Covert/Vulnerable/Compensatory Narcissism - What do I do?

Bernas24 wrote:see, the OCD is working you up again. like many people here you seem to be under the assumption that empathy is feeling the exact same thing that some random stranger on the street is feeling.

Yup.

this is not the case at all. firstly. it's absolutely NORMAL for people to not empathize with strangers. in fact, i'd say it's fairly abnormal to do otherwise.

Yup.

secondly, empathy isn't feeling what the other person is feeling. empathy is feeling some level of concern for them. for instance, if someone I know is sad because a loved one died, I'm obviously not going to feel his level of sorrow, but i still consciously understand why they are sad, because I can relate to that situation. also, different people display different spectrum of emotions. some are just naturally more empathetic than others.

Yup, exactly. Now if I'm a good friend of yours and I tell you my baby was kidnapped, raped and murdered and I'm bawling my eyes out and you don't feel a thing, then maybe you can say you lack empathy.

now, you do make a good point. the thing about OCD is that you can often too consciously aware/hypervigilant of your emotions, so when you actually experience them they can be downplayed. i believe this is true in my experience at least.

Can relate here, and I've been diagnosed with OCD too.

This "False Self" that is being discussed here is called the "ego ideal". Parental and societal introjects in your superego telling you you have to do this or be that. So if society is telling you,you have to not have a lisp to be a person worth engaging in or to be likeable, it wouldn't be surprising that you may start to believe it.

"Compensatory narcissism" is called compensation in psychology and it is something that we're all prone to. It does not make you a narcissist.

Now my question is, if someone didn't have empathy, why would they be crying because they think they don't? If you lack empathy, why do you care?

Now dan I know your OCD may tell you, "I'm the exception". NOPE. YOU ARE NOT.

No one can dx you here, but I see an OCD and anxiety problem here more than I see a problem with any type of narcissism.

Did you know when you're anxious, you're more suggestible and more likely to believe what you read?

Stay away from Google when you're anxious. Please.

NimplyDinply wrote:Yup, exactly. Now if I'm a good friend of yours and I tell you my baby was kidnapped, raped and murdered and I'm bawling my eyes out and you don't feel a thing, then maybe you can say you lack empathy.

I can safely say that's not hyperbole. Pre-awareness I would have felt anxious for being in the position of having to have this moment with you.

Post-awareness, I know I wouldn't feel anything, it wouldn't surprise me. But, I would know what you'd like to hear and I would be able to produce something much more genuine than what I'd rattle off in my anxiety at finding myself having to interact with you when I wasn't self-aware.

I look at it like: I'm strong. I had to be to live this way for so long. Now that I know what's wrong with me, I can be strong in different ways, like engaging with the other person instead of trying to make what's happening fit my "narrative." It feels antisocial to "fake it" so cooly. But, it doesn't feel fake. There is a genuine human connection as a result, like I'd always wanted to have.

I don't know if I don't have empathy, or I don't know how to have it -- and now I'm having it.

Thanks for the replies again! It seems like my Pure OCD is becoming a mini theme. And I can fully see why that would be the case. Pure OCD is a terrible affliction which has made me consider myself a homosexual, a pedophile, a psychopath, a sociopath in addition to making me feel like I am going to hell when I am not even religious. I have even told myself like World War 3 is about to begin and had panic attacks about not breathing properly and telling myself there might have been a terrorist chemical weapon attack.

All ridiculous notions that seem desperately real at the time. In fact many continue to linger. But they are born through fear and are maintained through fear.

However, I still think that my personality is disordered. And compensatory narcissism is a root cause.

Now Bernas 24 you write

it's absolutely NORMAL for people to not empathize with strangers. in fact, i'd say it's fairly abnormal to do otherwise.

I completely agree with this. People would be barely able to function if they felt empathy for every stranger they met in the street.

But your second point:

secondly, empathy isn't feeling what the other person is feeling

Actually it is. But I never realized this.

There are two types of empathy: emotional/affective and cognitive. The empathy you discuss:

i still consciously understand why they are sad, because I can relate to that situation

is cognitive.
That is cognitive empathy. You are able to understand what they are feeling because you can relate to their situation. You don't exactly feel the same emotion they are going through but you feel concern because you can relate to their feelings.

But there is a level of empathy where you can share a persons grief or pain or sadness and feel it yourself.
Now I am not saying you don't have empathy but maybe we have had to be so strong for so long that we have lost our ability to feel it. At least you say you were very sensitive in childhood. I really can't answer that question because I lack solid memories. But I don't want to say what is relevant to me is relevant to you because you are a different person with different emotions, feelings, issues etc.

I am only a beginner at learning this empathy business so don't take everything I say for serious.

Now NimplyDinply: It horrifies me the very thought of that happening to a baby but I still feel a tinge of emptiness.

I just don't know where empathy is felt. Is it in the stomach, is it in the mind, does it race through your body?
I was a family funeral recently and I felt nothing all day. The relative was old and it was expected so I felt justified into why I was not feeling anything.
But when I discovered they were very ill and dying I didn't feel sadness. Maybe its because I was not very close to them. But people in my family who were very close to this relative were very upset at the funeral and I could look at them and still feel nothing but know exactly what to say to them.

The thing with me where I differ to truth to late is that I know exactly what to say naturally. My body language is also natural. But it is all without feeling I think. I just know how to be show empathy on my face and in my language.

It is very confusing this whole empathy business.

If anybody has any ideas feel free to add. I'm going to reply in another post to tackle other issues raised. Thanks again!

dan2015 wrote:The thing with me where I differ to truth to late is that I know exactly what to say naturally.

I think I know what I feel and it's not empathy. I think what I felt in a circumstance where empathy is considered normal was discomfort with the situation. It was a narcissistic response about me, not the other person.

This is an example of why I identified with HPD. I knew something was wrong and I felt it was an attention thing. Like, they want attention from me. I imagined it was an HPD trait causing me to rush through it, trying to talk around it, often feeling embarrassed that I said the wrong thing. Like, a Lucille Ball moment (clumsy me, can't do anything right -- when I know I can talk to people perfectly well! Why am I doing this? I'm acting up some how.).

Since realizing what goes on with me, I haven't been feeling empathy in those cases. It scared me the first time it happened. I didn't bubble up like I normally do. It was just nothing and I freaked out. Since then, I've gotten comfortable with it. I can handle it like you describe.

I'm just realizing how far empathy goes. I thought it was just little stuff.

I think the nervous reaction comes from my emotions being on the surface. I was always quick to lose it. I could have a battle of wills. But, if I talked about anything emotional, I'd likely cry. If the other person is likely to cry, then I'd certainly have done it.

I was (apparently not as much now) vulnerable type. Huge difference between the interior and exterior. So, I think what I thought was empathy was panic.

oh god. not this affective/cognitive empathy bullchit again. i hate this is another running theme here.

you're discussing semantics here. cognitive empathy doesn't involve actual emotion processing. it's simply about one's ability to RECOGNIZE other people's emotions. this distinction is used for people with asperger's for instance, who don't lack empathy (meaning, they have concern for others) but have difficulty understanding them - for instance, they sometimes may have trouble distinguishing people crying of happiness vs people crying of sadness.

it's the opposite for psychopaths. they are able to recognize why someone would be sad for instance, but can't actually be bothered to care, and might even use this to their advantage.

in regards to you feeling empty, high levels of anxiety are known to cause emotional detachment. this of course is specially true in OCD, and also gets back to one being too consciously aware of them.

I actually read something about this in what I would consider a bullschit spirituality book the other day. i can't exactly recall what, but it said something along these lines -- that one being too consciously aware of their emotions impairs its functioning. it was a funny thing actually. I picked up the book and that was the first sentence I came across. funny thing eh?

Nimply Dinply:: Thank you for your reply's on this forum but I have a few points to raise.

You say that Compensatory Narcissism is something we are all prone to. I agree with this but not when it becomes pathological and makes your life and relationships dysfunctional.

Also Compensatory Narcissism is known in many circles to be a distinct form of NPD. The whole concept of NPD whether overtly or covertly is that people are compensating for their hidden or perceived worries, fears and anxieties.
I think the difference between the Overts and the coverts and I may be wrong here is that coverts actually feel the anxiety and dread of their insecurities on a more conscious level.

Your second point:

Now my question is, if someone didn't have empathy, why would they be crying because they think they don't? If you lack empathy, why do you care?

This is a good point and due to finding comfort and solace in it I don't seek to obsess about it. i could easily search for a negative answer but it will not help me in the slightest.
I already read whatever material I can find about this condition and it is making me ill but I fear I am to far into it and I need to seek answers.

I want to show more why I think I am a Narcissist.

Bernas 24 One again I completely relate with you. I have a deep, entrenched complex about my height as well and am extremely self conscious.
Every man I walk past in the street I compare our heights. If I am taller than them which is rare, I find satisfaction and a sense of joy. If I am not which is the majority of the time I try walk past them as confident as I can all the while feeling vulnerable, inadequate and a sense of dread.

This is another way I think my narcissism shows itself. I am reducing people to objects. It is not only men as I have previously mentioned. When I walk past a female I either think they are thinking "hes fit" or "hes handsome" or on a bad day "eww he is ugly".
In a way I think because I am continually inside my own head, always worrying, obsessed with thoughts and feelings I consider everybody the same. I assume everyone is making judgements and observations about me when I walk past.
Maybe it is because I do the same about them.
So yeah when compensation interferes with normal every day things like walking down the street I think that it does become a form of disorder. And I think it is NPD. The thing is I hate it. I constantly tell my mind to shut up and I wish I could turn it off. But my mind seems dependent on it. And maybe I am to.

Where we differ is that whereas I am on the whole covert in my narcissism I still take overt measures. For example I am very vain. I am obsessed with looking in mirrors and since 18 have bought skin care products etc. All this stems from deep rooted anxieties that I need to look good. And if I don't I am plagued by anxiety. I go through the day looking in car windows, shop windows at my reflection. etc.
The sad thing is that whereas a few years ago I did look good now I am suffering from acne and hair loss due to stress and look quite bad. I actually avoid going out because I cannot tolerate the thought I am ugly. But If I do a lot of the time I still have thoughts in my head saying I am good looking etc when I walk past a girl even though I look like a druggie.

I even went through a year where I changed my accent, clothes and attitudes to a more sophisticated style to compensate for my working class background. It was pathetic. But due to my anxieties at the time this is what I felt would make me more confident, more assured. And it was classic compensation narcissism. I was actually trying to act posh, act like I was better than everyone. It was self destructive.

But there you go another case of my narcissism.

Another thing is maybe if I didn't have a lisp I would be an overt narcissist. I do doubt it because I consider other people to much but my lisp has made me very avoidant since my teens in social situations unless i'm drinking then i can be the life of the party.

Maybe my lisp is the cause of my narcissism and im trying to compensate for it. But If I didn't have the lisp would I be over confident and loud and self obsessed and not be plagued with all this worry. I don't know.

dan2015 wrote:Since leaving my teens behind I have always known I have dysfunctional behaviors/ thoughts and feelings. Identifying why I felt the way I did became a kind of crusade. I had to know what was wrong with me. I cannot aim to put my life in words but I will give a very brief context and my issues.

Behind a context of being diagnosed with OCD, having anxiety and avoidance issues, a Mother and Step Father that never showed me love or attention, having a lisp and living in a working class rough area I had the other side of the coin; good looks and intelligence. When I was in my teens I was very popular with girls and I was always top of the class in school.

However as my life progressed I realized I have always felt empty, struggled with interpersonal relationships and avoided environments particularly where I have to talk due to my lisp. This may just seem like a kid with low confidence (I'm in my early twenties now). However, I have always felt special in a way. When I walk into a room I become very nervous because I think everyone is looking at me. I picture people thinking and saying 'He's gorgeous', 'He's pretty fit'. I immediately try to reject and get rid of these thoughts. I know it is egotistical but my mind continues to do it. I also fantasize about success particularly about being an actor and having the fame, fortune and girls that comes with it. I also tell myself I can do anything and be anything. Even though I am a nervous wreck that suffers from anxiety and nerves excessively. I also don't have good looks anymore even though I tell myself I do. I also continuously think and worry about myself, other people are rarely part of my thoughts. It is all me, me, me. I could go on longer with my narcissistic symptoms but Im sure you are getting a gist of it.

I basically think like a narcissist but don't act like one. This is why I relate to the subtypes Covert/Vulnerable/ Compensatory Narcissism, call it what you will. After realizing this my life has turned to hell. I can't picture leading a life that for example is defined by having no empathy. Although my parents were rubbish I do have loving family members. I have a conscience. I have never seeked to do evil and I act very moral. This isn't a case of deciding whether to do good. It seems instinctive. Always compelled. I have to be honest I feel suicidal. When I read people with Overt Narcissism talk about how they don't care I feel very alienated. I feel the exact opposite. I have been stressed for weeks, I can barely function. My mind is telling me that I don't deserve to live. I can't bear the thought that I don't love my family members and my life is a big facade.

To be honest I just don't understand the condition entirely. I don't want to die, I really don't. But my life has been turned upside down. I keep crying constantly. How can it be that somebody who feels guilt, remorse and feels like they have a conscience be a Narcissist?

The whole part about the obsessive thoughts of 'i look good' 'i'm special' i'm interesting ' etc while in public is pretty much at least 70 percent of what runs through my head when I'm in public. Don't think I have OCD but prone to obsessive thoughts. I thinkthat you should consider that this could just be the OCD talking. NOt necessarily,but could be.

YOu do seem to ruminate as well, which could just be anxiety..Then again these could just fit into a disorder, i dunno.

I think mindfunk was correct when he said it is a way of easing anxiety about yourself and low self esteem. If you cushion it with 'I'm awesome' it makes dealing with others bearable. Of course, I thought this weird relationship between overinflated self esteem and need for reassurance was sort of textbook for NPD. *shrugs*

Anyway, I dunno I can't say you do- I can say you're self obsessed though, and I can also say welcome to the club

-- Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:13 am --

Bernas24 wrote:oh god. not this affective/cognitive empathy bullchit again. i hate this is another running theme here.

you're discussing semantics here. cognitive empathy doesn't involve actual emotion processing. it's simply about one's ability to RECOGNIZE other people's emotions. this distinction is used for people with asperger's for instance, who don't lack empathy (meaning, they have concern for others) but have difficulty understanding them - for instance, they sometimes may have trouble distinguishing people crying of happiness vs people crying of sadness.

it's the opposite for psychopaths. they are able to recognize why someone would be sad for instance, but can't actually be bothered to care, and might even use this to their advantage.

in regards to you feeling empty, high levels of anxiety are known to cause emotional detachment. this of course is specially true in OCD, and also gets back to one being too consciously aware of them.

I actually read something about this in what I would consider a bullschit spirituality book the other day. i can't exactly recall what, but it said something along these lines -- that one being too consciously aware of their emotions impairs its functioning. it was a funny thing actually. I picked up the book and that was the first sentence I came across. funny thing eh?

I am quoting this cuz I think it makes a good distinction...and is really an issue I feel is springing up frequently- the difference between not experiencing emotion and having trouble deciphering or dealing with emotion. Maybe the two become very hard to tell the difference between....

Hey Dan, I've read the entire topic and i noticed that i could relate to almost everything you wrote in your posts here.
I've been on this forum for a year now. Mostly on the Body dysmorphic disorder section and a bit on the Social phobia and Avpd sections, because that's what i've been diagnosed with 2 years ago.
I always focused on BDD because i think i wanted to see that as my main problem and it's a nice distraction from real life i guess.
I can now see it's only a symptom of my deep rooted feelings of inferiority (BDD = 'just' believing that you're ugly -> gives massive anxiety/self-consciousness -> obsession with camouflaging your (perceived) appearance related flaws, constantly having to check mirrors, compulsively 'fixing' yourself in front of the mirror or any reflective surface available.

I always felt a sense that those disorders (avoidant personality disorder and body dysmorphic disorder) didn't comprise my whole thinking processes. A lot of it does of course, but there is another side of me that i successfully keep hidden from almost everyone i know. I guess you know what i'm referring too.

Classical BDD is the extreme fear of being ugly. This is also the way i've always described my fears to psychologists and psychiatrists. (Like i have no ego that bugged me and have (only) constant painful feelings of inferiority. Nothing else. The feelings of worthlessness are always there though, but my brain found ways to numb them, temporarily, by doing compulsions. They always come back.) But i knew this was not and never been the real issue. It's partially true that i fear being ugly, but that's not really the main thing that's on my mind when i'm around people because i know that i don't look disgustingly ugly.
Avpd is caused by an extreme fear of not being accepted or liked by other people. This is also partially the case for me, because being liked, for me, is a part of getting the kind of admiration i need.
I fear not being admired or being average. In looks as well as in behavior.
Nobody sees this though because i never show it in my behavior. I act friendly, accepting and empathetic towards the people i want to get loved and admired by. (I want to get liked as well, but that's not good enough). I ignore the rest. Their opinion doesn't matter to me.

I've read somewhere that the main difference between Avpd and Npd is that Avpd'ers fear not being accepted and Npd'ers fear not being admired. I guess i fear both.

It started out by being desperate to get accepted by my peers, but i lacked the skills and 'features' i guess, so it didn't work. I can see that now, but i interpreted it as that i didn't have any worth. I couldn't deal with those feelings.
The only option i felt i had was to transform in whatever it was that people liked, so i got obsessed by modifying my behavior and my appearance, always having to hide my true self, being hyper vigilant of my behavior, constantly monitoring every move i made in front of people while not allowing myself to show the social anxiety and constant fear of failure i felt because that would come across as weak and unattractive. Hiding, acting and resting is all i did from then on.
This coping mechanism worked very well to get the attention that i needed, i got admired, but it didn't solve anything in the long run, because nobody ever saw the real me after i was 13 anymore, so it was my facade that got liked and admired, while i got more and more detached from my true self.

The obsession was draining but i didn't know any other way to feel "good" as i got addicted to the feeling of my facade getting accepted/admired. It also gave me negative feelings and bitterness towards humanity in general. "Ah, so NOW you like me, huh?". "NOW i'm good enough?".
So i ended up with a pseudo sense of worth, which was better than the alternative at that time, but it came with high costs.
The real me never got accepted so the fear that people could see through my act terrified me. I had to be extremely good in what i did, fighting my true self to the point i don't feel like i can connect to it anymore now 10 years later. (i'm 23 years old).

I have no sense of self (i think). I don't know what that feels like.

As far as empathy goes, i get praised a lot for my ability to empathize. People love to get understood by a young guy. But i'm not sure anymore. It's easy for me to put myself in somebody else's shoes, but do i really care about their pain like other people do or do i just use it as a tool to get people to accept, admire and keep them with me?

I have a very select group of people in my life that i really care about. But just as you, i'm worried, because apparently people like me aren't able to love people like normal people do if i can be labeled with this disorder, which i'm trying to find out. That idea really worries me.
I mentioned it in group therapy once 3 weeks ago (at my last day there), but they all thought it was ridiculous, because my behavior didn't match with what they believed to be narcissism is, so i didn't really elaborate on it. They ended up giving me a lot of compliments.
I was glad that my facade worked so well that they even didn't believe me when i carefully mentioned my (believed) selfishness. To be honest it only strengthened my idea that most people in general are not very insightful, blind, and don't want to see the truth.
But it also makes me doubt my own mind. "What is wrong with me? In what category of Pd's do i fall? Am i overthinking everything? Are 'normal' people more insightful then i think?" are very recurring thoughts.
I'm sure i'm not a full blown Npd'er, because i have a conscience. Cheating on my girlfriend for example would give me so much guilt that i probably wouldn't be able to function until i would confess. That's good right? Does this exclude me from Npd?
My conscience prevents me to hurt the people that i love, which are only a few. I really couldn't care less about the rest.
But then i wonder, do other 'normal' people really care about people they don't even know or are they just faking like they're all altruistic and denying their selfishness because that's what's society considers as good?

I feel like i'm rambling. Maybe i should start my own topic instead of writing my experience on yours? I felt the urge to write here, so i did.

Did this help/can you relate in any way?

Yeah you're really reminding me of me, OP....I have throughout my life, come on this website thinking I HAVE THIS I HAVE THAT MUST KNOW! It's just an obsessive anxious thought (which I can be prone to ). It is important to note that you can very easily convince yourself of something especially if it's a coping mechanism or seems to mirror another trait.

I think something to focus on is that you seem to really care about your supposed selfishness. I think your selfishness is probably a mechanism to make you feel better and you don't actually sincerely only care about yourself Sometimes the difference is so subtle that it can be hard to see , especially from the view point of the person with the issue.

It all gets really confusing when you get into the realm of being unable to label your emotions or really understand them or function with them at all. Certain things can easily look like others..Like you do feel concern,but it is true concern? it doesn't seem that deep- what does it mean? Etc. Feelings come and flood in and you just can't place them or make sense of it.

I would just take a very deep breath and relax. Whatever it is- the labeling of it is probably something you can't do yourself...So you at least know you have this way of coping- what are you going to do about it is the questioin? You seem to want to change it?

I do think overall you appear very obsessive and worked up. Deep breath.

JPKAS wrote:I am quoting this cuz I think it makes a good distinction...and is really an issue I feel is springing up frequently- the difference between not experiencing emotion and having trouble deciphering or dealing with emotion. Maybe the two become very hard to tell the difference between....

I think I caused this tangent about empathy. I feel like the intensity of my emotions (something unresolved from childhood?) interfered with my ability to respond to what I knew were instances where empathy.

I think it's a matter of perspective. To the person needing empathy, my response would appear to be unfeeling if not insensitive. In my mind, I was avoiding the topic (sometimes with such motivation that I could say the wrong thing). I focused on my need, not the other person's. That sounds like "lack of empathy."

But, if empathy is nothing more than recognizing the feeling in another, then I'm learning how to be better at responding to the episodes I always recognized. (I think most people would call this not as genuine as actual empathetic interaction. But, maybe it's a learned behavior, and I'm just learning later.).

However, that works only for what I'd call small things (someone relating how they had to put their dog down yesterday, or got scammed out of a fortune).

I'm still trying to process how empathetic I am toward emotions I cause in others. I'm not sure I see the hurt I can cause someone. Or, when I caused it, I didn't care. I felt it was deserved. It didn't make me nervous. It made me think they should have learned a lesson.

That seems different. Psychopathic. Choosing not to recognize the emotion? (I'm dedicated to recognizing it now. I don't think I'm psychopathic. but, I think the strong emotions which prevented me from engaging people empathicly were the same emotions that caused me to hurt people in very specific, repeating ways.