Our partner

Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder message board, open discussion, and online support group.

Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby creative_nothing » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:05 pm

It seens a commonly held view on these forums(this and ASPD) that psycopaths resembles more overt narcissists.

This never seemed to be truth to me, and today I was reading this article.

http://www.academia.edu/6259086/The_dar ... _wellbeing

We tested the degree to which positive emotions are associated with the Dark Triad, using general underlying personality traits to structure this information. While the two Dark Triad scales were correlated, they were also significantly correlated with their respective measures of Psychopathy and Machiavellianism. Structural equation models indicated better fit if one split the Dark Triad into a better-fitting dark dyad of Psychopathy and Machiavellianism, and a separate narcissism measure. Latent positive mood and dark dyad constructs were produced, with personality traits being fitted to these constructs. Both models were essentially the same, though the SD3’s fitness indices were slightly better than those for the D12; combining both scales for indicators did not strengthen the fit of the model. Positive mood was particularly predicted by ES and E, whereas the dark dyad was predicted by low A, greater narcissism, and lower positive mood. Narcissism was particularly predicted by E, low A, and greater self-rated happiness. These findings reiterate narcissism’s complexity and expression in relatively positive and negative forms (Ackerman et al., 2011). Latent profile analyses revealed four patterns of trait expression, supporting relationships shown in the SEM. These profiles reflected groups of persons who were unhappy, persons in the normal range (i.e., within 0.5 of a standard deviation of the mean for all measures), and grandiose and vulnerable narcissists. Grandiose narcissists were higher in E, ES, satisfaction with life, and general happiness; vulnerable narcissists were lower in A and ES, and higher in psychopathy and Machiavellianism.

Agreblaness
Emotional Stability
Extroversion

Edit: Spelling.
Last edited by creative_nothing on Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dx. GAD
In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined
Thomas Szasz
creative_nothing
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 5138
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:46 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


ADVERTISEMENT

Re: Are Coverts More Psycopathic

Postby lolidk » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:16 pm

I don't know. Coverts seem to be really sensitive. At least the ones here do.
DX: NPD
lolidk
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2323
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:22 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby creative_nothing » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:24 pm

Coverts: Borderline like
Overts: Histrionic like

Who are more psychopathic among the four?
I mean, covert N, overt N, HPD or BPD?
Dx. GAD
In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined
Thomas Szasz
creative_nothing
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 5138
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:46 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby lolidk » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:28 pm

creative_nothing wrote:Coverts: Borderline like
Overts: Histrionic like

Who are more psychopathic among the four?
I mean, covert N, overt N, HPD or BPD?


That would depend upon the individual, imo.
DX: NPD
lolidk
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2323
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:22 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 2:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby NimplyDinply » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:30 pm

creative_nothing wrote:It seens a commonly held view on these forums(this and ASPD) that psycopaths resembles more overt narcissists.

This never seemed to be truth to me, and today I was reading this article.



Read about Masterson's "Closet Narcissist" or Kernberg's "thin-skinned narcissist". Among others. Coverts don't engage in antisocial behavior like regular NPD, ASPD or BPDs do. You can hear Kernberg briefly discuss this type in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeVMtZns5Pw

I think we need to define what a covert narcissist is, and what a psychopath is. A covert narcissist is a lot higher in introversion and neuroticism than classic narcissists. Not getting into the whole etiology here, but they tend to suppress/repress their narcissistic traits reflexively and automatically. It is not a conscious choice afaik.

Some people say it is a subtype of BPD, others AVPD, others SPD, and others NPD.

Classic narcissism is associated with factor 1 psychopathy, but weakly associated with factor 2, bpd and hpd factor 2 but weak with factor 1, and coverts are weaker in factor 1 than overts and factor 2 than bpd's or hpd's. There's plenty of research into this. Check out studies done on the VDT (Vulnerable Dark Triad) for example.
what a tangled web we unweave, when we practice to just be
User avatar
NimplyDinply
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2040
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:11 am
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby Artemiss » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:53 pm

NimplyDinply wrote:A covert narcissist is a lot higher in introversion and neuroticism than classic narcissists. Not getting into the whole etiology here, but they tend to suppress/repress their narcissistic traits reflexively and automatically. It is not a conscious choice afaik.

Exactly. I had to see a psychologist in my Boarding School... Image
I was 16 and now learned you can diagnose a PD only in adults.

Alright, to be fair, I played her somewhat... and pretended to be little miss perfect. Image Nonetheless she thought I would be an amazing heathy Non who is just waaaay to extrovert.
she said because I am really extrovert I wouldn't have any neurosis. That this is very good because I would let go of things a.s.a.p. without keeping negative stuff inside.

ie. if I hate something I say: I hate this!!! I won't put up with $#%^ but speak my mind.

ASPD/Psychopaths are way more manipulative. When you realize what is going on it is already too late.

FYI I do have ASPD tendencies, but I guess it's genetic since my Dad + grandfather have it too.
Image
Image
Just kidding, stay away. Image Seriously!
Artemiss
Consumer 5
Consumer 5
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 12:11 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 9:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby Truth too late » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:14 am

creative_nothing wrote:Coverts: Borderline like
Overts: Histrionic like

I like that comparison, but I agree it depends on the individual. Generally I think it is true.

Regarding psychopathy, I think overt/covert are about the same. Overts are less ashamed of implying they're entitled to your stuff. I think they look more "so what?" about it. Coverts seem more manipulative just because the way they (we) go about it is more resistant. We try not to "take," but do it anyway, and it looks more sinister I think. More like a hidden agenda compared to the overt.
I never seen you looking so bad my funky one / You tell me that your superfine mind has come undone (Steely Dan, Any Major Dude)
Truth too late
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 1892
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 10:01 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 1:18 am
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby BoardUser » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:30 am

I think it is a mistake to read personality traits as directly translating into behavior. The study was conducted on personality traits. No analysis was conducted on how these traits are linked to behavior.

IMO one way of looking at cNPD is grandiose narcissism + schizoid traits. People with cNPD might have underlying emotional similarities to borderlines or grandiose narcissists, but these are modulated by fear and dissociation.

Just take this as a thought experiment: what do you fear more, a psychopathic, machiavellian schizoid or a psychopathic, machiavellian non? Just looking at two personality traits in isolation does not give you the whole picture.

This post is not intended as an apologia for cNPD, I am sure it can be harmful sometimes. But just looking at traits in isolation has its limits. This sort of statistical model can be rigorous, but it is like using a magnifying glass to look at something large - you can only see part of what you are looking at.
So INTJ it hurts
BoardUser
Consumer 5
Consumer 5
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:06 am
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby MeAgain » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:32 am

I'm pretty sure I've been psychopathic; for all of 30 minutes! That was before I was taking anti depressives. For some reason, that I can only put down to brain chemistry, all of my depression and anxiety fell away and what was left was a very serene emptiness. I've read that there are four stages or phases of narcissism. But I can't remember where I read it. Does anyone know? Borderlines are close to psychopaths on the N spectrum.
30mg Citalopram SSRI Antidepressant
40mg Propranolol Beta Blocker

A mere imp of Satan
User avatar
MeAgain
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:29 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:18 am
Blog: View Blog (2)

Re: Are Coverts More Psychopathic?

Postby creative_nothing » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:53 am

NimplyDinply wrote:I think we need to define what a covert narcissist is, and what a psychopath is. A covert narcissist is a lot higher in introversion and neuroticism than classic narcissists. Not getting into the whole etiology here, but they tend to suppress/repress their narcissistic traits reflexively and automatically. It is not a conscious choice afaik.

Wouldnt a neurotic, hypervigilant narcissist be a way more dangerous and manipulative than an easy going one?
Dx. GAD
In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined
Thomas Szasz
creative_nothing
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 5138
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:46 pm
Local time: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:18 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to Narcissistic Personality Disorder Forum




  • Related articles
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests