are psychopaths

creative_nothing wrote:

Millon wrote:Disdain for shared standards of social living often leads to confusion between the narcissistic and antisocial personalities. Both exploit others to their own advantage. Narcissists, however, are passive in so doing and largely unaware of the relevance of manipulating others. Theirs is not the scheming, promise-breaking exploits of the anti-social. Instead, their self-centered convictions of entitlement lead them to believe that others simply owe them, whereas the antisocial is deliberately deceptive and ruthless.

I think that's a great description. But, I moved your bolded bit to indicate what I thought was significantly different about psychopathy. I thought one could only be scheming (premeditated) due to no empathy. Something more permanent compared to the N's reserving all empathy for self?

I can see how it appears the same to observers, as a spectrum of selfishness. But, it doesn't seem like the same coin to me, in terms of species (the equipment to work with, etc.). Something seems significantly different about it.

But, it doesn't seem like the same coin to me, in terms of species (the equipment to work with, etc.)

Well according to Millon, upbringing plays a role differentiating the two. The future ASPD was probrably neglected while the future NPD over indulged by parents, that is why they became passive self oriented, while the aspd has to develop strategies to get what he wants.

I bet many ASPD had only mother, not father.

creative_nothing wrote:

But, it doesn't seem like the same coin to me, in terms of species (the equipment to work with, etc.)

Well according to Millon, upbringing plays a role differentiating the two. The future ASPD was probrably neglected while the future NPD over indulged by parents, that is why they became passive self oriented, while the aspd has to develop strategies to get what he wants.

That could explain me. My grandmother spoiled me starting at around 6-7. (I think now she was a narcissist.). I've often thought that's where I got my grandiose sense of self. That's when I recall doing grandiose things (like trying to impress people with my ability to read my dad's James Bond books), and if it hadn't been for that, I would have been AsPD.

It seemed like my family over-compensated for something. It seems like they created a shallow sense of self that I wouldn't have had. Without it, I don't think I would have had the "platform" upon which to judge others, feel contempt (haughtiness) toward, to need their confirmation/reflection of myself. Something to protect in myself. Without it, I think I would have been entirely different in terms of predation, insensitivity.

I've never liked Millon much. At a high level I like the way he shows how different labels combine to create a multitude of sub-types (like @meagain sees). But, deeper than that, he doesn't grab me. However, I can see how what you said could apply to me.

creative_nothing wrote:

But, it doesn't seem like the same coin to me, in terms of species (the equipment to work with, etc.)

Well according to Millon, upbringing plays a role differentiating the two. The future ASPD was probrably neglected while the future NPD over indulged by parents, that is why they became passive self oriented, while the aspd has to develop strategies to get what he wants.

I bet many ASPD had only mother, not father.

I've heard many psychoanalysts say that many narcissists come from very traumatic backgrounds though. And a few people who've been diagnosed with NPD on these forums were abused as children. I think Violet is one of them, although she doesn't post here often.

I think you're onto something with your last sentence. My brother is ASPD/BPD and we came from a single-parent background.

BTW, why haven't you posted much lately? Sheesh.

I have a friend who thinks she is a psychopath. She has no official dx but wants someone to give her the Hare psychopathy test. She explained to me that antisocial PD used to be called psychopathic PD but then it was changed (I never heard of this). She objects to the ASPD label because it assumes the person (who is essentially a psychopath) is antisocial, but a psychopath could be be antisocial or prosocial. Psychopaths can tell the difference between right and wrong, but don't have a conscience per se, which means whether they decide to be antisocial or not is a choice.

Not having a conscience doesn't mean you're necessarily going to do bad things, as long as you know the difference between right and wrong (which is cognitive learning, rather than a conscience, which is shame or guilt-based). My friend, like many psychopaths, is always cheerful, doesn't worry about anything, and is never afraid. She is very likeable and outgoing. She doesn't understand why I would want to "heal" and wonders why I have so much guilt. She says guilt just makes people miserable and I should just accept what's done is done and move forward. I had to explain it was because of the presence of a conscience, but she can't fathom what that would feel like.

I think most psychopaths are likeable. They're upbeat and positive all the time. They don't care whether you like them or not. But they don't really have deep emotions the way Ns or Bs do. There are lots of people who are not criminals, don't deliberately exploit others, and have even done good things for others but still score high in psychopathy.

So I was wondering if it's possible psychopathy may be a personality type, rather than a disorder, while ASPD would be a disorder because the person chooses to act in ways that exploit or disrespect the rights of others.

My friend, if she is a psychopath, is not a criminal and volunteers for several causes so she would be one who is not ASPD, but right now there is no official diagnosis for psychopathy. But if it's a personality type or variation, rather than a disorder, than it wouldn't need to be a diagnosis anyway.

Someone scored Ferris Bueller from the movie on the Hare P-CL and he's almost a perfect psychopath. If anyone has seen this movie, remember how popular and likeable he was? Of course, Ferris Bueller was also conniving, a liar, and incredibly manipulative too, so he could fit ASPD as well.
http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/5911/fer ... nderstood/

Ladywith3cats wrote:Someone scored Ferris Bueller from the movie on the Hare P-CL and he's almost a perfect psychopath.

I think that's one of those things where you can get whatever you want. Assuming the character of someone in a movie and then presuming to take a psychopathy test for them? (Too much opportunity for projection.).

Why does your friend volunteer? What does she get out of it? It's possible she's not AsPD but simply neurotically hedonistic. Self-interested without the malignancy, shallow affect and emotions (but not pathologically disordered).

Truth too late wrote:

Ladywith3cats wrote:Someone scored Ferris Bueller from the movie on the Hare P-CL and he's almost a perfect psychopath.

I think that's one of those things where you can get whatever you want. Assuming the character of someone in a movie and then presuming to take a psychopathy test for them? (Too much opportunity for projection.).

Why does your friend volunteer? What does she get out of it? It's possible she's not AsPD but simply neurotically hedonistic. Self-interested without the malignancy, shallow affect and emotions (but not pathologically disordered).

She's involved in the Occupy movement (I wasn't aware this was still a thing) and other progressive political causes (I'm not sure which ones). I told her I didn't think she was a psychopath. She's not sure either, which is why she wants to take the Hare test.
She doesn't think I'm N either, just a run of the mill borderline, lol.

Psychopaths are narcissistic without meeting the specific criteria for a NPD diagnosis.
They are antisocial in the same way.
It seems as though this particular type of personality is just that: a personality type. It's neurological in origin; it refers to neurological networks and patterns of thinking which are presented outwardly with a reliable set of traits.

People with personality disorders, have personality disorders.
Psychopaths, are psychopaths.

it's really not hard, and it's not any more complicated than that. The confusion is terminology such as "sociopath" and "malignant narcissist" ...
These terms both refer to similar traits and dispositions, but they are more severe and more consistent with the general criteria for a PD.

There are more psychopaths with personality disorders than without, perhaps, but this may be open to contention. Perhaps psychopaths are simply more prone to developing a PD than neurotypical individuals. If you ask me, this seems like the most likely case.

Psychopaths are thought to have anatomical differences in the brain (reductions in circuitry resulting in less processing power, reductions in subcortical structures resulting in reduced limbic function, and reductions in cerebral cortex resulting in less executive function). These anatomical dysfunctions are perhaps more likely to produce conditions which are favorable for the development of personality disorders, particularly those which pertain to emotional dysregulation, attachment, empathy, fear processing, and impulsivity. In general though, what is reliable is that these anatomical dysfunctions do tend to repeatedly produce the same core arrangement of traits in the affected individuals.

joltaire wrote:Perhaps psychopaths are simply more prone to developing a PD than neurotypical individuals. If you ask me, this seems like the most likely case.

I think you're onto something. I have thought of AsPD/psychopathy as further on the scale. But, I wonder if it's not simply an empty canvas from which PDs develop. I.e., pwNPD had that empty canvas as a result of the trauma/abuse, then added a fake personality on top in order to function in what was otherwise a normal world (not continued trauma/abuse). That fits my impression that I would have been psychopathic if it hadn't been for my grandmother at 6-7 spoiling me. I think she created my personality. (I remember people treated me odd then, like I was recovering from something. There was a "wait and see" attitude.).

But, like you said, it's been demonstrated(?) psychopaths have an anatomical (physiological?) difference in their brain? That's why I thought it was not the same thing. That they lacked a feature necessary to love one self.

That's what seems different to me. I felt like I was (am, can be) in love with myself. Or, that I should be. It wasn't affectless. It wasn't a cold cognition that nothing matters than the rules I choose to live by, and I can craft them to suit me. It was an addiction. It was a large sense of myself. Like I was in love with someone I could be, not me. It was love and hate. (It wasn't cool, affectless rationality -- even though I fancied myself being seen as such. Inside it wasn't.).

Doesn't Hare (and a few other researchers) propose a crude separation between the words sociopathy and psychopathy? I mean, I'm not sure I completely understand how it ought to be categorized, but wouldn't the general idea be that Psychopathy is related to nature (Ventromedial prefrontal cortex), whereas Sociopathy is more related to nurture (predisposition + trauma)? Wouldn't it be aligned with the notion that a pwNPD overwrites empathy and desensitises him/herself towards a bunch of things (because of a myriad of reasons), in contrast to a bona fide psychopath that simply doesn't have the neurobiological makeup to operate using the framework of empathy in the first place?

Because if that's the case, would it make sense to call most NPD types "sociopaths", and those at the seeming extreme of AsPD and malignant narcissism (that theoretically experienced no series of events and/or environmental variables that shaped them to be that way) "psychopaths"?