Any idea of the causes of your narcissistic traits?

I'm not entirely sure.

I suspect it began very early on... my mother abandoned me at birth. My father was overwhelmed and not very present (guess he mentally checked out sometimes). There was a sense I was too much work, maybe even unwanted. I got passed around a lot.

I spent 5 years of my childhood not allowed out, except to go to school. I wasn't permitted contact with other children.

Praise was an unheard of thing for me growing up, it didn't matter what I did. I could get straight As for a year without any acknowledgement. I could be kicked out of school without any real reaction. It was almost like I was invisible a majority of the time. I would receive beating for random unpredictable things, I would say they were truly unjustified. I lived in fear of adults. I wasn't clear on what did or did not constitute a beating. I lived in a constant state if heightened alertness/anxiety. I tried to be flawless in my behaviour in order to be left alone or at least not humiliated.

Since I did not have much human contact at home, no real conversations of any kind, I struggled making friends or getting along with people at school. My solution was to remain largely mute, since that is what I was used to and what was expected of me at home. We never did anything, so I had a very limited experience of most any kind of interacting. I talked so little the muscles around my mouth were weak. Talking was hard and I didn't feel I had anything to contribute.

I was also raised in extreme poverty, things like milk and meat were luxuries and treats. I was aware that I was deprived compared to others. I didn't really have any reaction about it, I guess I somehow believed it's what we deserved, we were not as good or intelligent as other people, that's just how things were, period. I was emotionally shut down by the time I was 7 probably. Being too reactive meant you were a target or might get harmed. I tried not to care about anything at all, life was gray, full of disappointments.

Those feelings of inferiority and deprivation remain with me today. Although faaar less severe than the feeling used to be. If any feeling came out at all, it was often anger. I was angry at the world. I was very unhappy. I lived with a lot of shame about my circumstances. I knew I had not led the life others had, that I'd grown an impregnable shell. I wasn't able to be as free-spirited, relaxed, able to easily connect with others, the way other people could. I didn't have enough experience of this. I spent too much of my formative years afraid for my safety.

I got through the misery fantasising about receiving attention, being praised, having all the things I didn't have but wanted... I guess this is all textbook stuff. I only really stopped that when I became in control of my own life and left home for school.

However, lots of other people grew up this way, and turns them into someone especially well adjusted compared to the average, because the deprivation they experienced made them throw themselves into becoming the opposite.

What is the fine line of difference that makes one individual go one way, and others the opposite? I'm talking about open sympathetic people, versus shut down aloof people.

Has knowledge of the causes of your traits helped you? Did it make you avoid the programmed reactions you'd lived with? Did it help you make sense of things? I'm trying to figure this all out... comments, thoughts, analyses, whatever you want to contribute are very welcome.

Soni wrote:Has knowledge of the causes of your traits helped you? Did it make you avoid the programmed reactions you'd lived with? Did it help you make sense of things?

For me it's been bittersweet.

1. Understanding what I do has been a tremendous relief. It's like walking out of the carnival "House of Mirrors." Things are quiet and calm by comparison. I don't know why, but I think it would have been sad if I had had a heart attack and passed away while still in my delusion, tilting at windmills.

However, its disheartening to realize the vast percentage of my life spent in that state. If I saw it then as I do now, I believe things would have been much better. It's hard to look back on those sisyphusic decades, the partial life. I think I know how someone who spends 30 years in jail feels. I feel like I institutionalized my own life.

2. It's a relief to know how my traits affect others. I take that seriously and catch myself before I get too far into reactions or my inner "narrative."

However, that complicates getting close to people. To have a true friendship it feels like I'd have to disclose what I know about myself, why my life has been odd. I don't think most people would be accepting. It's pretty close to "Three Faces of Eve" stuff.

3. I feel whole after seeing my false self as clearly as I do. It's not an unseen roommate anymore. Yet, it's familiar like one.

However, I subscribe to Sam Vaknin's belief that there's nothing left of an N's true self. Maybe a memory, but no functioning identity. That leads to anxiety (sometimes panic) when I realize it's just me and the false self. Me is my conscience (the part of me who always knew something was wrong). The false self is who's been "outed" and whose coping techniques don't work anymore, who can't choose to go back to the old ways even if it would be more comfortable.

It's not like the problem vanishes into thin air after you recognize it. But, it's still better than living in a delusion, being a problem to others without knowing it, etc. I think the hardest thing are those panicked moments when it hits me, like "oh no, this is me." I kind of go into a disassociate state and feel anxious like I want to go back to how it was. I just repeat in my mind that this is me, and the positives of knowing what I do, the reality that there's nothing to go back to.

I felt abandoned in my first school by my mother. She knew I was having problems. If she'd cared more, she'd have taken me out of that school! I was very isolated and bullied by the other 5 year olds. They were more working class than me and tougher. I was a shy boy who chased butterflies. One of my bullies was a girl who would sit on top of me on the playing field whilst the other kids played around us. I swear she was in love with me. I idolise women, by the way. I was born on the summer solstice. Putting my birthday at the end of the school year. Therefore, I was always the youngest in my class; sometimes by up to 9 months. A big deal when you're only 5yo.

The bullying continued all the way though my youth and early adulthood. I developed a thin and polished suit of armour by the time I was 7yo. Everyone seemed to have it in for me. Teachers and other adults included. It must have been something about me, I suppose!

My emotionally dysfunctional father started on me about the age of 9. Occasional physical attacks (he caused me to black out on one occasion) and constant belittlement. I was very anxious throughout my childhood.

An excerpt from my Feb 1971 school report reads: Kevin is gradually realising that he is a member of his class, as well as an individual and becoming more involved with his school mates. He is less dreamy and withdrawn.

The above is eerily similar to my own experience.

I'm not entirely clear on the true self versus the false self idea... what is the definition a true self? Chore belief systems? Programmed reflexive instinctual responses? Adherence to a doctrine like religion?

I believe perhaps a true self is a malleable thing, designed to learn and adapt... and it will become whatever you want it to become. I believe we're in control of the journey, for the most part.

I suspect I have a different conceptualisation of it than has been described here...?

Soni wrote:I'm not entirely clear on the true self versus the false self idea... what is the definition a true self?

I don't know if there's an agreed upon definition. See True self and false self. I use the term true self to signify the opposite of the over-compensating false self. The "what could have been." "What palsied due to disuse." I'm not academic about it. It's just the way I see myself. Behaviors I let take control because the alternative was apparently worse.

I believe my NPD stems from the fact that I never ever belonged to anyone. I was just looking at my ex-girlfriends photo with her family.

And something comes up in me, some very very very old feeling of belonging. I grew up basically between two households. Every first week, I lived with my (narcissistic / psycho) father,in a flat, just he and me, and occasionally his "spouses", and every second week, I lived with my mom, her second husband, and my brother.

That was, emotionally, two different worlds. And I grew up in a vacuum. An emotional vacuum.

I looked at this pic of my ex, and her brother, and I think the small child in me sensed that this is what is missing from me. I am a nobody. I don't belong and never belonged.

What else could I do than creating a false self. A false self is still better than a no self.

Children need a mirror, a parent who the can "draw" their personality upon. If that parent is emotionally absent, or have disorganized attachment, or if the child is confused about his primary attachment figure (very important thing), than eventually, a child will fail to build a coherent self.

My mother had certain morals, my father had a different. They never really consulted with each other about me. I lacked coherent guidance. Of course, no child has perfectly coherent and consequent parents, but I think, this "freedom" / neglect left me with a "space" to develop myself.

Now, as I look at my ex's photos of her, her mother and brother, I imagine that, the are a family, and they of course belong to each other and never ever questioned that. Why would they?

But me, I grew up between two families, and never took responsibility for that. I just kind of hanging in the air.

So I think it is all about attachment. Without attachment and consistent parents (not perfect, but emotionally consistent parents), you are just hanging in the air, not being able to relate, not being able to form a sense of self, and not being able to sense time.

That's a very sad state of affairs. We can only however work with what we're handed and do the best we can with it. I'm sure you've come a long way since then... maybe you can even progress farther than those who had that sense of belonging, because you have experience of what the other side of the coin looks like?

For myself, I've just realised the person I was told to look up to from childhood, and modeled myself upon, was the biggest narcissist I've ever come into personal contact with... down to harvesting large funds from various people, targeting the vulnerable and well off, massive smear campaigns ruining people professionally and personally, using sexuality and money to coerce people, believing themselves to be a person with "a great and distinguished destiny, a leader"... I think you get the picture. It couldn't have been more textbook.

I could see something was off even as a child, and was at times even disgusted by the stories I was exposed to, and I tried to be different, yet still some of it must have rubbed off... particularly the entitlement, and wanting special treatment, and the pathological self absorption. I only hope new found awareness does not result in my fate as a textbook with a capital N rather than the small n I might already have been.

Sometimes maybe things are stacked against you so you can work through them, and come out the other side eventually, armed with a practical working idea of how to defeat obstacles?

I also had role models, but they were famous people, like Eminem. I think all I did in childhood was fantasizing about how famous and successful I will get. No wonder I became self-absorbed.

I should have spend that time creating connections with people. But I guess I was already too weak and underdeveloped to do that.

This fantasizing made me feel strong, which we know is the fuel to narcissism.

I have had very abusive childhood, and when I see children from Africa, Afganistan and countries like India, I don't even need to tell anyone how bad the livivng conditions are as children are dying from hunger. Many of these children do not have NPD.