Hi, I'm new, and want to bounce some ideas around

Hi everybody my name is Vince. I'm a 25 year old guy with tons of ideas, opinions, and crass speculations concerning psychology, particularly cognitive and evolutionary aspects of it that I'm not qualified to have, as I've no degree or any sort of formal training in the subject. I come by these largely through spending way too much time on the Internet and not nearly enough chasing girls so that one day my mom can have grandkids from both her children. Honestly, the woman won't leave me alone! I hope people here will take my attempts at discussion in the spirit of open and honest dialogue. I'll start off with a brief sketch on but one of the topics on which I have an unqualified opinion.

I believe that religion is evolutionary in nature, that it is an adaptation humans have evolved in order to deal with uncertainty. Uncertainty itself is, what I believe to separate us from the animals, only humans are capable of conceiving of broad, abstract ideas concerning the nature of the realities they live in. In all other respects our cognition is the same as other animals in regards to kind, if not in degree. These broad, abstract realities allow us to make certain higher order predictions, such as analyzing the behavior of other animals like bees, or possible predators. We can abstract an entire world of another person or animal inside our head, and use that model to make predictions. That is what I believe to be the true separator of us from other apes. From this we've created culture, which is an attempt to communicate in the language of these different models.

However, if our brains were allowed to run amok with this sort of distracting activity, we would leave ourselves vulnerable to attacks from other animals or men. So we evolved religion in order to help safeguard us from our own minds. The religion offered us something that our brains would never conjure up on our own, answers. Answers to existential questions that would plague a primitive mind without the benefit of modern schools of philosophy such as ethics. Without some kind of answer to the question, "what is it all for?" we would never have been able to function properly in a dangerous environment, and would have fallen victim to constant warring amongst individuals in tribes. Existential angst often mentally cripples people today, it must have been incredibly harsh on a man whose only social circle involved 30 or so others and is ruled by the threat of violence. So religion gave us a way to trick ourselves into focusing on the present instead of the concept of broader meaning.

Religion today provides us with the same balm. It provides meaning to people, allowing them to focus on the present, giving them a reason to do what evolution wants them to do. Religion is but a higher evolution of instinct. Instinct evolved in order to allow an animal to function, it takes away the choice of how to react in certain situations. Humans still have instincts, of course, but they've largely been subsumed by religion.

What does this tell us, personally? That religion, while it cannot be used to describe reality or the universe, has a place in the proper functioning of a human being. Studies show that people who believe in religion are happier on average. People just function better when they believe in a higher power.

What does this mean for atheists? Unfortunately, this means that we will always be in the minority. Religion evolved to solve a basic problem with the way our brains work. Only a similarly-scaled functionality evolution of the brain would eliminate the need for an uncertainty-obviating mechanism.

It does mean that we are right. There is no God, no spirit, and nothing that could be explained outside the natural laws. If the entirety of religion can be boiled down to evolution, Occam's Razor demands that we discard entities regarding metaphysical explanations. It could be proven by finding the genes for religion. If we could turn them off and produce atheists consistently, that would be the final nail in the coffin. Naturally, that won't be the end of theism, because we'd have to turn all the genes on everybody off to do that. People will still believe, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. They're programmed to.

It also means that religion isn't evil. So many of the atheists I meet are hostile towards religion. I don't understand the attitude myself. It's the way people function. Why rail so hard against a basic fact of human nature? Atheists are going to have to learn how to get along with theists, and accept the fact that they will forever be the minority and that they will continue to never get any respect for their refusal to just shut up and believe.

Some might argue, "Well, if it's genetics, it should be heritable, right? Plenty of atheists come from religious parents, and it looks to be squarely on the side of nurture, not nature." While I'm sure there are slight differences in the expressions of the religiosity genes, I believe that everybody, including atheists, contains the genetic code. Plenty of atheists recant later, particularly on their deathbeds. Atheism may be related to a "rebelliousness" genetic expression. The rebelliousness of youth might itself have genetic origin, a topic for another discussion. I've heard plenty of atheists that have experiences which a religious person would call religious in nature. The atheists just use different language to describe those experiences. Also it's probable that the genetic code doesn't distinguish between atheism and theism, and affects both in exactly the way it was intended to function. It just so happens that atheists use different words to describe their faith. Faith in this case being the genetic imperative to disregard existential questions, disallowing the angst that it engenders from infecting their minds.

I agree, religion is evolutionary in nature. And yes, abstract thinking and everything resulting from is the main difference between us and apes. By the way, I just passed an extensive exam on the theory of evolution, so it's quite fun discussing this.

However, I don't think atheism is separate from religion. Lets not use the word religion, lets use the word "belief system", I mean, it's a synonym right? Some people believe in christianity, others in buddhism, some in science and logic (= atheism). I don't think atheism is anti-religion, I think it's just another niche among many different belief systems and that evolution has created this niche (just as it has created every other belief system out there). You said that atheists disregard existential questions, but I'd argue that too. Existentialism is a philosophy and many atheists are keen on discussing such topics. So am I. For example, existentialist literature is something I enjoy. I just offer different answers to the questions proposed.

I must say I'm one of those who believe religion is rooted in nurture not nature, but it seems that almost every aspect of human nature can at least partly be "blamed" on our genes so everything's possible.

I have to concur with BlueJ regarding atheism. Besides, atheism is simply the rejection of a claim. It doesn't tell us anything about what the person believes, and it seems presumptious that an atheist would have no interest in the existential. It's one thing to consider possibilities, it's another to live your life by a set of values based on a god.

I was just reading something on how religion might be a evolutionary left over. I remember reading Dawkins and how he described the way a moth will fly into a candle flame. The moth hasn't evolved to hurtle itself into fires, but it did evolve to use stars as a navigational tool. It's behavior was just an unexpected consequence of that.

We already know that we can recreate so called religious experiences in the brain. Secularists have done this via meditation. There is also something called the God Helmet as well.

The reason so many atheists are hostile toward religion is that it can be harmful. This is not to say that religion in itself is evil. However, there are those who wish impose their religious beliefs unto others. They attempt to make laws and use it to excuse bigotry. It is a strong belief that strongly influences people's actions, and yet there is no subtantial evidence to believe such claims.

I'm not sure where you're from, but in the United States there is a strong push from Christian Fundementalism to enact laws based on the bible. We're a secular country and we shouldn't be basing law on any religion. There are those who want Creationism taught alongside Evolution in biology class. That sort of thing does bother me, because it is willingfully attempting to misinform.

BlueJ. wrote:Lets not use the word religion, lets use the word "belief system", I mean, it's a synonym right?

I don't think so. I think a religion specifically includes beliefs concerning the ultimate, divine, transcendent. Whereas a belief system can include any collection of beliefs tied together, an example would be materialism. You can't call materialism a religion. Neither could you call postmodernism (*shudder*) religion. But they are both belief systems. A religion is far more of a social activity than a belief system is. It encompasses much more of life.

Religion acts as a safegaurd for keeping law and order during dark ages when there is none, so I'm all for it sticking around just in case someone drops the bomb.

Okay, maybe "belief system" wasn't exactly what I meant, but I still don't think atheist is an antonym for believer. When you say "religion" people think "something to do with god". Atheism deals with the belief in god (in whatever form) and/or higher power. But unlike other religions the belief is that there's no such thing.
It's kind of like the evolutionary process of humans - all other animals are subjected to adaption and natural selection, but not humans. We're animals allright, but at the same time we operate on completely different terms and darwinism is highly lost on us. But that situation is just an exception confirming the rule, like atheism amongst all other religions - it occupies a very distinct niche. *thinks* Actually I'd say atheism is something like that subspecies stage in evolution - it isn't quite the original species anymore (religion) but it hasn't really converted into a new species either.

sublyp wrote:Religion acts as a safegaurd for keeping law and order during dark ages when there is none, so I'm all for it sticking around just in case someone drops the bomb.

...And some religions promote the idea of heaven (or hell) on Earth. Someone might drop the bomb simply to because they see the apocalypse as an inevitable and biblical truth. There are even government workers who see no reason to address something such as global warming because after all, that must be God's plan.

BlueJ. wrote:Okay, maybe "belief system" wasn't exactly what I meant, but I still don't think atheist is an antonym for believer. When you say "religion" people think "something to do with god". Atheism deals with the belief in god (in whatever form) and/or higher power. But unlike other religions the belief is that there's no such thing.
It's kind of like the evolutionary process of humans - all other animals are subjected to adaption and natural selection, but not humans. We're animals allright, but at the same time we operate on completely different terms and darwinism is highly lost on us. But that situation is just an exception confirming the rule, like atheism amongst all other religions - it occupies a very distinct niche. *thinks* Actually I'd say atheism is something like that subspecies stage in evolution - it isn't quite the original species anymore (religion) but it hasn't really converted into a new species either.

If atheist isn't the antonym for theist, then what would be the antonym?

BlueJ. wrote:Okay, maybe "belief system" wasn't exactly what I meant, but I still don't think atheist is an antonym for believer. When you say "religion" people think "something to do with god". Atheism deals with the belief in god (in whatever form) and/or higher power.

Atheism has nothing to do with God, sorry. Baldness is not just another hairstyle. Your thinking very God-centricly. (probably not a bad thing in your opinion if your a christian??)

and science and logic is not a belief system O_o

mata_hari wrote:...And some religions promote the idea of heaven (or hell) on Earth. Someone might drop the bomb simply to because they see the apocalypse as an inevitable and biblical truth. There are even government workers who see no reason to address something such as global warming because after all, that must be God's plan.

yeah....oh well.