress/trauma (as an infant), or might even trigger mildly dysfunctional behavior in a mildly neurotic parent. For example, recently I read something theorizing if a baby's temperament is mildly autistic (mildly Aspergers?) and behaves more self-sufficiently (aloof), a mother who herself is needy might feel rejected by her own child. She might not feel she's experiencing the ideal mother/child relationship she expected for 9 months. This could affect how she treats the child (a vicious cycle, taking it too personally due to a frame of reference that doesn't apply to her baby).

It could be many unfortunate factors. I don't think "sculpted" is the right word. I doubt there was intent to create a grotesque statue of himself. If your father was pathologically N, the result would be that. But, it's a natural process of someone who shouldn't have been a father serving as a mold to someone who needs (and will be) sculpted.

There was a recent discussion or two about how APD differs from NPD. I think it was @wodienjong. You could search his posts or PM him.

Thank you for your reply and your example using autism was really interesting, as I do know a woman who completely screwed up her son by being angry at him for... Well, having been an autistic baby. Unfortunately such cycles truly do exist, yes.

I've always known my father as a narcissist, though my family of course did not have that terminology or concept back in the day. Everybody says he's been that way since childhood and that they don't remember him any differently. They said he got worse the older he got, but it was always there. My brother on the other hand seemed to develop into this direction in his mid 20s. If you imagine my situation, only knowing my father, now all of a sudden narcissistic traits were not something I thought people were simply born with or at least raised with, no, they accumulated after so much time. It scared me, because it made me think about my "potential" in that regard. I am the polar opposite of most things NPD, but then again, I thought the same thing about this person I once cared for so much.

For some months I hoped this to be a mask, with the real person hiding beneath for some reason I don't understand. But nowadays I am asking myself if the gentle, loving and caring brother has not been the mask all this time? I don't think so. If anything, it has truly been a loss. I am very angry at my father because of this, it's hard to see it in any other way than him having taken my brother from me.

I agree with TTL on this. Your father didn't set out to turn your brother into a copy of himself like they way one decides to make a sculpture as you put it; but his own "narrative" (as TTL calls it) caused him to act in ways that tended to cause him to raise a son like himself. It wasn't conscious, it hardly ever is.

I think of NPD like a contagious illness--it's the Typhoid Mary of psychiatric disorders, and N parents tend to create N children, B children, or codependent children (and sometimes all 3 in the same child!), depending on the child's own temperament/role they played to the parents (scapegoat or golden children).

Like you, for over a decade I identified as an Aspie, due to my inability to relate to others in a normal way. I became self aware as N almost 3 months ago (I came in here with quite a bang--raving like the Borderline I am about it!) and realized then that my "Aspergers" was really a form of narcissism! This upset me a lot at first; I am starting to accept it and find ways around it/to deal with it. I also have Avoidant PD and I've sometimes wondered if AvPD and cNPD are the same disorder. cNPD isn't recognized yet, but AvPD is. I think there's a lot of overlap. But underlying covert narcissism is a lot of envy, entitlement, and anger that I think is lacking in true avoidants (though it's possible to be both). Of course, avoidants feel those emotions too because they tend to isolate themselves and sabotage opportunities for themselves that can lead them to become resentful and envious. After all, almost all humans have at least a little narcissism (which is healthy in low doses). Covert narcissism is also very similar to BPD, only CNs tend to be shyer and more socially reticent/awkward than borderlines.

I could go on, but I just wanted to acknowledge your post and let you know I can relate to what you're saying. Welcome to the forums.

Interesting. It's such a pity how often Narc behavior will rub off on someone, I know it did on me for a, thankfully, very limited amount of time. Having seen all this vicious behavior, there is something that tells me that my father wanted my brother to become like him. But you guys probably are right, it is what it is.

Ladywith3cats wrote:Like you, for over a decade I identified as an Aspie, due to my inability to relate to others in a normal way. I became self aware as N almost 3 months ago (I came in here with quite a bang--raving like the Borderline I am about it!) and realized then that my "Aspergers" was really a form of narcissism!

Thank you for being welcoming! If you don't mind me asking this, how come you identified with that, out of all things? I understand if (covert) Narcs identify with AvPD traits. But autism? It surely has so many comorbidities, but at the end of the day, any form of autism is a very glaringly distinct experience. If you didn't experience sensory overload and overall funny processing, meltdowns and shutdowns, "special interests", obsessions, repetitive patterns and rigid routines, what made you think that? The often cited linked social difficulties? I'd understand that. But that has very little to do with being autistic.

So far I have only read about people (ab)using Asperger's Syndrome for that cause, no other form of autism. I guess people just view Asperger's as the best option in the worst scenario, so to say. That whole incredibly flawed idea of mild autism and whatnot. Aspies as being able to pass somewhat, other forms of autism as a mental handicap. Blergh.

All I can tell you is that having been born autistic and therefore grown up with all the difficulties, the sensations and experiences of an autist (more troubles than triumphs), it is beyond me how someone would, well, either want to identify with this or how it would even occur to them in the first place, with all the symptoms needed, that autism is what ails them. So lack of self esteem, social difficulties or childhood trauma = automatically Asperger's seems too blunt for me.

BTW, still letting the AvPD-cNPD theory sink in myself. It's too logical, almost. It really upset me, but it is something I feel I have to grapple with.

Ladywith3cats wrote:I think of NPD like a contagious illness--it's the Typhoid Mary of psychiatric disorders, and N parents tend to create N children, B children, or codependent children (and sometimes all 3 in the same child!), depending on the child's own temperament/role they played to the parents (scapegoat or golden children).

Personally, looking at to own history, i'd say there is some heredity, like you say. I'd say there is heredity in lack of personal space. Narcissism can mean, in my mind, lot of pressure on oneself. Pressure on the children. No space.

As the youngest, i think i had a little less pressure of the parents. More of the siblings and the family all together. I was supposed to save the world. Still struggle against that. Still struggle with myself for being simple human. For living, just living and no guilt and breathe and love and live. Own life.

Ambodexter wrote:Having seen all this vicious behavior, there is something that tells me that my father wanted my brother to become like him. But you guys probably are right, it is what it is.

What you probably saw was transference and projection. Similar to the example of him being angry at his girlfriend who sleeps late, but depicting you (coming to work on his house at 6am) as the malingerer. It looks intentional/calculated to onlookers. But, it's probably not like that. For me, it was/is like a mild yet compelling schizophrenia. It's like part of my mind is watching a TV show and judging reality by it. It's not so schizophrenic that I would walk around arguing with an imaginary antagonist. It's more functional, but affects my reality in a dysfunctional, patterned way. It was something I thought everyone exists with (driven by).

Have you read much about NPD? The following will help you with the basics. The first link is a kinder/gentler presentation compared to the second, which is written by an N (for those harmed by Ns, which makes it more frank and direct.):

n-continuum: N Key -- Health to pathological: http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2013/11 ... hy-to.html
Vaknin 9-chapter "World of the Narcissist:" http://samvak.tripod.com/msla6.html
cNPD: http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... ssist.html
Differential Diagnosis: http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcis ... nosis.html

Ambodexter wrote:how come you identified with that [Aspergers], out of all things?

You asked @Lady3. I also identified with Aspergers. It was due to the low-level schizophrenia mentioned above. The inner distraction and reality not conforming to my expectations (the inner TV show). I identified with the "outsider looking in" phenomenon. It seemed like social ineptitude, lack of empathy, "marching to a different drummer."

Ns also seem to have high IQs. I was in Mensa when I was 21'ish (just 4-5 years after dropping out of high school). My mind was always active, hypervigilant to my surroundings, identifying defects and solutions which nobody saw nor needed. Very much "inward facing."

Right on the money. He's morbidly obese and called me fat every day. Was called out on his ignorance and complete resistance to progress and adapt all his life, yet calls me mentally challenged. He never had a true friend, so he told me I am not worthy of friends and everybody around me only tolerates me. There's a pattern I only now see that I have completely removed myself from him. I don't take it to the heart any longer, I am beginning to understand it a bit better. It's really interesting. Once devastating, now interesting. And thank you for the links, I am reading them right now! I am still new to the terminology.