Shame or Shameless?

I appreciate the humor. I'm stronger than I was a few days ago -- not ready to dart at the slightest sound of a snapping twig now.

Livinginmyhead posted an article: Refining the Construct of Narcissistic Personality
Disorder: Diagnostic Criteria and Subtypes

on a different thread. it lists 30 criteria that could lead to a diagnosis of NPD according to the DSM and according to their z-score based analysis of discriminating factors.

It's interesting that a word search of that pdf file did not find the word "shame". Fascinating how a dominant emotional experience doesn't enter into any of the 30 factors of diagnosis.

Isn't that weird?

It IS interesting - I hadn't noticed.

I also went back and looked at my own list from when I first started this journey. Shame isn't on it either. My assumption is that shame is not understood to be a core motivator by the individual until they learn something about NPD and can attach a label to the unexplained feelings of guilt and remorse that never feel exactly like guilt and remorse - but more like 'I'm sorry I got caught'.

This is the list I'd generated before I'd dug in on these topics... This was like my day 2 - WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING time, where I was trying to identify my attitudes and behaviors and put everything into words for the first time ever... There's more stuff I'd add now that I better understand what's going on, but this was the beginning...

---

What comes to mind when I consider who I am inside right now:

• I hide!
• I avoid!
• I lie!
• I cheat!
• I steal!
• I exaggerate!
• I manipulate and control!
• I do a lot of things that create drama and draw attention to myself
• I am COMPLETELY SELFISH!!!
• I am my own worst critic and harshest judge
• I have a hard line perfectionist streak
• I want to be in charge – anything else feels beneath me
• I’m too good for most jobs, most companies, and most other people
• The entire world MUST revolve around me – or I get jealous
• If I get jealous of someone I often make them a target of retribution (or dream of it)
• I fantasize about being in charge – of having the world beneath my boot
• I CANNOT take criticism – I usually lash out in response
• I constantly blame everyone else around me for my problems
• I’ve always been entitled – like I’m special and unique, and the world just owes it to me!
• I have absolutely NO integrity whatsoever
• I do NOT respect peoples boundaries
• I value someone until they ‘wrong’ me and then I lash out
• I’ve even gone so far as to destroy someone else’s career
• I have terrible impulse control
• I have problems with food and weight gain
• I have NO friends to speak of
• I usually have just one ‘anchor’ person that I rely on for all social interaction
• I have no real sense of empathy
• People really aren’t people to me
• I don’t understand emotions
• I see the worst in everyone
• I expect the worst from everyone
• I OBSESS over my perceived mistakes YEARS after they’ve occurred
• I focus more on the negatives than the positives
• I’m happy to point out errors
• I cannot give or receive honest compliments
• I use people when it is convenient – and just expect them to be there
• I prefer escapism through movies, television, video games, roleplaying games, etc.
• I am often an all or nothing type of person
• I always make choices that make me feel special or superior!
• I really do think I’m better than everyone else, unless someone earns my full respect
• I HATE being stuck in traffic – or doing things that are a ‘waste’ of my precious time
• I often put off important tasks because I just don’t feel like it or I’m not in the mood
• Many times I have to rush at the last minute to get things done – no matter how long I had
• I’ve had trouble keeping jobs and maintaining relationships
• I spend a lot of time looking at my reflection
• When I’m overweight, my self-esteem is usually very poor and I don’t even want to be seen
• I’m not USUALLY the one to end relationships – it’s usually the other way around
• When I do break up with someone, I immediately look for a new woman to bond to
• I cannot stand to be alone – but I also really dislike having other people around!
• I’m happiest talking about me and doing things that are important to me at that moment
• I really cannot engage with people in small talk – I’m not good at it because I REALLY don’t care
• I’m alone and lonely most of the time – but people take too much effort and too much energy
• I constantly let people down by failing to follow through on things or keep engagements
• I think my view of the world is the only one that is accurate - anyone who disagrees is an idiot!
• I over inflate my intellectual capabilities
• I hurt people who try to love me

My assumption is that shame is not understood to be a core motivator by the individual until they learn something about NPD

What a list! I can identify some parts of myself there too. I'll try the same thing. It's a good idea.

About that article and the quote above, first off the data was obtained from reports of psychiatrists not from patients who often report vastly differently (according to this paper).

Now how can you learn about shame through a diagnosis of NPD when shame is not part of that diagnosis? I don't see the logic at all. the paper also doesn't mention guilt btw although remorse appears. Neither do the words "lie, lying, deceit, deception,..." appear either, which are also big parts of the picture for you. Apparently NPD is not about lying nor about shame!

Lots of emotions are mentioned though as part of interpersonal vulnerability.

So the two main things you have written about, lying and shame have nothing to do with NPD according to the paper you used to classify yourself.

...lol. Well then - I'm not a narc. That's a huge relief

My lying is more about grandiosity though - I use lies to 'accent' the truth - and then I add lies beneath this false truth in order to prop it up and give it substance.

And shame - that part I can't explain - but since it's covered in countless other NPD articles I'm not going to try. It's definitely a common component for many NPD cases - whether seen here as a diagnostic criteria or not.

Again - I agree that it's interesting. I just don't want to speculate on what it 'means' too much.

That's a long list of mostly negative things, but it's a good starting point. Do you want to try to add some positive points: Anyhwere Here's mine just for comparison:

• I hide! -- this has varied a lot in my life. At present I hide.
• I avoid! -- I avoid certain kinds of things that I'm phobic about, not others.
• I lie! -- I"m more honest than I should be sometimes. It's uncomfortable for me to lie and often I don't see it in other people when it would be obvious to others.
• I cheat! I don't cheat.
• I steal! I don't steal.
• I exaggerate! That's complicated. I over-exaggerate things out of all proportion to the expense of focussing on what's actually important. But I don't exaggerate about myself much.
• I manipulate and control! I wish I was better at manipulation. It can be a useful skill at times.
• I do a lot of things that create drama and draw attention to myself. I have created drama but it wasn't to draw attention to myself.
• I am COMPLETELY SELFISH!!! I should be more selfish at times and less selfish at other..
• I am my own worst critic and harshest judge. Probably this is true for me to. it is hard to be objective about such a statement.
• I have a hard line perfectionist streak. -- It depends on what the issue is.
• I want to be in charge – anything else feels beneath me. -- I really don't care but don't want to be under anyone's thumb either. power is not a big issue.
• I’m too good for most jobs, most companies, and most other people. Most people bore me, it's true.
• The entire world MUST revolve around me – or I get jealous. -- my own world revolves around me in my head. That's enough. jealousy is not part of my makeup.
• If I get jealous of someone I often make them a target of retribution (or dream of it). -- no
• I fantasize about being in charge – of having the world beneath my boot -- no
• I CANNOT take criticism – I usually lash out in response -- criticism can be hard to take. I've gotten better at it. It depends alot on what I think of that person and my own mood at the time.
• I constantly blame everyone else around me for my problems. I tend to blame myself. (aren't you doing this too?)
• I’ve always been entitled – like I’m special and unique, and the world just owes it to me! I know I am pretty unique, but the world doesn't owe me.
• I have absolutely NO integrity whatsoever. -- I don't believe that absolutely part. You wouldn't be wanting to heal if you had no integrity for instance.
• I do NOT respect peoples boundaries. I try to respect people's boundaries. Mostly I haven't enforced my own boundaries well enough.
• I value someone until they ‘wrong’ me and then I lash out -- I've lashed out in the past. I've got much better impulse control as I've aged.
• I’ve even gone so far as to destroy someone else’s career. -- no
• I have terrible impulse control -- see above.
• I have problems with food and weight gain. -- a slight problem.
• I have NO friends to speak of -- pretty close.
• I usually have just one ‘anchor’ person that I rely on for all social interaction. -- big weakness of my life there.
• I have no real sense of empathy -- have to work at it for it to happen.
• People really aren’t people to me. -- It's hard to say what this means.
• I don’t understand emotions. -- I often don't identify my own emotions clearly, then it is hard to see others.
• I see the worst in everyone -- i've missed the worst in people when it would have been obvious to others.
• I expect the worst from everyone. Right now I feel like the world is a dangerous place, mostly because I doubt my judgement, not that I expect the worst from everyone.
• I OBSESS over my perceived mistakes YEARS after they’ve occurred == me too.
• I focus more on the negatives than the positive.-- this depends alot on my mood but that's where i am now.
• I’m happy to point out errors. -- welcome to the club.
• I cannot give or receive honest compliments -- yeah compliments are tough but well appreciated -- it's something that really gets to me though -- an honest compliment.
• I use people when it is convenient – and just expect them to be there. -- no
• I prefer escapism through movies, television, video games, roleplaying games, etc. -- different kind of escapism I guess. Escape into myself?
• I am often an all or nothing type of person. -- yeah, this is also something that's gone down with age.
• I always make choices that make me feel special or superior! -- no
• I really do think I’m better than everyone else, unless someone earns my full respect - no
• I HATE being stuck in traffic – or doing things that are a ‘waste’ of my precious time -no
• I often put off important tasks because I just don’t feel like it or I’m not in the mood - you bet
• Many times I have to rush at the last minute to get things done – no matter how long I had -- of course.
• I’ve had trouble keeping jobs and maintaining relationships -- not exactly.
• I spend a lot of time looking at my reflection -- i spend alot of time looking at a broken mirror.
• When I’m overweight, my self-esteem is usually very poor and I don’t even want to be seen -- i'm ok with my body.
• I’m not USUALLY the one to end relationships – it’s usually the other way around. either way for me.
• When I do break up with someone, I immediately look for a new woman to bond to -- no.
• I cannot stand to be alone – but I also really dislike having other people around! -- i used to hate to be alone and now I am good with it. I'm very particular about who I can have around.
• I’m happiest talking about me and doing things that are important to me at that moment -- aren't we all! No actually I do like to find out about other people, what makes them tick, their likes and dislikes... their quirks...
• I really cannot engage with people in small talk – I’m not good at it because I REALLY don’t care -- that's been a lifelong effort to learn. I am much better at it now even if I don't really care, it's just part of being a social animal -- that's how I see it, like acting 'normal'.
• I’m alone and lonely most of the time – but people take too much effort and too much energy. I'm alone but not so lonely these days. I like solitude.
• I constantly let people down by failing to follow through on things or keep engagements. I'm reliable, that's a core part of my identity. I feel really bad (the worst altogether) if I feel I let someone who I care about down about something that was important to them.
• I think my view of the world is the only one that is accurate - anyone who disagrees is an idiot! Sometimes this is a valid point of view actually. It's important to have convictions, use logic -- that sort of thing. I have learned to listen though. I like to learn new things.
• I over inflate my intellectual capabilities. I'm confident in my intellectual capabilities so no need to overinflate.
• I hurt people who try to love me. I have done that at times. I have also been hurt by making poor choices of who I let in to my personal sphere...

-- Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:38 pm --

Livinginmyhead,

Well I'll frankly state my view point, not just from that paper, but from all that I have read -- which is that the subject of personality disorders is, from a rational scientific viewpoint, a bloody fking mess and I take with a giant grain of salt anything I read or hear about it.

Wow Freyja - first let me say thanks for taking the time to pull that together.

I think this has actually helped me realize something about what triggers me sometimes in these forums. I KNOW that (for the most part) everyone is trying to be helpful here. I really appreciate a lot of the insights that are shared - and the support that I've received. I also hope that by sharing my own internal struggles, others will draw some sense of strength from the reminder that they are not alone.

All of that said though - I think it's the unsolicited 'try this' type of stuff that really gets me angry inside... I am recognizing that I am VERY reactive to anything I see as unsolicited feedback. I've always been this way, but I'm keenly aware of it at the moment.

One of the wonderful things about my SO is that she doesn't try to 'fix' me. She sets boundaries, holds me accountable, actively listens to me, and allows me to come to my own conclusions. She doesn't try to 'fix' my problem for me or tell me how SHE would fix the problem if it were her.

I guess I react a WHOLE LOT better to advice when it's provided in response to a question I've asked or something that I am interested in. Whenever one of you makes an effort to offer advice - that wasn't requested, I immediately see the input as an attack against my delusional sense of being perfect. I then start saying to myself "crazy people on crazy boards don't know what they are talking about" or "show me your psyche-related PHD and maybe I'll listen".

This is ON TOP of the fact that I also have a strong tendency to assign my own assumed motivations to EVERYONE's behaviors. It is a strongly suspicious and paranoid component that says - trust no one. Why? Because I know that I am deceitful and manipulative, so I assume everyone else is to.

Again - I appreciate the feedback and the time you took to add something of value for me. In this case, please note that this was like my day 2 'holy crap' realization list. I'm a bit past this point now... Not much, but a bit... I have other steps I'm taking now to create a list that is more in line with the person I want to be...

So anyway - that's just something I noticed in myself and one reason I probably react poorly to a lot of the advice that is sometimes given... It's not because I mean to be a dick... It's just that old habits die hard

Suppose the real key is not to BS yourself No body but you knows when you do.
All those emotions? Strange messy stuff.

Reminds me of this fellow http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=20290.msg189416#msg189416
Covert Narc with a story and then some..but was BS of course. Brilliant writer. You mentioned earlier all the stories of PTSD and war vet etc....reminded me of this guy. But he was also someone else on the same forum.

Admitting to not having any friends...that would drive a person I suppose to making up characters , who knows? I'd not have thought it possible or see the sense in it till I saw it.

Shame? Hmmmm....yes and no and not necessarily when understood within the possible context.

I'll state categorically that unless otherwise noted I do not consider myself to be giving or receiving advise from anyone on this forum. If I did I would be a lot more circumspect. For me, I take what I like and discard (ignore) what doesn't make sense... You know when I first posted here someone whose name I forget decided I was a troll and took a vote. I laughed and thought, oh that's narcisstic I guess;)

Again - I appreciate the feedback and the time you took to add something of value for me.

I appreciate your saying that. I'll let you know, in the view of not bSing myself, that writing here is good for me, reading what you and others write, I do it for myself, first off. It's as selfish as anything else

freyja wrote:Livinginmyhead posted an article: Refining the Construct of Narcissistic Personality
Disorder: Diagnostic Criteria and Subtypes

on a different thread. it lists 30 criteria that could lead to a diagnosis of NPD according to the DSM and according to their z-score based analysis of discriminating factors.

It's interesting that a word search of that pdf file did not find the word "shame". Fascinating how a dominant emotional experience doesn't enter into any of the 30 factors of diagnosis.

Isn't that weird?

Hey guys, just wanted to jump in and point something out about the article and the probable reason that it doesn't address shame (which is oft discussed in the literature on narcissism.) The article says near the beginning:

"[T]he logistical constraints of field trials (e.g. limited time available for patient assessment, patient contact at only a single time point) limit the number of alternative diagnostic criteria that can be tested and place the diagnostic emphasis on relatively overt signs and symptoms that can be assessed by asking participants direct questions. Overreliance on direct questions may be especially problematic for patients with narcissistic personality disorder, who lack self-awareness or minimize their own psychopathology."

I interpret this as saying, "it's hard to get to the shame because it's, either consciously or unconsciously, well-hidden, and we just don't have the time for that."